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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Going back a bit as Ive missed this post, but your 3 instrument cluster with an oil gauge looks like the one from a Riley Kestrel ADO16 and I believe came with a direct oil pipe and NOT an electrical sender. Well mine did but its a good while ago now....40 years or so.

Rover P6 V8's have an electric oil gauge by Mr Smith so the sender from one of these may do the job.

Jonners

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Quote:
Going back a bit as Ive missed this post, but your 3 instrument cluster with an oil gauge looks like the one from a Riley Kestrel ADO16 and I believe came with a direct oil pipe and NOT an electrical sender. Well mine did but its a good while ago now....40 years or so.

Rover P6 V8's have an electric oil gauge by Mr Smith so the sender from one of these may do the job.

Jonners
An interesting piece of historical information. :D

Here's a potentially suitable item, recently listed on E-bay, which might be most appropriate; having a 0~80 psi range:

Smiths Capillary Oil Pressure Gauge New (Open Face) 0-40-80 lbs -Part PL 6265/06 | £7.50 | Postage: £3.20 Economy Delivery | Item location: Sleaford, United Kingdom

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smiths-Capill ... SwCU1Yx-ai

My plans at the moment are to substitute my original Toledo fuel gauge and coolant-water temperature gauge (partly to ensure compatibility with the existing senders) with white pointers into the triple housing and relocate the temperature gauge with red pointer into the "AMPS" aperture, to use as an engine oil-temperature gauge.

I already have a capillary-type Smith's 0~100 psi oil-pressure gauge, with 270º pointer sweep angle for greatest precision, plus a 0~30 in.Hg inlet-manifold vacuum gauge of the same style.

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Checking on E-bay a few weeks ago, I found the following circular housing with triple-gauge cluster, listed at £14•99 plus £2•50 postage. It includes a fuel gauge (bottom) and temperature gauge (top left) and empty space (top right) with what looks like a cardboard or hardboard blanking cover on the back.

Smiths IP3201/65 vintage combination gauge Rootes Triumph 1960s

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smiths-IP3201 ... 2542128513

After a brief exchange of messages with the vendor over the following days, about the dimensions of the circular housing, the individual gauges and the separation between their pairs of fixing screws, I decided to purchase this item.

The external diameters are the same as my other large gauges (i.e. 100 mm housing & 104 mm bezel) and the two attachment screws for each individual gauge (or more importantly the blanking cover) in the cluster have same spacing as mine (i.e. 61 mm).

I shall substitute the water-temperature gauge (white pointer | labelled 334) and fuel gauge (white pointer | labelled 324) into this “triple-gauge-cluster” from my Toledo’s existing Smith’s circular housing (IP 2207/02, labelled 364) with dual-gauge cluster. I plan to be use newly acquired water-temperature gauge (red pointer | labelled 010) as an oil-temperature gauge, in the previously vacant aperture marked AMPS.

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I was concerned that the engine-coolant (i.e. water & antifreeze) temperature gauge, might not have an appropriate temperature range; recalling that the VDO Cockpit gauges for water-temperature and oil-temperature are 40~120 ºC and 50~150 ºC respectively. However, I also found listed on E-bay for £75•00, a circular housing with triple-gauge cluster (bearing the Land Rover emblem) incorporating both water-temperature and oil-temperature gauges, having the same 30~110 ºC temperature scales, so my concerns are probably groundless.

JAEGER LANDROVER Fuel Water Oil Temp Gauge

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAEGER-LANDRO ... 2542128513

Another similar three-instrument housing with just a temperature gauge and two blanking plates, was listed at £25 plus £3•95 postage.

SMITHS WATER GAUGE CHROME CLASSIC CAR COMBINATION NOS Rat Rod Hot BLANK NEW MG

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMITHS-WATER- ... 2493385024

The price of £14•99 plus £2•50 postage, was certainly a lot better than the £33 plus £5 postage for the rusty looking fuel-level, temperature & oil-pressure gauge, or the £85 including postage for the substantially better looking instrument of the same type.

smith oil,temp,fuel gauge IP 3201/03 - £33.00 + Postage: £5.00 Standard Delivery

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/smith-oil-tem ... 2542128513

SMITHS IP 3201 /03 Fuel Temperature COMBINATION GAUGE​ - FREE Postage [PL1031] – £85.00

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMITHS-IP-320 ... SwKrhVc1Do

Although the temperature scales are not calibrated, I can probably perform some rough & ready calibration tests using a thermometer, to see where the gauge needles point on the Cold-Normal-Hot or Cold-Hot scales, which are said to be notoriously non-linear owing to the temperature-resistance characteristics of thermistor-based temperature senders (exponential decay or growth curve, dependent upon thermistor type).

