The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

The Number One Club for owners of Triumph's range of small saloons from the 1960s and 1970s.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
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Location: Wellington NZ
Hi All

I have a history with Triumphs - a mk1 saloon and currently own my second stag

Ive decided to save a 1971 Toledo from certain destruction when I saw it on Face book. I had only 4 photos to go on and now that I have actually got it back to the house it is somewhat worse for wear than the photos indicated - as I expected – but that’s OK – I only paid $500 for it and was expecting it to be at the least a little shabby.

I gave it a good clean yesterday and already it looks better.

Body wise the core shell looks to be OK although I haven’t looked at the sills to closely. The doors and the boot all have a bit of rust in the bottoms of them. Im hoping this is only the skins and that repairing then shouldn’t be too difficult. (once I have taught myself to weld)

The left hand front wing looks ok but the driver’s side wing is a bit of a mess – not sure if it is salvageable or not. Also the front upper valance is fairly frilly as well. For the front valance and the right front wing I think I’m going to need new panels or panels from a wrecked car. Or the other option may be to do merge two cars into one.
Ive yet to find any one who makes new panels - the usual suspects don't have them

I’ve yet to work out what state the motor is in. Fortunately the interior is in pretty good shape although it has ignition /steering column parts missing.

This weekend Im going to see what the underneath is like and see what state of the engine is in. I cant attempt to start it till I get some keys and the ignition sorted out but will be interesting to see what state the motor is in.

I know of other Toledo's in various states around the country so hopefully I will be able to get enough bits together to create one car!

Once I have a good picture of the state of the car I will decide if it is worth persevering with.

Ill keep you informed

cheers

Alastair Cox

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Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
Posts: 48
Location: Wellington NZ
Hi All

Im getting a bamboozled by talk of 1 rail or three 3 rail gearboxes and the like....

Im trying to come up with a spec for my Toledo.

As per most people Im looking to create a useable, practical fast road Toledo, possibly capable of whizzing up a hill or a bit of lite motor sport but reliability is the key thing.

However it needs to be based around a New Zealand spec 1500 engine which I believe is the same as the spitfire in terms of cam shaft etc. I will probably add the usual go fast bits to the engine in due course. 1850 and sprint motors are rare out here and I am happy with a nicely running 1500(for now).

The engine is a 1971 1500 engine in standard (NZ spec form)

I want to incorporate an overdrive gearbox and if possible increase the gearing a little by using a 1850 back end.

Could some one send me a spec as to what bits, gearbox back and etc etc I will need to achieve this. And from what cars. bear in mind that sprints and 1850s are rare out here but spitfire bits are far more easily available

Which bits should i be using from which cars to achieve the spec car i want to create?


many thanks

Alastair Cox

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Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4709
Location: Highley, Shropshire
I'm aware of the 1500 NZ spec Toledo (though i've obviously never seen one) My Toledo shop manual lists both single and twin carb options with 1500 engine (AND a 1300TC too!) so it would help to know which one you have.

The stock Toledo diff for the UK market was 4.11 (Toledo is 1300 ONLY in UK) UK 1500 cars (Dolomite, 1500TC etc) got a 3.89 or later the 3.63 which is also shared with the 1850 Dolly and 1500 Spitfire All diffs fit in the same case so an upgrade is easy. Even a Spit diff will fit if you cut the mounting bracket off the front and unbolt the rear case and stub shafts. Only the Sprint's 3.45 diff won't fit without swapping the whole case as the Sprint diff is a rear loading "Salisbury" type.

Single rail versus 3 rail gearbox. Most UK Toledos have the earlier design of 3 rail box with reverse left of 1st gear. The single rail box is a later addition, has reverse to the right of 3rd gear and is shared with 1300, 1500HL and 1850HL Dolomite, 1300 Marina, 1500 Midget and last model MKIV 1300 and all 1500 Spitfires. (And TR7 4 speed)

Before giving advice, it would help to know what spec your car has as standard, so it would help to know single or twin carb, single or 3 rail box (where is reverse?) and the current diff ratio, this I can determine for you from the alpha/numeric code on the bottom face of the diff.

But the cleverest improvers in the UK who have fitted uprated 1300 or 1500 engines in Toledos seem to think the combo that works best is to go for an overdrive box and keep the UK standard 4.11 axle. This keeps it quick though the gears with a nice low 1st yet gives it cruising legs and better economy.

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:23 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
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Location: Wellington NZ
Hi
As is usually the case (from my Sunbeam Imp/ Hillman Imp days) what we got out here as far as the range of triumph cars is concerned was a bit of a mix and match of what was available in England

My Toledo (White Car) is a single carb 1500. It has reverse up to the left beside 1st which would make it a 3 rail gearbox? (Im pretty sure it is - I will check on that tonight) Is the later gearbox better/stronger?

