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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:53 am 
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The sound is coming from the bellhousing which points to the clutch or flywheel so I would be pulling the gearbox off and starting my investigation there. I know what a pig of a job it is (I've had the gearbox off a few times on my Dolomite 1300 and it was bad enough on the non-OD box). It sounds like something's rubbing so there should be some tell tale evidence once you have it all apart. The alternative would be to see if everything beds in once you can start using the car on the road. It would be better to start your investigations while you have the tunnel off. I'm wondering if the clutch plate or release bearing have been fitted the wrong way round. I once fitted a release bearing the wrong way round on an Acclaim which made the clutch heavy. Have you tried to drive the car at all rather than just running the engine with the car stationary?

Edit: Just been going through this thread and I'm wondering if the flywheel is rubbing on the engine backplate bolts or if the engine backplate bolts haven't been fully tightened up. With the gearbox off, you should be able to check for clearance. With it all apart there will be some wear marks if this is indeed the cause of your problem.
Hi thanks for your reply the gearbox has been off twice the first time was to fix a leak on the crankshaft oil seal and replace the clutch. The second was to investigate the noise.

The box was checked over by Jonners with no issues. There where no signs of contact on the back of the flywheel or the bolt heads on the engine adaptor plate.

Everything on the clutch has been removed and refitted. The clutch feels very good quite light and the car has been moved forwards and backwards, all be it only a few feet in the lock up with no probs/ no obvious difficulties.

Agree the noise is around the bell housing which is why i then suspected the starter and a possible clearance issue. The original was refitted with its spacer and a new one was purchased to remedy the noise but no real difference was found save for the new one possibly being slightly quieter.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:50 am 
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It should be possible to fit the starter motor with the gearbox removed if you use shorter bolts. That way, you can see what's going on there with the engine running.

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Meetings take place on the 1st Wednesday of every month at The Hollies Sports & Social Club, 12 Hough Lane, Bramley, Leeds, LS13 3NE
1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - The rolling restoration)
2008 Citroën C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 HDi Exclusive (MA08 WCL - the modern)
Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

Check my blog at http://triumphtoledo.blogspot.com

"I can help you stop smoking in bed. Buy a water bed and fill it with petrol." - Bob Monkhouse OBE (1928-2003)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 9:18 pm 
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It should be possible to fit the starter motor with the gearbox removed if you use shorter bolts. That way, you can see what's going on there with the engine running.
Thats a sensible suggestion just need to get the drive to remove the gearbox for the third time in 7 months and actually succesfully identify the source of the noise this time maybe 3rd time lucky.

Removing the box this time will have to wait until after completion of body work and respray as its in the body shop from the 30th December. Getting her back all shiny will give me the oomph to get over the line.

In the meantime anyone with a quick fix idea that saves me taking off the box again.......


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:36 am 
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I'm not able to view/listen to your videos,so haven't heard the noise.
I had a noise on my 1850 which turned out to be caused by wear on the pegs which the clutch release arm swivels on. I found it by accident when I lightly placed my foot on the clutch pedal whilst driving causing the noise to go away.This must have been just enough to take up the wear without the bearing being pushed against the pressure plate.
It is possible to turn the pegs through 90 degrees to eliminate the wear.
Mine did it worse when warmed up,and was really quite loud.
Listening around the release arm area,pressing the clutch pedal lightly or actually looking for wear on the pegs should tell you if this is the problem or not.
Best I can come up with I'm afraid...

Good luck with it.

James


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:06 pm 
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I'm not able to view/listen to your videos,so haven't heard the noise.
I had a noise on my 1850 which turned out to be caused by wear on the pegs which the clutch release arm swivels on. I found it by accident when I lightly placed my foot on the clutch pedal whilst driving causing the noise to go away.This must have been just enough to take up the wear without the bearing being pushed against the pressure plate.
It is possible to turn the pegs through 90 degrees to eliminate the wear.
Mine did it worse when warmed up,and was really quite loud.
Listening around the release arm area,pressing the clutch pedal lightly or actually looking for wear on the pegs should tell you if this is the problem or not.
Best I can come up with I'm afraid...

Good luck with it.

James
Thanks for your post unfortunately the noise remains no matter what happens with the clutch pedal. Its a metal contacting metal sound fairly high pitched.

Just dont want to strip it out to once again find nothing wrong fit it all back together and it still be present like this time.

Still hopefully running it without the box on will with luck show any potential issue.