Before I purchase another temperature sender (cost about £5~£6 each), I shall check the newly acquired temperature gauge with my Toledo’s existing water-temperature sender. Typically, there is little pointer movement over a large temperature range, at the lower end of the scale, but a lot of pointer movement over a small temperature range, at the upper end of the scale.

Ideally, if I could find a way to do it neatly, I would like to incorporate scale markings and numbers on the dial faces, which would make them much easier to interpret.

In principle, it is possible to linearise a temperature scale, by incorporating the temperature sender into a Wheatstone Bridge style circuit and measuring the voltage difference across the bridge, but whether this would be practical with the existing gauge is debatable. It’s been at least 20 years since I designed a circuit of this type and had easy access to the necessary experimental and test facilities.

Hence, if the £15 gauge cluster proves to be suitable, I shall probably arrange my revised RHD Toledo instrument panel (i.e. in the previously transplanted Dolomite 1500 HL dashboard) in the following sequence, from left to right:


· 104 mm circular housing with triple-gauge cluster, incorporating fuel gauge (white pointer | labelled 324 | bottom), water-temperature gauge (white pointer | labelled 334 | top left) and oil-temperature gauge (red pointer | labelled 010 | top right) – in close proximity to the oil-pressure gauge;
· 52 mm oil-pressure gauge (top);
· 52 mm voltmeter (bottom);
· 104 mm Triumph Toledo dual-scale speedometer, with three integral warning lights for generator (65A alternator), oil-pressure & headlamp main beam;
· 52 mm inlet-manifold vacuum gauge (top)
· 52 mm ammeter (bottom)
· 104 mm Triumph Dolomite, Spitfire or GT6 tachometer, possibly with up to two integral warning lights.

Owing to restrictions imposed on the possible routing of the speedometer cable and avoidance of small-radius bends in said cable, it might be necessary to swop the mounting positions of the speedometer and tachometer.

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:10 pm 
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When considering which instrument functions to incorporate within the Smith’s 100 mm triple-gauge housing, I needed to consider the limited clearance there would be, between the back of the gauge housing and the control-lever linkages, for the combined heater, demister & ventilation system, when installed in the far left-hand side of the Dolomite HL style instrument panel, adjacent to the heating & ventilation control levers.

With this clearance in mind, and the associated risk of oil-pipe or un-fused electrical wiring chafing against the moving linkages, I discounted a mechanical-type oil-pressure gauge and an ammeter. The fuel gauge and engine-coolant temperature gauge both require minimal clearance, especially if one reshapes the electrical terminals and substitutes right-angled “flag” connectors. A voltmeter, as used in the triple-gauge housings for the Triumph 1500 & 1500 TC or Triumph 2000 & 2500 would also be an option, but I don’t have one of these. However, I do have a spare temperature gauge.

Owing to the depths of their instrument housings, this location on the far left-hand side of the instrument panel, would be unsuitable for either the 100 mm speedometer or tachometer. The necessary routing of a drive-cable for a speedometer and/or tachometer, would also preclude this location.

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:12 pm 
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There seem to be quite a few of these Smith’s 100 mm triple-gauge housings, currently listed on E-bay, in various styles, incorporating a choice of third instrument (i.e. ammeter, voltmeter or oil-pressure gauge), in addition to a fuel gauge and engine-coolant temperature gauge. All of these have been listed by a vendor in Colne, Lancashire. At least some look as though they are re-listings of previously unsold items; possibly at reduced asking prices.

TRIUMPH SMITHS GAUGE DUAL AMPS OIL WATER TEMP COMBINATION DEEP DISH CHROME BEZEL | £60.00 | Postage: £3.95 Economy Delivery | Item location: Colne, Lancashire

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-SMITH ... 1671284053

SMITHS WATER GAUGE CHROME CLASSIC CAR COMBINATION NOS Rat Rod Hot BLANK NEW MG | £23.00 | Postage: £3.95 Economy Delivery | Item location: Colne, Lancashire

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMITHS-WATER- ... 2708514265

TRIUMPH 1500 SMITHS GAUGE DUAL VOLTS FUEL WATER TEMP COMBINATION VGC CHROME | £40.00 | Postage: £3.95 Economy Delivery | Item location: Colne, Lancashire

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-1500- ... 2708514265

TRIUMPH 2000 2500 SMITHS GAUGE DUAL VOLTS FUEL WATER TEMP COMBINATION VGC CHROME | £40.00 | Postage: £3.95 Economy Delivery | Item location: Colne, Lancashire

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-2000- ... 2708514265

TRIUMPH 2000 Mk2 SMITHS GAUGE DUAL VOLTS FUEL WATER TEMP COMBINATION VGC CHROME | £50.00 | £3.95 Economy Delivery | Item location: Colne, Lancashire

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-2000- ... 2708514265

If one sought to retain or retro-fit late-style Toledo or Dolomite speedometer and/or tachometer, then Smith’s 100 mm triple-gauge housing from a Triumph 2000 Mk.2 might be a reasonable match, but one would need to check the compatibility of temperature and fuel-level senders.