I believe the diff is standard to the car so probably 4.11 (put it this way: there's nothing to suggest it isnt stock given that the rest of the car is stock). I will get under the car tonight and see if I can find a number.

I like the sound of keeping the standard back end and putting in an overdrive g/box (I would have thought you would be been "doubling up" by putting in both an od box and a higher geared diff)

Bear in mind that this is all from the white car which will end up being stripped.

I'm certain that green car (The car I am going to restore and which is getting the engine from the parts car) is the same standard spec. I couldn't get into the green car or get the bonnet open so its best guess stuff at this stage.


Thanks would be great if you come up with a spec now and then I can begin gathering parts

cheers

Alastair

_________________
Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
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Location: Wellington NZ
A possible spec for my Toledo

Body: pretty much standard, sprint front air dam
Suspension: slightly lowered uprated springs,(rimmers) uprated shocks, poly bushes, front arb
Interior: standard apart from: spitfire tachometer, smith fuel gauge, oil /temp gauge, revived and slightly darkened dashboard, adjustable seats from the Toledo with the adjustable seats(!),
stereo, 2500S steering wheel
Wheels: Minilites (local version of) x 175 tyres
Engine: 1500 (uprated camshaft), 45DCOE weber carb, freeflow manifold of some type, 123 distributor, after market electric fuel pump
Electrical: spotlights, better quality headlights etc
Cooling: standard – will see how it behaves in the summer but may get thermostatically controlled fan or re cored radiator, front oil cooler
Drivetrain: over drive gearbox (to be confirmed), standard back axle
Brakes: local version of cracker jack if one can be created, rear standard uprated pads

Any thing that I have missed out? Please add comments or ideas

_________________
Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:45 pm 
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TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4709
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
A possible spec for my Toledo

Body: pretty much standard, sprint front air dam
Suspension: slightly lowered uprated springs,(rimmers) uprated shocks, poly bushes, front arb
Interior: standard apart from: spitfire tachometer, smith fuel gauge, oil /temp gauge, revived and slightly darkened dashboard, adjustable seats from the Toledo with the adjustable seats(!),
stereo, 2500S steering wheel
Wheels: Minilites (local version of) x 175 tyres
Engine: 1500 (uprated camshaft), 45DCOE weber carb, freeflow manifold of some type, 123 distributor, after market electric fuel pump
Electrical: spotlights, better quality headlights etc
Cooling: standard – will see how it behaves in the summer but may get thermostatically controlled fan or re cored radiator, front oil cooler
Drivetrain: over drive gearbox (to be confirmed), standard back axle
Brakes: local version of cracker jack if one can be created, rear standard uprated pads

Any thing that I have missed out? Please add comments or ideas
Sounds fairly comprehensive, all I might add is a little gentle porting/port matching of the head and a bit of a skim. Just a couple of tips, with your supply chain, a 1500 Spit single rail O/D box is probably going to be the easiest to source, you will need a few extra bits, an overdrive Dolomite gearbox mount, a 1500 Dolomite propshaft (o/d or direct will fit), you will need the flywheel and clutch from the Spitfire as the clutch spline and clutch SIZE differs and you will likely have to move the gearchange lever hole in the tunnel aft a couple of inches. Or you could be EXTREMELY lucky and get hold of a SpitIII 3 rail O/D box which will let you use the original flywheel and clutch but needs a relay to work it's D type overdrive. The club can now supply a stainless 4 branch manifold for your engine so that will help, it's not cheap, but if you're considering a 123 and a big Weber, you're obviously not on THAT tight a budget! I'm quite a fan of the big single DCOE myself on this engine.

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:17 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
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Location: Wellington NZ
Hi Thanks for that, sounds good I'll start keeping an eye open for the spitfire gearbox etc. I think it will be an ongoing rolling restoration as far as engine upgrade I will probably run on standard to start with and slowly uprate it although Id like to get the o/d gearbox situation sorted before getting it running so I don't have to do that twice.

Initial assessment of the engine indicates it should run ok hopefully. Im getting my mechanic to lift it and the gearbox out so hopefully he can do a compression test at the same time.

Given that the tyres will need to be replaced I might have to bite the bullet and get the minilites fairly early on in the process.

Have been meaning to get on with the strip down in the garage but its been pretty cold here recently and its very tempting to sit in front of the fire in the evenings rather than lie on a cold concrete floor in the garage!

