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 Post subject: SU Needles
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:29 am 
As discussed in a previous topic I am about to fit a Spitfire head together with a Newman road cam to my 1300 Dolly. At this stage (expense) I shall leave the exhaust and single SU as it is. I am sure others have taken this route. My question which SU needle?
Graham Martin

1936 Riley Merlin
1966 Riley Kestrel
1978 1300 Dolomite


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:54 am 
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not sure if this may help,but you never know


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Dolomite 1300,1980`V`reg in british racing brown(russet),3.63 diff with 21t speedo pinion,95%poly`d,HL clocks,standard wheels with SE covers wrapt in 175 70 13,mot`d 19-09-2014,been off the since 1990,(july2017) stainless steel exhaust 3-piece,(xmas2018) wooden mountney steering wheel,(june2020) new monroe shock(radial front,gas-matic rears) with -1" lower`d springs all round.
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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:13 am 
I would be interested to hear the result. I'm not that you will get the improvement that you want without changing the exhaust.


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:48 pm 
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save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.

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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:02 pm 
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Quote:
save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.
Wasn't there a test years ago on modified TR6's that found most were producing less than a stock factory engine? Without putting a modified car on a rolling road before and after mods, how would you know they made any difference?


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:38 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2473
Quote:
save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.
Not true. My 1500 had a head skim/little bit of porting, fast road cam but std dizzy/carbs/exhaust and made 91BHP which I reckon is MUCH better than the std engines which "may" have been 75bhp on a really good day, more likely 70 if lucky (from previous experiences of testing engines on rolling roads std engines never make the power claimed by manufacturers). That is a minimum of 20% increase, but in all likelyhood nearer 30%. Pretty noticeable I would say.

The operator reprofiled the needles, something he had been doing for over 40 years for all sorts of cars, but mainly racing Minis (but a few E types and other such cars, some used at FoS and similar european race events). Sadly I think he may have retired now.

Anyway, the best solution is to find a rolling road operator who knows SU's (so mini/mg/triumphs etc)
Std needle for an early 1300 is ADM. This may help? Or give somebody like canley classics or Burlen
http://www.teglerizer.com/cgi-bin/needle090db.cgi
http://www.teglerizer.com/suneedledb/09 ... tjava2.htm

so a similar needle but more profile/richer at the top end could be ADL (but that is just by looking at a needle that is richer , so doubtful it would be correct!) OR you could just take the dashpot/piston assembly out, take a fine file and take a flat off the needle from about 1/2 way down. And then drive it, see if better, try again etc. Would be much easier with a wideband AFR gauge!

A shame the old minty lamb needle comparison site is still not working.....

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Clive Senior
Brighton


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1549
Quote:
Quote:
save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.
Not true. My 1500 had a head skim/little bit of porting, fast road cam but std dizzy/carbs/exhaust and made 91BHP which I reckon is MUCH better than the std engines which "may" have been 75bhp on a really good day, more likely 70 if lucky (from previous experiences of testing engines on rolling roads std engines never make the power claimed by manufacturers). That is a minimum of 20% increase, but in all likelyhood nearer 30%. Pretty noticeable I would say.

The operator reprofiled the needles, something he had been doing for over 40 years for all sorts of cars, but mainly racing Minis (but a few E types and other such cars, some used at FoS and similar european race events). Sadly I think he may have retired now.

Anyway, the best solution is to find a rolling road operator who knows SU's (so mini/mg/triumphs etc)
Std needle for an early 1300 is ADM. This may help? Or give somebody like canley classics or Burlen
http://www.teglerizer.com/cgi-bin/needle090db.cgi
http://www.teglerizer.com/suneedledb/09 ... tjava2.htm

so a similar needle but more profile/richer at the top end could be ADL (but that is just by looking at a needle that is richer , so doubtful it would be correct!) OR you could just take the dashpot/piston assembly out, take a fine file and take a flat off the needle from about 1/2 way down. And then drive it, see if better, try again etc. Would be much easier with a wideband AFR gauge!

A shame the old minty lamb needle comparison site is still not working.....
To be fair the OP has a 1300, not a 1500. Doesn't the 1500 have a better flowing stock exhaust manifold than the 1300?

I am also interested where in the rev range that extra power came in? Not much use if it is at higher revs with a 1500, unless the engine is modified so the bottom end can survive.


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:37 am 
Quote:
A shame the old minty lamb needle comparison site is still not working.....
Very true.