Personally, I find the late-style instruments less attractive and less easy to read at a glance, than the early-style instruments, that were factory-fitted to my 1974 Triumph Toledo and the early Triumph Dolomites, but others might differ in their opinions.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Warning-Light Provision & Cold-Air Vent Relocation

With a total of nine gauges and other instruments in the main instrument panel, there is little if any vacant space for anything else, if I retain the circular, cold-air ventilation vent in its original position. If I do, it’s questionable whether I would be able to fit any warning lights in it, other than those that are incorporated into the original 104 mm Toledo speedometer (three factory-fitted warning lights) and whatever 104 mm tachometer (typically zero, one or two factory-fitted warning lights) I eventually fit.

In the interest of instrumentation ergonomics, it would be better if I were to relocate the circular, cold-air ventilation vent, below the dashboard, just a few inches beneath its original position in the main instrument panel. However, this might compromise its contribution to demisting the driver’s door side window!?! That said, side-window demisting or upper-body cooling, might be better achieved by having an additional rotating, adjustable vent, in the top of the dashboard on the right-hand side, if I can find a way to do this neatly, and similarly on the left-hand side, for the passenger’s door side window.

Flexible-hose connection to cold-air vents located below the left & right hand extremities of the dashboard, is actually easier than the factory-stock installation, because there is little if any need to make any bends in the flexible hoses. It might also be practical to fit some additional cold-air vents below various parts of the dashboard, for improved summer cooling; in the absence of air-conditioning, which was never an option during the 1970s (so far as I am aware!), for the Triumph Toledo & Dolomite.

Using disposable formers made out of cardboard tube, I have in the past, fabricated some quite complex-shaped Y-junctions (50 mm, 55 mm & 60 mm I.D. hose connections), out of fibre-glass reinforced plastic, to incorporate a 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 heater-booster fan (engine-compartment, ceiling mounted) into the 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 heating system.

Forum Index > Bay Window Bus > Adding Blower Motor in Engine Bay (Please expose all flaws)

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... 6&start=60

http://s275.photobucket.com/user/naskee ... n.jpg.html

Image

If I choose to relocate the right-hand cold-air vent to below the dashboard, then I can relocate the 60 mm Lucas 8-segment warning-light cluster (with provision for eight warning lights as one might expect), from the upper centre of the main instrument panel, to the right-hand extremity of the main instrument panel. There might also be enough space for some additional individual warning-light units, or two pull-switches; including that for the factory-fitted heated rear window and the Kenlowe, radiator electric cooling-fan.

Although I don’t presently have warning lights for the hand-brake lever, carburettor choke control and fuel level, I have the associated switch-senders from the Triumph Dolomite 1500HL. If I can make provision for enough warning lights, I might use them.

In the interests of maximising safety, it would also be desirable to substitute hydraulic-brake and/or hydraulic-clutch reservoir screw-caps, with fluid-level float switches, if I can find any of the right size. Although I have always regularly checked vital fluid levels in the engine-compartment, it is always possible that a hydraulic system might develop a significant leak between inspections.

SMITHS WARNALITE (BRAKE OR OTHER) FLUID LEVEL INDICATOR (NEW) PART BFA | £9.99 | £3.20 Economy Delivery | Item location: Sleaford, United Kingdom

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMITHS-WARNAL ... 1298256990

Smith's Warnalite substitute screw-cap with float switch, for brake or clutch hydraulic-fluid reservoir

Image

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Potentially, I might need or desire the following twenty two warning lights, but at the moment I only have provision for twelve:

1) Low oil-pressure warning (integral within speedometer!)
2) Electrical generator warning (integral within speedometer!)
3) Headlamp main beam tell-tale (obligatory | integral within speedometer!)
4) Headlamp dipped beam tell-tale (in 8-segment cluster? – dark green)
5) Daytime running lights tell-tale
6) Front auxiliary driving lights tell-tale (obligatory? | in 8-segment cluster? – blue)
7) Front auxiliary fog lights tell-tale (obligatory? | in 8-segment cluster? – pea green)
8) Rear-guard fog lights tell-tale (obligatory | in 8-segment cluster? – pea green)
9) Rear auxiliary H3 55W reversing lights tell-tale (obligatory | in 8-segment cluster? – yellow)
10) Left-hand direction indicator tell-tale (obligatory | in 8-segment cluster? – orange)
11) Right-hand direction indicator tell-tale (obligatory | in 8-segment cluster? – orange)
12) Trailer direction indicators tell-tale (obligatory | in 8-segment cluster? – orange)
13) Brake-circuit failure warning (obligatory? | dedicated unit | in clock panel?)
14) Brake-light activation tell-tale
15) Low fuel-level warning (incorporate within fuel-level gauge?!?)
16) Radiator electric cooling-fan tell-tale (incorporate within engine-coolant temperature gauge?!?)
17) Heated rear-window tell-tale (integral within tachometer?)
18) Hand-brake-on tell-tale
19) Carburettor choke control tell-tale
20) Low fuel-level warning
21) Low brake-fluid level warning
22) Low clutch-fluid level warning

This poses the question of how best to make provision for up to ten additional warning lights, within one’s field of view. Although I am not sure how, it might be possible to incorporate some additional warning lights into one or more of the instruments or gauges, including two that a standard feature of some Smith’s tachometers whose style match that of the original Toledo speedometer. Whether it would be practical to incorporate additional warning lights into any of the instrument housings and dial faces, remains to be seen!?!

However, a more practical solution for the provision of up to eight additional warning lights, would be to substitute a supplementary, 60 mm Lucas 8-segment warning-light cluster, into the 60 mm Kienzle clock’s aperture, between the central heating & ventilation control-levers and the glove-box flap. Above and below the original clock aperture, I might probably retro-fit the brake-circuit failure warning light and hazard-warning light switch respectively. The Kienzle clock could potentially be incorporated into a small supplementary console, below the central heater vent beneath the dashboard.

Relocating Dashboard Switches & Control Knobs

Prior to the mid-1980s, when the Triumph Toledo still had its original factory-fitted steering column, dashboard, switches and instruments, all of the switches and the carburettor choke-control knob, were either incorporated into the dashboard or fitted beneath it in custom-made brackets; such as the early-type heated rear-window switch with integral warning light in the knob. I had also retro-fitted the Kenlowe radiator cooling-fan, manual-override switch with warning light, in a home-made bracket beneath the dashboard.

During the early-to-mid-1980s, when I substituted the adjustable steering column and dashboard with separate removable instrument panel from a “four-headlamp” Triumph Dolomite, my original dashboard-mounted main light switch and windscreen wiper & washer switch became redundant, because these switch functions were on the substituted steering column.

The early-type heated rear-window switch with integral warning light and the Kenlowe radiator cooling-fan, manual-override switch with warning light, were repositioned beneath the substitute Dolomite dashboard.

However, the carburettor choke-control knob, was relocated to a vacant space on the replacement instrument panel, which was convenient to use, but not an ideal location for other reasons. The instrument panel also incorporated a hazard warning light facility, which the 1974 Triumph Toledo originally lacked, but I think the 1975 & 1976 Toledos had this.

The ex-Dolomite steering-column nacelle, had plenty of unused external surface and spare room inside, so I was able to incorporate additional switches (mainly second-hand paddle switches) for the front & rear fog lamps, auxiliary driving lights and auxiliary reversing lights. There is probably enough space to accommodate one or two more switches; one of which might be needed for daytime running lights that might be preferable to dipped quartz-halogen headlamps for daylight use!

The central, under-dashboard heater-vent unit from the Triumph Dolomite 1500HL, has provision for mounting the carburettor choke knob & cable on one side (I shall probably use this option) and a cigar lighter on the other.

Having NEVER been a smoker, I have NO need of a cigar lighter, so I could potentially use this as an alternative location for the heated rear window switch or other switch. Although a power socket for my map-reading light or hand-held H3 quartz-halogen spot light might be useful, I can probably find another convenient position for that if the need should arise.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Just a couple of quick points, 1) your list of warning lights includes 2 for low fuel at *15 and *20 and 2) you mention an auxiliary reverse light of 55watt, presumably the rally drivers favourite of a rear facing spotlight! This is not road legal in Britain, and any reverse light MUST be 21w or less.
I can see where you are going with this concept and, whilst it is entirely your choice, i'm not sure it's a good idea! There IS such a thing as TOO much information!
I have been having a conversation recently with Ian (uphill racer) on this very topic, brought on by Jeroen posting a pic of his rally Dolomite dash in the competition interiors thread in the motorsport section of this forum. Our conclusion was that though it looks brilliant at first glance with switches and dials EVERYWHERE, it would be a nightmare to actually USE, in the sense that you are driving at night and a warning light comes on, now is that the choke light, or the oil pressure light, or the front foglights? (examples only) with a choice of only 4 or 5 colours and 22 lights, duplication is inevitable! Your brain can only absorb so much input when you are concentrating (as you should be) on actually DRIVING the beast, a distracting warning light and trying to mentally translate what it is for, could, at the wrong moment, have you introduce yourself to the scenery!

