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 Post subject: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:11 pm 
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Location: Caithness, Scotland
Thinking of a project for next winter or the one after...........converting a Dolomite 1850 to fuel injection.
I already have the bootlid badge :D .

At least a few TDC members have successfully done this, Jeroen on a LHD 1850 using USA spec TR7 efi
and Stag76 in Australia on a TR7 Sprint and Paulsprint on a Sprint.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16859






Image
What I am interested in is improving fuel efficiency.

As a test car using CVT Tony MacKillop's R reg 1850 achieved 50 mpg (and that was with SU carbs).
This is the kind of figure I would like to achieve. With various improvements including a Type 9 gearbox
my car can manage over 40 mpg.


There is a confusingly huge amount on the internet about different conversions
so I am looking for some pointers as to which way to go please.......

Fuel tank and fuel pump?
Is it better to keep these separate and employ a swirl tank or go for a tank with an integral pump.
I quite like the latter option as it will take up less space overall and furthermore like the idea of a plastic tank.
The Dolomite tank has 12.5 gallons capacity but I would happily use a smaller one,
I am considering the Rover Mini (7.5 gal) but these are steel. Any suggestions for makes or models?

Inlet manifold.....
1850 or TR7? I am thinking the latter because the throttle bodies/adapters could be swapped onto a Sprint manifold at a later date.
That would mean employing two throttle bodies. Jenvey do these and HS6 adapters.


Which ECU? I am thinking Megasquirt.

Which injectors?

What size of throttle bodies?
Is it better to have the injectors tapped into the throttle bodies or in the inlet manifold?


I have some many more other questions but think that should do now :)



Thanks,

Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:16 pm 
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There was a sprint advertised using Ford XR3i about 12 years ago in the Alton (Hants) area.
I have an article from CCC magazine from the 90's where a beige Sprint also using parts from XR3 claimed 30+ mpg and 150 bhp.
Frankly I have no idea why the silly management of BL did not do the mod themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:10 pm
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bl was to busy waiting for the rover group takeover and we all know the story since then,bl too slow to act and move forward

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Dolomite 1300,1980`V`reg in british racing brown(russet),3.63 diff with 21t speedo pinion,95%poly`d,HL clocks,standard wheels with SE covers wrapt in 175 70 13,mot`d 19-09-2014,been off the since 1990,(july2017) stainless steel exhaust 3-piece.

Dolomite 1300,1977(tax free 1-1-1977),`R`reg in carmine red,bog standard including rust :shock: last time on road 6-2005


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
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Location: Highley, Shropshire
A few tips and suggestions.

Fuel tank and pump, I am still using the original tank on the Carledo, with a remote pump and NO swirl pot. "Everybody" said it would never work without a swirl pot but it has been faultless for 4 years now though I am careful to always keep a good level of fuel in the tank so that the pump is below the fuel level in the tank which is (I believe) the critical point. To improve this I have considered a TR6 tank which holds about 10 gallons (more than the 8.5 of the standard Toledo) and fits somewhat higher, transversely across the axle tunnel. This would then allow a high pressure pump to be fitted at boot floor level (as mine is) which would always be below the tank fuel level. This is how it works in a Tr6 PI which also has no swirl pot. The only downside to the remote pump is that, at least in my case, its infernally noisy, even though it is rubber mounted. On the upside, if I can't hear it running, I know what's wrong!

Manifold, for ease of fitting, I would go for the US spec TR7 injection manifold (even if you have to import one) and use whatever throttle body goes with it, the same for injectors and fuel rail. Don't forget you will need some sort of fuel pressure regulator and a fuel return pipe to the tank. For best efficiency, the injectors need to be in the manifold as close to the head as possible and angled in, at least a bit.

ECU, Megasquirt is as good as any and there is plenty of data available on how to make it work. I would also fit a megajolt with the Ford EDIS, it would be rude not to, although a 123 dizzy would be almost as good.

