The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

The Number One Club for owners of Triumph's range of small saloons from the 1960s and 1970s.
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:55 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:35 pm 
No, unfortunately not a video of a track battle, more of a ponder.
I visit other Forums where there is talk of all sorts of cars made in a similar mode to the Sprint, i.e. 4 seater saloons, RWD, early 70's era etc.
There is always talk of how great the chassis on the Mk1/Mk2 Escort is, and the Avenger, Talbot Sunbeam, Chevette etc. The Sprint doesn't seem to be held in such general high regard (except on here of course).
What I am wondering is, how does a well sorted Sprint fare against these cars on track these days?
Does the supposedly superior chassis of an Escort still put it in front of a well sorted Sprint? What are the experiences on Track. What happens on track around the twisty bits between a polybushed and stiffened Sprint and a good RS1600?
I know this is academic on todays roads, I was just wondering in a pub chat kind of way......


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:35 pm 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:40 pm
Posts: 436
Location: rotherham south yorkshire
There is a race series, post historic touring cars, for 1970s and 1980s cars with a few sprints in amoungst the escorts,avengers,bmws and various others
and quite often do the triumph name proud partically a lime green one driven by nigel garrett :D

steve

_________________
1973 yellow Sprint L reg
1979 1500 SE T reg
1979 1500 SE V reg
1980 vermillion 1500hl W reg
1975 green 1500tc auto P reg
1971 wedgewood blue 2000 auto mk2 J reg
1979 Sandglow 1500HL auto V reg
1972 valencia blue Toledo 2 dr K reg
1973 Brown Toledo 2 dr L reg
1973 Green Toledo 2 dr L reg
1977 white Datsun 100a f2 S reg
1983 White Toyota Tercel 4x4
1987 Brown Toyota Tercel 4x4
1988 Blue Toyota Tercel 4x4
1999 Toyota Corolla vvti est
2005 Ford ranger thunder XLT
because one triumph just isnt enough


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:47 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:19 am
Posts: 3210
Location: Old Basing, Hants.
Most people don't remember that the Sprint won the BTCC title in 1975 with Andy Rouse behind the wheel, virtually started his career iirc.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:28 am 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:57 pm
Posts: 5154
Location: South Coast
Ask Trackerjack about his escort killers magazine shoot... ;)

_________________
Previous owner of 42 Dolomite shaped vehicles, 14 Sprints, 12 1850s, 8 1500s, 3 V8s, 3 Toledos and 2 SEs


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:38 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:29 pm
Posts: 2403
Location: Bromley, Kent
The Sprint could not hold a candle to an Escort as a rally car full stop. The Escort dominated world rallying from the Daily Mirror London to Mexico World Cup Rally in 1970 until basically the Quattro arrived on the scene in 1980. No other rally car has enjoyed such a sustained period of success before or since.

As a track car, it was a bit different hence Mr Rouse's success.

The Avenger had a really nice chassis, and a well set up one drives absolutely beautifully; but by the early 70's Rootes were skint so it was woefully under invested in. Remember the Lotus Sunbeam is an Avenger underneath.

The 2002 was a strong car, and capable of much higher power outputs than the Dolomite, but it was heavy. BMW concentrated on track support and had notable successes with the 2002 Turbo.

The Chevette possesses one of the best naturally handling RWD set ups I have ever driven, but again was conceived as a stop-gap, a sort of Viva with a hatchback, and its foray into rallying was almost accidental. A 2300HS is still a fantastic car.

In my humble opinion, the Dolomite chassis as a track weapon is not as good as any of those listed above, as it tends naturally towards understeer followed by snap oversteer. But it does have a decent turn of speed between corners, its ride/handling balance is better, and as a road car it works better accordingly.

_________________
Martin.

2021 Land Rover Discovery Sport HSE PHEV
2021 Dacia Duster 1.3 TCe
1963 Austin A40 Rally Car
2021 Honda Cross Tourer Highlander


Top
   
 Post subject: If I may.............
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:48 pm 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:22 pm
Posts: 6475
Location: Caithness, Scotland
To pick up on Martin's observations,
in 1970 it was 2.5PIs, 1800s and Maxis that Leyland were rallying.
Their competitions' department was always stretched for cash.
They did experiment a bit with Dolomites for rallying but didn't develop this model. A few years later a more serious
attempt was made using TR7 V8s.