Below is what I have used in the Carledo, I know it's not Triumph in origin, but I like it's compact simplicity. All the information I NEED is there, all the switchgear, (save only the brake line lock, which is only used when the car is stationary or nearly so) is on the steering column and there are sufficient warning lights to inform me of legally mandated functions and a few that are merely desirable. All the instruments and warning lights WORK, it's not just for show!

Image

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Quote:
Just a couple of quick points, 1) your list of warning lights includes 2 for low fuel at *15 and *20 and 2) you mention an auxiliary reverse light of 55watt, presumably the rally drivers favourite of a rear facing spotlight! This is not road legal in Britain, and any reverse light MUST be 21w or less.
I can see where you are going with this concept and, whilst it is entirely your choice, i'm not sure it's a good idea! There IS such a thing as TOO much information!
I have been having a conversation recently with Ian (uphill racer) on this very topic, brought on by Jeroen posting a pic of his rally Dolomite dash in the competition interiors thread in the motorsport section of this forum. Our conclusion was that though it looks brilliant at first glance with switches and dials EVERYWHERE, it would be a nightmare to actually USE, in the sense that you are driving at night and a warning light comes on, now is that the choke light, or the oil pressure light, or the front foglights? (examples only) with a choice of only 4 or 5 colours and 22 lights, duplication is inevitable! Your brain can only absorb so much input when you are concentrating (as you should be) on actually DRIVING the beast, a distracting warning light and trying to mentally translate what it is for, could, at the wrong moment, have you introduce yourself to the scenery!

Below is what I have used in the Carledo, I know it's not Triumph in origin, but I like it's compact simplicity. All the information I NEED is there, all the switchgear, (save only the brake line lock, which is only used when the car is stationary or nearly so) is on the steering column and there are sufficient warning lights to inform me of legally mandated functions and a few that are merely desirable. All the instruments and warning lights WORK, it's not just for show!

Image

Steve
Steve

Tiring to remember what that dash came from,would that be Astra GTE :D :D

Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Close Dave, it's a Nova SR, though there is a very similar unit in the MkII Cavalier CD.

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:35 pm 
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I've given it some thought and I have whittled your 22 (21 really) warning lights down to 10!

The lights divide into 3 basic categories, mandatory (man) desirable (des) and Not Really Necessary (NRN)

So first, the "man" lights
1) Main beam warning
2) Driving light warning
3) Front foglight warning
4) rear foglight warning
5) Indicator repeater - but you only need one!
-) Trailer indicator repeater - this does not have to be a light, can be a buzzer (which does not have to be on show)

Now for the "des" lights
6) Heated rear window
7) Choke
8)Ignition light - not really needed if you have a Voltmeter, but probably too much trouble to lose it!
9) Daytime running lights - if these are not switched, but direct off the ignition then this is NRN too!
10) A catch-all for handbrake on, low brake or clutch fluid and brake pressure fault. Since all these work off the same style of switched earth circuit and all are basically related in function, why use 4 separate lights? And the handbrake function will act as a circuit check for all.

And finally to the "NRN" category (and why!)
1) Oil pressure warning - Why? you have a guage!
2) Low fuel warning - As above!
3) Electric fan warning - As above - and you can probably HEAR it running anyway!
4) Brake light activation _ I've driven cars with this and it's annoying and distracting!
5) Extra, hi power reverse light - You shouldn't have this anyway!
6) 2nd indicator repeater - Not legally required, if it's flashing, you don't need to know which one it is, a touch of the switch will stop it!
7) Dip beam on warning - Only French cars have this! If you can see the lights are on and the main beam light is not, they MUST be on dip. If you must have a warning, say to guard against leaving headlights on in the daytime, fit a lights on/ignition off chime!