Finally, on fuel consumption, the Carledo averages near enough 36mpg on mostly rural roads and driven pretty hard. On the motorway at a steady 80ish I reckon it gets about 45 but I haven't had occaision or opportunity to check this accurately. This with the 130ish BHP Vauxhall injected engine on stock CAV SRi map with 5 speed Omega gearbox (overdriven 5th), 3.45:1 Sprint axle and 195/50/15 rear tyres. According to the rev counter I am doing 3100 RPM at 80mph true (checked by satnav)

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:01 pm 
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I'm in the process of converting mine. Using megasquirt ecu. The loom and ecu have been in the car for years running the ignition only. Will be finished later this year


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Last edited by Toledo Man on Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Resized the photo.
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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:21 pm 
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Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
There was a sprint advertised using Ford XR3i about 12 years ago in the Alton (Hants) area.
I have an article from CCC magazine from the 90's where a beige Sprint also using parts from XR3 claimed 30+ mpg and 150 bhp.
Frankly I have no idea why the silly management of BL did not do the mod themselves.
There was also a green Toledo with Sprint power and the XR3s K Jetronic injection system. I saw it in the tin at TDCIR at Cholmondely about 3 years ago and then later on ebay. I believe it was bought by a forum member but ISTR he was having some running issues and then all went quiet. Can't remember who it was.
I guess BL didn't use the Jetronic on the Sprint cos it didn't even appear on the Escort till 1984 and they would have had to pay Bosch's crippling royalties to use it if it had been available earlier.

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:02 am 
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paulsprint, nice looking set up there. Are the throttle bodies/ injectors denso from nissan or similar? They look the part there :)

I have been wondering about this as a conversion too but thinking along the lines of using an ecu from a similar powered car and include the injectors map sensor and crank position sensors etc so the ecu "thinks" its running its original set up. Lambda feedback of course as OEM would have.

Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:21 am 
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Have a peek at the sideways forum. Nick Jones (brilliant bloke in all senses) converted his vitesse years ago, and is currently working on a spitfire conversion.
He uses a plenium and single TB, linked to MS (MS runs fuel and ignition)

Get as many ideas as you can, very quickly you start to see the difference between "good" and "poorly thought out" conversions.

I am guessing the TR7 injection inlet uses a single TB. Once that is sorted everything else across all conversions is pretty much the same.

My Spitfire is running a pair of Jenvey TB's on a weber inlet, and run by DTA management (horribly expensive, but very good. Got is for a fraction of new cost from a written off kitcar) but MS is very functional and should be ideal. If you want to spend more then emerald or omex are good choices. If I had to build from scratch I would use a single TB and plenium. Slightly less power, better road manners and economy.

As to fuel tank, you may find a suitable replacement from modern car. I have fitted a Golf pump, with built in swirl pot, into my spitfire tank. Needed a plate welding to the tank, so not easy. Still hear it, but quieter than an external pump. TR6 tank may be a good call?? Ebay should provide pics, but I fear most tanks are now very much oddball shapes to package nicely into the car they are designed for, rather than nice squares or whatever.

ave a good dig about, more info means you will end up with a better thought out system.

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Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:25 am 
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Quote:
I have been wondering about this as a conversion too but thinking along the lines of using an ecu from a similar powered car and include the injectors map sensor and crank position sensors etc so the ecu "thinks" its running its original set up. Lambda feedback of course as OEM would have.

Tony
That will not work at all well. Think about using the carbs and dizzy from a 2 litre cortina on your car. The dizzy would have the wrong advance curve, the fuel mixture would be completely wrong too and need re-jetting.

Now think how different a modern engine is to our old ones, in terms of CR, cams and head design. Nothing like ours at all.

Yo need an ecu that can be mapped to your engine.

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Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:03 pm 
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Bad Obsession Motorsport (they of Project Binky fame) offer Link ECUs which might be a possible alternative to Megasquirt. Could be worth considering.