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2473
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.
Not true. My 1500 had a head skim/little bit of porting, fast road cam but std dizzy/carbs/exhaust and made 91BHP which I reckon is MUCH better than the std engines which "may" have been 75bhp on a really good day, more likely 70 if lucky (from previous experiences of testing engines on rolling roads std engines never make the power claimed by manufacturers). That is a minimum of 20% increase, but in all likelyhood nearer 30%. Pretty noticeable I would say.

The operator reprofiled the needles, something he had been doing for over 40 years for all sorts of cars, but mainly racing Minis (but a few E types and other such cars, some used at FoS and similar european race events). Sadly I think he may have retired now.

Anyway, the best solution is to find a rolling road operator who knows SU's (so mini/mg/triumphs etc)
Std needle for an early 1300 is ADM. This may help? Or give somebody like canley classics or Burlen
http://www.teglerizer.com/cgi-bin/needle090db.cgi
http://www.teglerizer.com/suneedledb/09 ... tjava2.htm

so a similar needle but more profile/richer at the top end could be ADL (but that is just by looking at a needle that is richer , so doubtful it would be correct!) OR you could just take the dashpot/piston assembly out, take a fine file and take a flat off the needle from about 1/2 way down. And then drive it, see if better, try again etc. Would be much easier with a wideband AFR gauge!

A shame the old minty lamb needle comparison site is still not working.....
To be fair the OP has a 1300, not a 1500. Doesn't the 1500 have a better flowing stock exhaust manifold than the 1300?

I am also interested where in the rev range that extra power came in? Not much use if it is at higher revs with a 1500, unless the engine is modified so the bottom end can survive.
my point is that the engine had the std carbs, manifolds and exhaust. The only changes (apart from a bit of balancing) was the head and cam. And 20-30% increase in power.

The power range was mid to top, I tried 9honest!) to keep it to sub 5500rpm, and the car was being used for PCT's, autotests, autosolos, 12 car rallies, targa rallies and trackdays. I remember one day being late for an autosolo, we were 4 up, and cruising at 100mph (satnav) on teh motorway. It was a 4.11 diff, with OD box.
It was a trackday at goodwood that did the crank eventually, 100+mph along the pit straight and a big end had enough. That was probably 5k of a very hard time. A couple of cranks later (one caused by a oil filter blowing off, crap repro stuff) the Kent cam was largely missing a lobe, and a couple of others were leaving. That is when I gave up on the OHV engines.
To be fair, there are very few people who give their cars such a hard time. If I were to do a 1500 again, I would use a TR5 profile cam, meant for more moderate RPM. But for similar money I have double the power and bombproof in my spitfire thesedays. And the TR7 lump now in the toledo is pretty resilient, but doesn't see the competitive stuff. Still has a hard life though, just not as many miles.

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Clive Senior
Brighton


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1549
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


Not true. My 1500 had a head skim/little bit of porting, fast road cam but std dizzy/carbs/exhaust and made 91BHP which I reckon is MUCH better than the std engines which "may" have been 75bhp on a really good day, more likely 70 if lucky (from previous experiences of testing engines on rolling roads std engines never make the power claimed by manufacturers). That is a minimum of 20% increase, but in all likelyhood nearer 30%. Pretty noticeable I would say.

The operator reprofiled the needles, something he had been doing for over 40 years for all sorts of cars, but mainly racing Minis (but a few E types and other such cars, some used at FoS and similar european race events). Sadly I think he may have retired now.

Anyway, the best solution is to find a rolling road operator who knows SU's (so mini/mg/triumphs etc)
Std needle for an early 1300 is ADM. This may help? Or give somebody like canley classics or Burlen
http://www.teglerizer.com/cgi-bin/needle090db.cgi
http://www.teglerizer.com/suneedledb/09 ... tjava2.htm

so a similar needle but more profile/richer at the top end could be ADL (but that is just by looking at a needle that is richer , so doubtful it would be correct!) OR you could just take the dashpot/piston assembly out, take a fine file and take a flat off the needle from about 1/2 way down. And then drive it, see if better, try again etc. Would be much easier with a wideband AFR gauge!

A shame the old minty lamb needle comparison site is still not working.....
To be fair the OP has a 1300, not a 1500. Doesn't the 1500 have a better flowing stock exhaust manifold than the 1300?

I am also interested where in the rev range that extra power came in? Not much use if it is at higher revs with a 1500, unless the engine is modified so the bottom end can survive.
my point is that the engine had the std carbs, manifolds and exhaust. The only changes (apart from a bit of balancing) was the head and cam. And 20-30% increase in power.