Now consider the late model Dolomite 8 segment warning light cluster the lights being (clockwise from the top) :-
1) indicator repeater (both sides)(Green) - Keep this unchanged.
2) Oil pressure warning (Green) - Repurpose as driving light warning.
3) Low fuel warning (Yellow) - Repurpose as front fog light warning.
4) Handbrake on warning (Red) - Keep this but add additional circuits for pressure drop and fluid levels.
5) Main beam warning light (Blue) - Keep this unchanged.
6) Choke (Yellow) - Keep this unchanged.
7) Heated rear window (Purple) - Keep this unchanged.
8) Ignition warning light (Red) - Keep this unchanged.

So that is 8 from 10, by using the factory late model rear fog light switch which is internally illuminated, you then only need to find one extra warning light for the DRLs - which is only borderline necessary anyway!

Above all, bear in mind the first law of engineering, Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Steve

Edit! I don't know why the smilies are there! I typed numbers in the text - honest!

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Canvey Island, Essex
Warning-Light Provision & Cold-Air Vent Relocation
Quote:
Edit! I don't know why the smilies are there! I typed numbers in the text - honest!
The smilies are there because the combination of characters you have used together, are the code which invokes the smiley! Try inserting a tick in the tick-box for turning off smilies, at the bottom of the editing page; it works for me whenever I encounter this irritating phenomenon.

Quote:
. . . you mention an auxiliary reverse light of 55watt, presumably the rally drivers favourite of a rear facing spotlight! This is not road legal in Britain, and any reverse light MUST be 21w or less.
When on the public highway, my rearward-facing Lucas Square-8, H3 55W auxiliary reversing lights (the original matched pair of a single fog light and a single spot light, fitted to the front of the car by Mann Egerton, the Triumph & Rover dealership, in Leigh-on-Sea, Essex) have their original opaque black covers in place. The switch-current for the auxiliary reversing lights’ relay, derives its power from the side-light terminal of the main light switch, so they’re unlikely to be left on during the day.

The single up-side-down, customised, late-model Dolomite HL, Lucas 8-segment warning-light cluster, which has been in the unmodified Dolomite dashboard of my Toledo since 1983/84, has an easily-seen yellow-lensed segment as a tell-tale for the auxiliary reversing lights, to remind me to turn them off, when I no longer need them for night-time reversing.

For the purpose of night-time reversing up my long driveway or reverse-parking in an unlit car park, they are essential; conventional 21W reversing lights being wholly inadequate for this purpose. Modern after-market LED reversing lights of less than 21W power consumption, might actually produce greater light intensity than my H3 55W bulbs! My present 240V, 6W LED domestic light bulbs, are said to produce comparable light intensity to that of a 40W incandescent domestic light bulb.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/reverse-lamps/

Rectangle LED Truck and Trailer Back-Up Light - 5" LED Reverse Light with 24 High Flux LEDs - 3-Pin Connector | Part Number: RT-W24 | Price: US$27.95 each

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinf ... 1249/1769/

I originally fitted the redeployed single Square-8 fog lamp beneath the rear bumper during the early-1980s, when I was at university and needed to reverse-park my car at night, in a pitch-black, unlit hall-of-residence car park. I later decided that it would be beneficial to supplement it with a longer-range lamp. For driving in night-time fog, the front-mounted, Lucas 20-20 Homofocal 7 inch rally fog lamps were far superior!

Quote:
Below is what I have used in the Carledo, I know it's not Triumph in origin, but I like it's compact simplicity. All the information I NEED is there, all the switchgear, (save only the brake line lock, which is only used when the car is stationary or nearly so) is on the steering column and there are sufficient warning lights to inform me of legally mandated functions and a few that are merely desirable.

All the instruments and warning lights WORK, it's not just for show!

Image
I presume the brake-line lock is an anti-theft device rather than some system for locking-on the front hydraulic brakes whilst the rear brakes are released, to create bizarre manoeuvring conditions!?!

Your Toledo’s substituted Vauxhall Nova instrumentation might be suitably functional (apart from the 40% inaccuracy of the speedometer!?!), but it would offend my sense of aesthetics to butcher a dashboard in that way. Besides that, I believe I can achieve a layout which is functional, ergonomically efficient and aesthetically pleasing, in a way that at first glance, might be mistaken for a factory-fitted installation.

All of my switches are on the adjustable steering column, apart from the heated rear-window switch and the Kenlowe-fan manual-override switch. There is still some vacant space on the steering column nacelle for some additional switches, which might later include a momentary flasher switch for the brake lights and a changeover switch for town to fanfare horns. Whether I might also fit a substitute switch on the steering column, for the heated rear window, remains to be seen.

Quote:
I can see where you are going with this concept and, whilst it is entirely your choice, i'm not sure it's a good idea! There IS such a thing as TOO much information!