Also, on some of the Mighty Car Mods videos on YouTube they use Haltech ECUs on some of their mods. That might be worth looking into as well. Their website is HERE

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Meetings take place on the 1st Wednesday of every month at The Hollies Sports & Social Club, 12 Hough Lane, Bramley, Leeds, LS13 3NE
1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - The rolling restoration)
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Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Link ecu's are top money prob no change from 700 quid these days

Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:52 pm 
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Quote:
Fuel tank and fuel pump?
It's down to what fits and what's least expensive. I'm not sure where you'd put the pump is the main thing really. On Neil's car we've put an escort fuel tank above the axle leaving lots of space to put the pump. If it's outside the tank it wants to be low (you only need to muck about with swirl pots and lift pumps if you can't get the pump in a sensible place)

You could probably fit something sensible and modern into a standard dolly tank if you wanted to.
Quote:
Inlet manifold.....
1850 or TR7? I am thinking the latter because the throttle bodies/adapters could be swapped onto a Sprint manifold at a later date.
That would mean employing two throttle bodies. Jenvey do these and HS6 adapters.
I went for bike throttle bodies and injectors onto the standard (sprint) manifold. A set of bodies, injectors, pressure reg, TPS, and MAP sensor off a bike (have a look at something like a suzuki tl1000) is about £50. If you're looking at the very shiny things Jenvey do then make sure you're sitting down when you look at the prices. The significant disadvantage of doing that is it's all got silly Japanese plugs on.
Quote:
Which ECU? I am thinking Megasquirt.
Whichever one does what you need it to do and can be set up by someone you trust to do it.
I use VEMS on my TVR
Quote:
Is it better to have the injectors tapped into the throttle bodies or in the inlet manifold?
If you can get them right into the ports there are some small gains to be had (mostly at idle) by spraying directly onto the back of a closed inlet valve, at higher rpm you'd want them further away. The better the spray pattern on the injectors the less important it is.


What cam are you using?


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:21 pm 
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I actually have a TR6 tank and should be able to offer it up to my Sprint shell. If it looks like a reasonable proposition i'll take some pics.

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dolomite PI.....?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:05 pm 
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I've used a set of 42mm bike throttle bodies,these have been spaced out and pressed into a pair of dcoe flanges. These will now bolt straight onto a Webber sprint manifold. The inlet side I've made some flanges and welded them on. This was to allow me to bolt the 120mm horns and airbox on. As for the fuel. I have a swirl pot by the side of the spare wheel. This is fed from the tank with facet low pressure pump. The high pressure side is fed using a Bosch pump as used on the old Astra gte's. These are great pumps with a good flow rate. The ingnition is wasted spark controlled direct from the Ecu The Ecu is mega squirt ms2, which are quite cheap. The system is closed loop running a wide band lambra sensor,so the system will semi map it's self. Well adjust the curling to meet my fueling table. Once up and running properly. I will change the Ecu to ms3. This will allow direct speed control of the electric water pump and water temp Gauge

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 Post subject: Yes indeed....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:42 pm 
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:D Thanks for the input so far everyone.
There is much to think about.
Need to go one step at a time....I'll start by looking for a suitable fuel tank.


Quote:
There was a sprint advertised using Ford XR3i about 12 years ago in the Alton (Hants) area.
I have an article from CCC magazine from the 90's where a beige Sprint also using parts from XR3 claimed 30+ mpg and 150 bhp.
Frankly I have no idea why the silly management of BL did not do the mod themselves.
Aye Jon I remember reference to such a machine from that time, it didn't run so good which was seemingly due to not being able to use the XR3i plenum?
So that may be three such cars that were converted?
Actually, BL did produce slant four engine production EFI cars, namely the USA bound TR7. However this set up won't fit a RHD Dolomite (or TR7).




thanks,

Ian.

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Last edited by sprint95m on Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
spelling mistake!!


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