It is possible that the Lancia Delta would have repeated Ford's domination of world rallying if they had been allowed
to continue competing?

By contrast to Leyland or Rootes, Ford not only invested heavily in their competitions' department but
also marketed their success extremely well resulting in very healthy sales.


Meandering a bit off topic, I have some observations about running the different contenders mentioned...
Escorts are extremely basic featuring things like rubber mats for the floors. The gear change is very precise.
They feature elliptical leaf springs at the back which is not the best idea. The sportier versions featured
tiebars from axle to floor to improve axle location.
All models are hard on petrol.
The pinto engines feature a spraybar to get oil to the camshaft. These clog resulting in the associated wear
making the engine clatter. The cylinder head bolts have a splined head requiring a special key.


Avengers, especially the smaller engined versions, are worthy of consideration. These are easy to live with as they are
nice predictable cars to drive. Fuel economy is better than the equivalent Escort. The back suspension lower arms corrode badly
and break (the later arms were improved). I would choose an Avenger over an Escort.


BMW 2002s take a bit of getting used to with their independent back suspension and general tail happy tendencies.
Despite having twin servos they had dreadful brakes. The gearchange in particular, takes some getting used to because
first and second are way over to the left.
Their (old fashioned) chain driven camshaft engines are durable.
The seats are comfortable but the material wears badly.
Being a two door only, getting in and out of the back is a little awkward.


Oddly(?), all the mentioned cars have been through a "banger" phase with the exception of the sportier Fords.
(When I bought a Sprint in 1989 the cheapest RS2000 in need of repair was over £1000 whereas I paid £140.
Insurance is much cheaper and fuel economy better too for a Sprint.)
All the makes mentioned are (very) prone to corrosion including the sporty models.
As cars to drive today all can be improved over standard and are capable performers.
All are straightforward to work on.

Dolomites have always been overlooked or looked down upon. The old fashioned appearance doesn't help.
Being different appeals to me.

_________________
TDC Forum moderator
PLEASE help us to maintain a friendly forum,
either PM or use Report Post if you see anything you are unhappy with. Thanks.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:25 pm 
As for the escort having a good chassis, I don't know how anything that uses McPherson struts and leaf springs good be described as good lol. Not that the dolly is exactly great but its better than that.
Quote:
The Sprint could not hold a candle to an Escort as a rally car full stop.
I don't believe you are right there.
The sprint did quite well at rallying in the class it was entered in once the teething troubles were sorted. It's just they ran in group 1 whilst ford took all the limelight in group 4.
The cars ford ran were so heavily modified you could make any s##t box good and if that car was light and reliable then you were onto a winner.
I'm sure if Triumph had had thrown the same effort behind a group 4 dolly it could have been just as successful and as equally unrelated to the road car.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:03 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:19 am
Posts: 3210
Location: Old Basing, Hants.
From my research, the Escort only won the WRC drivers title twice and the constructors only once...
The Lancia Delta winning it 6 times. On the trot.

I think the fact that our cars seem to get looked down upon by other Triumph drivers as well as everyone else doesn't help.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:28 am 
Dolomites and Escort RS2000s met in group 1 form in three consecutive Tour of Britain events in '74, '75 and '76. The Escort won all three events
Despite it's suposedly inferior Strut and leaf spring set up the Escort has a chassis that inspires confidence and invites enthusiastic driving. You can do almost anything you like with it knowing it wont bite you. Sure the RS has less power than the Sprint but it's lighter so it needs less.
My friends Avenger with a 1500 auto and lower stiffer suspension is a s fast through the bends as my Sprint, The two Sunbeams I used to have were a little twitchy because of the shorter wheelbase but handled no worse that the Sprint. It was a Sunbeam that broke the Escorts 9 year stranglehold on the RAC rally.
I've not had the pleasure of driving a fast Chevette but as a rally car it took over from the Escort and Sunbeam as the 2wd rally car of choice till the Manta 400 came along.
As a fast criuser the Sprint has much to recommend it, extra doors, a better interior and an overdrive but as a pure performance saloon the Escort has the edge


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:44 pm 
Im going to be careful because i don't have too much Dolomite experience and we all have different opinions.