I have been having a conversation recently with Ian (uphill racer) on this very topic, brought on by Jeroen posting a pic of his rally Dolomite dash in the competition interiors thread in the motorsport section of this forum. Our conclusion was that though it looks brilliant at first glance with switches and dials EVERYWHERE, it would be a nightmare to actually USE, in the sense that you are driving at night and a warning light comes on, now is that the choke light, or the oil pressure light, or the front foglights?

(examples only) with a choice of only 4 or 5 colours and 22 lights, duplication is inevitable! Your brain can only absorb so much input when you are concentrating (as you should be) on actually DRIVING the beast, a distracting warning light and trying to mentally translate what it is for, could, at the wrong moment, have you introduce yourself to the scenery!
I will not have a problem of instantly identifying the functions of the various warning lights, because the particular clusters, location within a cluster (as indicated by the orientation of the segment), warning-light colour & emblem, will immediately make this obvious to me! I have a more than adequate supply of spare coloured filter segments, including some of non-factory-standard colours (I used off-cuts of coloured acrylic sheet), so I can create my own standard re allocation of colours to different tell-tale or warning functions.

Appreciating the importance of instrumentation design and general ergonomic considerations, was part of my M.Sc. in Applied Energy Engineering; complementing existing knowledge from my earlier B.Sc. in Applied Physics. The form, position and layout of switchgear are also important, which I previously considered, when I undertook most of my earlier Toledo upgrades during the early-1980s.

If you would oblige me by providing a link to Jeroen’s posted picture of his rally Dolomite dashboard, in the competition interiors thread, in the motorsport section of this forum, I will be better able to visualise the reasons for your concern and possibly even advise Jeroen on a better layout.

I am familiar with the concept and consequences of “information overload”; something I try to impress on my students of mathematics, physics and engineering. The key is to provide the necessary information in an easily interpreted format and be able to quickly discriminate between that which is both important & urgent, important or urgent or neither. This is vital to the design of avionics, particularly for fighter aircraft which fly close to the terrain at extremely high speed.

As I indicated in the introductory section of the following topic thread that I initiated some time ago, gauges do not replace the need for warning lights; they complement one another! Warning lights alert one to changes and gauges give precise information once alerted. It is well recognised in the aviation, chemical process and nuclear power industries, that we humans are poor at constantly monitoring gauges.

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » Customising Lucas 60 mm, 8-Segment, Warning-Light Clusters

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29490

Having appropriate warning lights and/or other warning devices, to alert one to important changes in circumstances, there is less need to constantly monitor gauges, which would otherwise pose a greater distraction from concentrating on driving.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Canvey Island, Essex
Warning-Light Provision & Cold-Air Vent Relocation
Quote:
I've given it some thought and I have whittled your 22 (21 really) warning lights down to 10!

The lights divide into 3 basic categories, mandatory (man) desirable (des) and Not Really Necessary (NRN)

So first, the "man" lights

1) Main beam warning
2) Driving light warning
3) Front foglight warning
4) rear foglight warning
5) Indicator repeater - but you only need one!
-) Trailer indicator repeater - this does not have to be a light, can be a buzzer (which does not have to be on show)
Quote:
6) 2nd indicator repeater - Not legally required, if it's flashing, you don't need to know which one it is, a touch of the switch will stop it!
I’ve never liked the cost-cutting measure of having only a single direction-indicator tell-tale lamp, which only show that the direction indicators are flashing on either the left or right hand sides, but not which. I haven’t knowingly given an incorrect turn signal myself, but I have witnessed too many drivers who have; turning right when signalling left or vice versa.

By having separate direction-indicator tell-tale lamps for each side, the feedback information is unambiguous, as is the norm with the pre-1975 Toledo’s original pair of direction-indicator tell-tale lamps, incorporated into the 100 mm two-gauge, fuel-gauge & temperature-gauge housing as well as the 8-segment warning-light cluster of the early-model Dolomite 1850, which also have two direction-indicator tell-tale lamps.

Buzzers, chimes and other audible warning devices, are useful for drawing one’s attention to things whilst stationary (e g. headlamps left on when door opened and/or ignition switched off | campervan elevating roof still raised when engine started) or as a warning of impending doom whilst driving (e.g. catastrophic leakage of oil, coolant, brake fluid, etc), but I wouldn’t wish to have the distraction of this each time the trailer direction indicators were used.