Still should be able to make some progress this weekend.

cheers
Alastair

_________________
Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:32 am 
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Do both overdrive gearboxes (1 rail and 3 rail) use that same dolomite overdrive gearbox mounting?
cheers
Alastair

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Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:25 am 
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TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4709
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Do both overdrive gearboxes (1 rail and 3 rail) use that same dolomite overdrive gearbox mounting?
cheers
Alastair
I believe so, the mount fits to the rear case of the overdrive unit which i'm pretty sure is the same whether the overdrive is the D type (3 rail) or J type (single rail) The mount and bracket is, of course, Dolomite specific and different to the non O/D fitting which bolts the gearbox to the tail end of the front subframe rather than the discrete crossmember of the overdrive fitment. The good news though, is that the holes to mount the O/D crossmember will already be in your bodyshell, even though the Toledo was never factory fitted with overdrive, in much the same way that the holes are present in the suspension and front subframe to mount the anti-roll bar, even though the Toledo never got an ARB from the factory! As the voice of experience, I can tell you that the ARB makes a HUGE difference to the Toledo's handling!

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
Posts: 48
Location: Wellington NZ
Thanks Steve
Sounds like putting an overdrive in going to be a bit of a journey! HOpefully I should be able to find the bits in NZ. Like the sound of the ARB though. Are they an off the shelf item? do rimmers have them ? Cheers
ALastair

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Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:45 pm 
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TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4709
Location: Highley, Shropshire
The antiroll bar is standard equipment on every other Dolomite shaped car EXCEPT the Toledo so it shouldn't be TOO hard to find a pre owned one in NZ. All are the same diameter except there WAS a thicker one fitted to very early Sprints but it was quickly dropped in favour of the stock size as it was found to be not as good! Whilst they ARE in slight demand by track racers, they're not much good on a road car and rare as hens teeth besides, I doubt if you'd find one! If you are salvaging a used one, be careful to save the 2 tube spacers that hide in the front tie bars where the droplink pins pass through! If you CAN't find one there, i'm sure someone here will be able to help you out, sadly it won't be me as I don't have a spare ATM, having sold both of my spare ones to Toledo owners!

The bar also has 2 drop links at the ends and 2 brackets with bushes to secure it to the subframe. all are subject to wear/degradation but are available. Chris Witor supplies a natty polybushed version of the drop link (which snaps it's shaft) and Fitchetts do a nice Zintec version of the 2 piece mount bracket (which rots and cracks) bushes for the mount are readily available in Poly from CW or stock rubber from Fitchetts.

HTH Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Quote:

I believe so, the mount fits to the rear case of the overdrive unit which i'm pretty sure is the same whether the overdrive is the D type (3 rail) or J type (single rail) ....
Steve
D type was never fitted to Dolomites, not even the early ones, but yes, the rear mounts are the same. Look at Galileo's thread for a cheaper, better rear mount, though you'll still need to source the x-member which is the same as Sprint/1850 o/d x-member.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:

I believe so, the mount fits to the rear case of the overdrive unit which i'm pretty sure is the same whether the overdrive is the D type (3 rail) or J type (single rail) ....
Steve
D type was never fitted to Dolomites, not even the early ones, but yes, the rear mounts are the same. Look at Galileo's thread for a cheaper, better rear mount, though you'll still need to source the x-member which is the same as Sprint/1850 o/d x-member.
I know no Dolomite type has the D type, but the 3 rail MkIII Spitfire, which is a possible gearbox donor, did! And it would better match the Toledo's coarse splined clutch.

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
Posts: 48
Location: Wellington NZ
HI All

sorry to be banging on about this overdrive issue......

I'm assuming I cant use the gearbox in the standard spec Toledo cant be used as the basis for building up an overdrive gearbox?
I've found a triumph spitfire gearbox (its from a midget 1500 - not much more detail available about it) single rail gearbox on trademe. Would that be a suitable basis for an overdrive conversion ?

I understand I need a spitfire clutch, flywheel an an overdrive gearbox mount. I guess ill also need a gearlever and overdrive switch etc?

Ive managed to disconnect everything form the engine and gearbox and will now get my mechanic or his crew to lift the both out. Im on the downward side now as far as the strip down is concerned. nearly finished. Will have to work out what I do with the shell.

cheers
Alastair

_________________
Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 am
Posts: 48
Location: Wellington NZ
Hi All
Engine and g/box ready to come out, back mounting in bad shape looks like its made of jelly! If Im going to do the overdrive thing ill have to do a ring around and see if I can find parts other wise I may just use the standard 4 spd box in the mean time. Windscreen, dash and back window to come out and it should be all done hopefully.


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Alastair Cox
1971 Triumph Toledo
1975 Triumph Stag
2001 BMW 530i
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