Fair to say its doing my head in at the mo. There is also a smell of burning which I had pit down to the new stainless down pipe and jointing paste settling down but it is still evident. Not overly strong and definately not the same as clutch burning


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:19 pm 
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Hi Rob, This is the interesting video / sound clip. There are 2 things. Does the noise actually disappear when you rev; the engine or is it an artifact of the audio automatic-level-control on the recording device.
It also doesn't seem to follow engine revs; in frequency. I would expect the noise to go higher in frequency with increased engine revs. To my ears it sounds a constant pitch. Wierd.
Even more so is when you re-start the engine after stopping it. Each time the noise doesn't start for a good 1/2 second after the starter has finished cranking. This odd noise is not there when the engine is cranking over ! Is it ?
So can you try something else please when you get a mo. Start with a well charged battery. Remove the spark plugs and disconnect the L.T. lead from the coil. ( Stops the sparking) . The idea is to get the engine turning over as fast as possible on the starter.
Now is the noise still there when cold ?
If not, I'm thinking of the starter cog just being in mesh with the flywheel when the noise is there but taking a good 1/2 second to retract. It doesn't make a noise when turning over as the starter cog is fully meshed. As to why it occurs on 2 starters I don't know.
But it occurred to me the flywheel may be sitting further back due to worn thrust washers. The 1850's are not known for thrust washer wear, but could you make an estimate of the fore/ aft movement of the crankshaft please ?
Again I would have thought pressing the clutch would have modified the noise.
A mystery.
It would be really nice to have that starter out again and try starting it. Perhaps with a ratcheting rattle gun on the crank pulley ?
Tony.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:46 pm 
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I just watched all the videos and I'm not even sure it is coming from the starter or bell housing even.
It sounds induction pulse related so I'm wondering if it could be an air leak on the carb mounts.

This would explain why it goes away or lessens when its warm and revving higher.

Anything transmission related is affected by revs and clutch pedal position and load.

This noise isn't like that, although I accept its not easy to tell from video.

Try isolating the noise more by running a long length of tube from one ear to various areas and focus on the carb to manifold joints.

Jonners

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:06 pm 
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I just watched all the videos and I'm not even sure it is coming from the starter or bell housing even.
It sounds induction pulse related so I'm wondering if it could be an air leak on the carb mounts.

This would explain why it goes away or lessens when its warm and revving higher.

Anything transmission related is affected by revs and clutch pedal position and load.

This noise isn't like that, although I accept its not easy to tell from video.

Try isolating the noise more by running a long length of tube from one ear to various areas and focus on the carb to manifold joints.

Jonners
Hi Jon

I tried using a piece of hose but still couldnt nail down the location of the noise. I didnt check round the carb mounts though so will have a crack at that but the noisiest place to be with regard to the noise is under the sump toward the flywheel the noise seems to be loudest here probably due to the thinness of the sump in comparison to block or bell housing but definately loudest under the car or from in the car behind the gearbox.

As Tony states the noise doesnt really change much with the revs just when the car is nearly warmed up the noise becomes intermittent and can return with revving the engine. But when fully warmed up the noise disappears. Which fits with as you say something like the carb mounts.

On the lower two bolts of the rear oil seal housing that are longer the left one snapped was removed helicoiled and sorted could there be contact on the thrust washer somehow through this mishap/rectification or are the lower holes blind to the crankcase?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Tracking down sound problems are a pain, especially with the engine noise.

I have the same problem at work occasionally with electronic components making high pitch noises, even the stethoscope doesn't help till you nail down the culprit.

You may find it easier to narrow down if you use a heavy rubber mat or carpet mat, lay over a section and check for noise reduction, or wrap around each item you suspect.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:30 pm 
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If you want to run it without the starter motor in place,you could try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI46qVW2WA4

It might work,especially with the engine warm.

James


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:09 pm 
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Slight change today in that I started the engine and this time all was quiet for around 30 seconds before the noise reappeared.

Was a little chattery under drive in first gear as i drove it into the bodyshop. Where hopefully she will come out gleaming smart

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:09 pm 
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I listened to the "intermittent" video and it reminded me of when I converted my automatic Triumph 2000 to manual and made the mistake of using the slightly longer Auto bolts to hold the manual flywheel to the crank. All was well to start with but within a few days it started making a noise like that. However, unlike that, it went up and down with engine speed so I don't think the flywheel is loose.
What I do think is that it may well be related to either the alternator or the viscous coupling on the fan and this is easy to check, just whip off the fanbelt and see if the noise is still there.

Steve

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:31 pm 
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Steve, the 1850 doesn't have a viscous coupling. I've watched the vids and the noise is definitely coming from the vicinity of the bellhousing so the problem is either the clutch/flywheel or the starter motor. Either way, the gearbox needs to come off.

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Toledo Man

West Yorkshire Area Organiser & forum moderator
Meetings take place on the 1st Wednesday of every month at The Hollies Sports & Social Club, 12 Hough Lane, Bramley, Leeds, LS13 3NE
1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - The rolling restoration)
2008 Citroën C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 HDi Exclusive (MA08 WCL - the modern)
Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

Check my blog at http://triumphtoledo.blogspot.com

"I can help you stop smoking in bed. Buy a water bed and fill it with petrol." - Bob Monkhouse OBE (1928-2003)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:47 pm 
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Following driving her into the bodyshop a couple of weeks ago the mysterious noise has disappeared. First of all instead of coming on at start up it started happening after around 60 seconds from start up and now on the last 3 occasions nothing at all. Very strange hopefully whatever it was has settled down now.

After bending my work car that had to be repaired first so no progress on VGK yet save for stripping the spoiler and dealing with surface rust on the front valance.

Hopefully work will begin next week and i will have some update photos over the next few weeks


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:31 pm 
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Rear quarter is off

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