The power range was mid to top, I tried 9honest!) to keep it to sub 5500rpm, and the car was being used for PCT's, autotests, autosolos, 12 car rallies, targa rallies and trackdays. I remember one day being late for an autosolo, we were 4 up, and cruising at 100mph (satnav) on teh motorway. It was a 4.11 diff, with OD box.
It was a trackday at goodwood that did the crank eventually, 100+mph along the pit straight and a big end had enough. That was probably 5k of a very hard time. A couple of cranks later (one caused by a oil filter blowing off, crap repro stuff) the Kent cam was largely missing a lobe, and a couple of others were leaving. That is when I gave up on the OHV engines.
To be fair, there are very few people who give their cars such a hard time. If I were to do a 1500 again, I would use a TR5 profile cam, meant for more moderate RPM. But for similar money I have double the power and bombproof in my spitfire thesedays. And the TR7 lump now in the toledo is pretty resilient, but doesn't see the competitive stuff. Still has a hard life though, just not as many miles.
Wouldn't you have to enter the TR7 engine in a different classification anyway? As it is 2 litres capacity.

To be fair to your 1500, most engines won't be happy if they are pushed to the limit in race use and would probably require some TLC eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2473
It is odd. But for a lot of stuff being historic is enough :) and as the TR7 engine is a "family" engine it is readily accepted. (bear in mind I have never had pockets deep enough to go circuit racing, all my stuff is grass roots motorsport, or trackdays which are totally non-competitive :wink:
Oddly my ford powered spitfire is automatically in the post 84 class for the CT autosolo we are doing at the end of october. Especially as at a previous one it/I got an award for "quickest Triumph"(but that is quite a way down the pecking order, after class wins/2nds/FTD etc) but a bit of silverware is always welcome!

With the 1500 I think there were a few important things for longevity, or rather to have a half decent life expectancy. 1. Thermostatic oil cooler. 2. Millers CSS20-60 (hold oil pressure better than anything else I have tried, with an assumption it is offering better protection as the oil is not breaking down) 3. Fit a rev limiter, something I ought to have done. Oh, and if you can get them VP2 bearings.

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Clive Senior
Brighton


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:04 pm 
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User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:48 pm
Posts: 1635
Quote:
Quote:
save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.
Wasn't there a test years ago on modified TR6's that found most were producing less than a stock factory engine? Without putting a modified car on a rolling road before and after mods, how would you know they made any difference?

If you could get a 30% gain without carbs, exhaust or ignition set up why do people fit them?

_________________
Some people are like Slinky's, they serve no real purpose in life but bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1549
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
save you money and stick with the standard needle you won't see any noticeable difference without a decent exhaust, carb and ignition set up.
Wasn't there a test years ago on modified TR6's that found most were producing less than a stock factory engine? Without putting a modified car on a rolling road before and after mods, how would you know they made any difference?

If you could get a 30% gain without carbs, exhaust or ignition set up why do people fit them?
People aren't scientific about modifications, they generally assume bigger is better and plus they look nice and make a nice sound.

To do it properly I think you either have to have access to rolling road, to check you are really improving things or follow a recipe of upgrades that has been properly checked by someone else.

Plus you also have to make sure that the engine you are modding is in good nick in the first place. No point upgrading a worn engine.


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:32 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2473
Quote:



If you could get a 30% gain without carbs, exhaust or ignition set up why do people fit them?
Good question.
As above, people make assumptions. Often wrongly.
I know people used to say stick the carbs and manifolds off a 1500 onto a 1300, it goes better. Did anybody at all actually produce any valid data? ie compare times over 1/4 mile, 0-60 or best of all rolling road? If so I have never seen any such data.

So I am just saying what happened with my car. No axe to grind, not selling anything. Just information from the rollers. I have no doubt a decent 4>2>1 manifold and a pair of webers would have seen well over 100bhp. But sadly nobody ever seems to back power increase claims with real data.
Th only bit of work that was done that way was John Thomason when he discovered how little difference a single v twin HS4 on a 1500 made. Many years ago now, but it was the year he won a race series in a std 1500 spitfire, beating alfas and other machinery that really should have beaten him!

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Clive Senior
Brighton


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 Post subject: Re: SU Needles
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:38 pm 
A 90 bhp 1500 with overdrive should be a great car. Quick off the mark, easy to look after and a great cruiser.

Oh dear, I feel a craving coming on. :twisted:


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