This is all mostly down to developement.

I did, with no previous experience, a trackday in my Dolomite at Silverstone back in march of this year and the Dolly ran very well indeed. Yes it all started off slow but this was because or all the negative stuff i had read or had been told over a period of time.
I very nearly didn't bother.
The car was pushed harder and harder as the day went on until my smile could get no bigger. :D

Yesterday at Lydden in the Post Historics there were 3 Sprints, running second third and fourth behind a V12 Jag but infront of Chevolet Camaros an Avenger GT, Ford Escorts, Cortinas, Capris etc.
Lets not forget it was a Sprint that qualified on pole ahead of the Jag.

I have followed this type of racing for many years and the Dolomite is still considered a serious contender, it has for many years held its own against most machinery of this era.

Don't listen too much to what you hear or read, go by your own experiences.

Get out there and support our racing Dolomites and see for yourself just how good they can be. They are a very capable machine indeed.

Des.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:02 am 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:33 pm
Posts: 4727
Location: hampshire
An escort is better in two vital areas, steering and weight. (as do the other examples given)
If a 2 door Toledo sprint were produced at the time it would have wiped the floor with the cars mentioned.
The Dolomites have outlived these paper thin creations by being a more solid design.
Just think of the millions of escorts made and how few survive.
Apparently there are only 345 MK1 Cavaliers left :shock: compare that with the Dolomite.

I saw the touring car Dolomites race in their day and they were so fast they went for outright wins instead of class wins.
Fords win because they sink so much money in.
Most fast track Escorts have long changed their boat anchor gas guzzling Pinto's for modern twincams.

_________________
track action maniac.

The lunatic is out................heres Jonny!


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:28 am 
In Australia, the Bathurst race each October is a (? the) premium event. In 1977, the Triumph Dolomite Sprin'ts race motors were banned the evening before the race. Quite simply put, there was no way a pommy 4 cylinder would be allowed to beat Australian 6's and V8s. Pity, this was ground breaking technology Australia chose to ignore much to the later detriment of the local car industry. Have a look at the race stat placings and engine sizes from the 1975 BTCC which Andy Rouse won - the dollie is mythical stuff!


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:09 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:57 am
Posts: 669
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
A lot of the performance and results that were seen from these cars in the 70s depended very much of the rules of the series / formulas they ran in, how much the manufacturers were able to influence those rules and what they managed to get homologated.

Going back to the original question
Quote:
how does a well sorted Sprint fare against these cars on track these days?
.

Probably little has changed in respect that it depends on the rules. The potential of the Escort and 2002 motors has certainly been exploited far more that the Sprint and modern materials and technology has crept in, along with decades of development. A BDA powered Escort makes my Sprint look as though it is standing still on the straight! Many Escorts now have rear suspension conversions with not a leaf spring in sight.

However, modern tyres coupled with modern shocks can transform the handling of the Sprint and all understeer and snap oversteer can be dialled out with appropriate steering geometry set up. I can regularly gain on Escorts and 2002s through the twisty bits but rarely overtake because of the power to weight ratio. That is where handicap races for classics really come into their own for excitement. They also encourage a variety of cars onto the track - otherwise we'd all be racing Escorts and wouldn't that be boring!

Geoff


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:19 am 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:33 pm
Posts: 4727
Location: hampshire
Oh well going on the original question I and others on here have blasted past everything on track days including Ferrari's and Aston Martins.....................but your going past the driver not the car.

_________________
track action maniac.

The lunatic is out................heres Jonny!


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:08 am 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:19 am
Posts: 3210
Location: Old Basing, Hants.
Looking at the standings for the Post Historic Touring cars points table.
In class C, 1st (by a mile, very nearly double the 2nd placed cars points) is a Dolly.
Then an Escort followed by two more Dollys... Another Scrote and then two more Dollys...

In fact that Sprint is in the lead overall...


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited