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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Location: Harrow Middlesex
Tony

Thanks for the picture,ive ordered a trigger wheel today,can i remove my crankshaft pulley with out upsetting the timing ? (Sprint )

Thanks Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:56 am 
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Location: Nr Kenilworth
Yes pulley is separate from crank sprocket and chain. Just the bolt to undo and its on a keyway.

Tony

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 Post subject: Yes.......
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:07 am 
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yes, the elbow will be T'd to heater inlet too then down to the bottom hose (pre pump)Heater return will pipe into water pump cover. Its a bit trial and error but I need to see how it goes before I commit to the efi manifold and ecu. At worst it'll mean a head gasket swap for a non modified one :bash:

Tony
Sorry Tony, to keep harping on about this, but I am unconvinced by this set up....
you are going to have hot coolant going back to the water pump all the time.

Yes, this is how the heater works, but it has a small capacity, a lot smaller than what you are intending.
Another small point, you would be better plumbing the bypass straight to the heater and having a Tee off to take the coolant
when the heater is closed.


A remote thermostat would alleviate my concerns but obviously that would mean making a new transfer plate.
If I went this way, I would have a separate hose tail for the heater input.
For your configuration, Car builder solutions do a suitable remote thermostat with 32mm spouts, part no. BYST87?
https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/ ... -87-degree



Having said all of this, I still remain unconvinced that it is a good idea to alter the path of the coolant within the engine.



Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Yes.......
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
yes, the elbow will be T'd to heater inlet too then down to the bottom hose (pre pump)Heater return will pipe into water pump cover. Its a bit trial and error but I need to see how it goes before I commit to the efi manifold and ecu. At worst it'll mean a head gasket swap for a non modified one :bash:

Tony
Sorry Tony, to keep harping on about this, but I am unconvinced by this set up....
you are going to have hot coolant going back to the water pump all the time.

Yes Ian, I can maybe use the T to send it down the new pipe to the top hose as an alternative.

Yes, this is how the heater works, but it has a small capacity, a lot smaller than what you are intending.
Another small point, you would be better plumbing the bypass straight to the heater and having a Tee off to take the coolant
when the heater is closed.

This is what I meant when saying about the T piece. The smaller bore(s) of the heater pipe will have more restriction so flow through the main hoses should dominate


A remote thermostat would alleviate my concerns but obviously that would mean making a new transfer plate.
If I went this way, I would have a separate hose tail for the heater input.
For your configuration, Car builder solutions do a suitable remote thermostat with 32mm spouts, part no. BYST87?
https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/ ... -87-degree



Having said all of this, I still remain unconvinced that it is a good idea to alter the path of the coolant within the engine.

I'm open to opinions and appreciate inputs whether good or bad. Im so far down the road with it now I'll try it out and measure block temps with K type thermocouples stuck to the block under the inlet manifold, and ex side if I can.
I did think about the external stat arrangement, but having less pipes is appealing to me but i wont rule it out :)

Cheers

Tony




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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:49 pm 
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BTW only a few pipe runs to make up now and fit std inlet manifold set up (with top hose connection blanked) and its ready to run. Head is on with modified gasket. Time is limited this weekend but if I get chance I'll be cooking (the irony :))

Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:54 am 
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How exactly is your waterpath running? Normally it runs from the pump at the front through the engine block and at the rear it travels upwards through the head gasket and goes back through the head and leaves by the inletmanifold outlet. Your entrance is still the original waterpump side and the outlet is at the rear of the head. When it travels directly form the pumpside to the head there's less flow in the engineblock. When it does flow inside the engineblock it doesn't travel through the head. Opposite inlet and outlet will give a travel that is not that ideal. Your elbow at the rear needs a very good restrictor. The thermostat and the outlet hoses look big but the actual stat hole when open isn't that big. The travel through the elbow will be even as the travel through an open stat so the flow through the radiator is way less than the original setup with one way to go with the recirculation valve closed.

Jeroen

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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Head gasket at No1 inlet side, which is normally a single tiny hole (to stop water going straight up to the stat). I have punched holes in the gasket to promote flow up into the head at the front and travel rearwards to the new stat housing (Mx5). The brass elbow 1/2" bsp takes a hose to a T piece one side of T goes to heater valve, and other side of T goes to water pump cover at the side like original. As I write all hoses are now attached but I need to make an adaptor for the std coolant temp sender then I'll be ready to fill with water and see if it works. If it doesnt its just my time and a new head gasket to revert back. If all is good I can fit my EFI manifold and ECU.

Cheers

Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Yeah.......
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Location: Harrow Middlesex
Quote:
Fuel tanks today are made from plastic. It doesn't rust.
This is a major consideration for me, plus Fiesta tanks are readily available and cheap.


Making an inlet manifold in conjunction with a single throttle body is something I have considered.
The principle is quite simple..... have equal runners, made as long as possible (for torque).
However you can encounter all sorts of difficulties with the air box design.
There are loads of threads on the internet detailing different folk's difficulties.....




Ian.
Ian

You said have equal runners made, as long as possible for torque,what is the best size tube to use diam wise ?

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Cant answer the question about correct diameter and length etc but a nice manifold to view is the Toyota 2zz manifold (190 celica etc) Lots of runner length in a compact shape. Search for Lieman manifold for some theory. Group B Audi used them and also Audi Le Mans. :). Too long an inlet can make power shift up the rev range so high rpm needed, which we dont want to much on sprint engines.



Tony

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 Post subject: Aye....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Quote:

Ian

You said have equal runners made, as long as possible for torque,what is the best size tube to use diam wise ?

Dave
That is a good question Dave, one sure to start an argument?
Sorry, I don't have a definitive answer.

If it was me, I would measure the area of the inlet port and work from there?
Tapered inlets are desirable to encourage flow, so trumpets are usually employed (fitted within the plenum).

What throttle body size are you using?
60mm is as big as you can sensibly go on Sprint?
Getting the shape and volume right for the plenum is very important.


Have a look on the Sideways Technologies forum, ....
http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/foru ... injection/



Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Re Throttle body size.Surely the safest way to get it correct would be to use the same as from a OEM car with a similar power output as you have planned?
As a guide, I think the ST170 uses a 60mm throttle body. Probably good for 200bhp or more....
Going too small will be a mistake, but likewise too large. You need a Goldilocks one!

For a more or less std Sprint a throttle body off a 2 litre mondeo would be a good size I reckon.

For info on inlet length there is a great bit of research done here
http://www.emeraldm3d.com/articles/emr- ... th-intake/
and all Dave Walkers stuff is worth a browse....

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Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Aye....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Posts: 545
Location: Harrow Middlesex
Quote:
Quote:

Ian

You said have equal runners made, as long as possible for torque,what is the best size tube to use diam wise ?

Dave
That is a good question Dave, one sure to start an argument?
Sorry, I don't have a definitive answer.

If it was me, I would measure the area of the inlet port and work from there?
Tapered inlets are desirable to encourage flow, so trumpets are usually employed (fitted within the plenum).

What throttle body size are you using?
60mm is as big as you can sensibly go on Sprint?
Getting the shape and volume right for the plenum is very important.


Have a look on the Sideways Technologies forum, ....
http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/foru ... injection/



Ian.
Ian

Had a look at that link,the guy on there who built his EFI for a stag,ive been in that car and it goes like the clappers :D

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:53 pm
Posts: 545
Location: Harrow Middlesex
Quote:
Re Throttle body size.Surely the safest way to get it correct would be to use the same as from a OEM car with a similar power output as you have planned?
As a guide, I think the ST170 uses a 60mm throttle body. Probably good for 200bhp or more....
Going too small will be a mistake, but likewise too large. You need a Goldilocks one!

For a more or less std Sprint a throttle body off a 2 litre mondeo would be a good size I reckon.

For info on inlet length there is a great bit of research done here
http://www.emeraldm3d.com/articles/emr- ... th-intake/
and all Dave Walkers stuff is worth a browse....
Clive

Thats a good idea,ive got a rover 45 manifold and may look at a Astra manifold as well to get idea's

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:00 pm 
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My inlet is from a 2.0l Primera gt so should be ok for 150hp as is (discounting mechanical losses)

Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Inlet manifold
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Location: Harrow Middlesex
Quote:
My inlet is from a 2.0l Primera gt so should be ok for 150hp as is (discounting mechanical losses)

Tony
Tony

When you run your fuel lines,did you run the same size/diam pipe for both.?

Dave


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