Hence, in my scheme of things, there would be seven mandatory warning lights.
Quote:
Now for the "des" lights

6) Heated rear window
7) Choke
8)Ignition light - not really needed if you have a Voltmeter, but probably too much trouble to lose it!
9) Daytime running lights - if these are not switched, but direct off the ignition then this is NRN too!
10) A catch-all for handbrake on, low brake or clutch fluid and brake pressure fault. Since all these work off the same style of switched earth circuit and all are basically related in function, why use 4 separate lights? And the handbrake function will act as a circuit check for all.
The Smith’s voltmeters in Triumph cars are heavily damped and take some time to respond to changes in supply voltage from the alternator and/or battery, including the sudden breakage of the textile-reinforced-rubber V-belt, which drives both the alternator, coolant water pump and if fitted, the belt-driven cooling fan. However, sudden failure of the V-belt, should cause the ignition warning light to illuminate almost instantaneously, drawing one’s attention to the coolant temperature gauge, voltmeter and ammeter.

In the past, I have used the dipped beams of my quartz-halogen H4 headlamps (presently 60/55W) during various daytime conditions when I perceived that it was necessary or desirable to render my vehicle more visible to oncoming drivers, such as when the sun is low on the horizon behind me, causing severe glare or there is a grey overcast sky, when many vehicle-colours (e.g. white, grey, silver and pastel shades) tend to merge into the background. I have often noted that vehicles of various colours, are less readily spotted when approaching from a distance, against the backdrop of urban concrete or an overcast sky.

I do not subscribe to the notion that daytime running lights should illuminate automatically whenever the engine is running, but be deployed when the weather and driving conditions make their use appropriate; implying the need for a separate switch and tell-tale warning lamp.

Unless one can quickly and easily clarify what event an illuminated warning-light relates to, by simply scanning one’s gauges, it could be confusing to use a single warning light for more than a single warning function, such as hand-brake-on, hydraulic-brake-circuit-failure and low-hydraulic-brake-fluid-level. For safety reasons, the hand-brake-on and hydraulic-brake-circuit failure, should have their own independent warning lights.

I have yet to confirm it, but I suspect that with the screw-cap float-switches for low hydraulic fluid levels and the hydraulic-brake-circuit failure switch, one has the option of either connecting the associated warning light to an ignition-controlled positive battery supply or to Earth. Judging from the electrical-circuit wiring diagrams for the Triumph Toledo & “four-headlamp” Dolomites, the only warning lights which require a direct ignition-controlled, positive battery-supply connection, are those for the alternator (i.e. ignition), choke, handbrake and fuel-level.

One could conceivably use a single warning light for low-hydraulic-brake-fluid-level and low-hydraulic-clutch-fluid-level; both of which would prompt stopping the car at the earliest safe opportunity to visually inspect the fluid levels. First I have to source some suitable reservoir screw-caps, incorporating float switches, for the dual-circuit-brake and clutch hydraulic master cylinders (both Lucas-Girling, with interchangeable screw-caps – circa 44¾ ± ¼ mm diameter & 3½ ± ¼ mm pitch), so any information about possible donor vehicles would be appreciated.

In October 1987, just a week after the “Hurricane” (that Michael Fish didn’t forecast) which devastated much of Great Britain, I was visiting the National Physical Laboratory, near Teddington, on the west side of London, when I experienced problems with my clutch. My first reaction was to stop at the next convenient place, where I could safely open the bonnet and inspect the clutch-fluid level in the reservoir, which proved to be empty!

Fortunately, I was able to drive home to Canvey Island, Essex, without too much difficulty and the following day removed the clutch hydraulic master & slave cylinders, whose seals had both leaked fluid. After thoroughly cleaning and inspecting the hydraulic system, I renewed the seals, refitted the master & slave cylinders, and filled up the system with Automec silicone hydraulic fluid; remembering to bleed the system of air. A Dymo label indicating that the fluid level should only be topped-up with silicone fluid, was affixed to the reservoir’s screw-cap dust-cover.

I had habitually inspected the clutch-fluid level at every 3,000-mile service interval prior to this event, but thereafter I inspected it weekly, together with all the other fluid levels and tyre pressures which I had previously inspected weekly.

In principle, one could also incorporate fluid-level sensors into the engine cooling system radiator or expansion tank and the windscreen-washer fluid reservoir.

VDO 12v and 24v LOW WATER ALARM PROBE suits Cars, Trucks, Machinary, etc. | Price: AU $49.00

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VDO-12v-and- ... Sww3tY5ZYl

During the early-1980s, when I drove the 80 mile journey each way at the weekend, between home and university, I would commonly use most of the windscreen-washer reservoir’s 2 pint water-capacity on wet days, when there was a lot of dirt-laden spray being deposited on the windscreen, but little if any rain to wash it off.

On one occasion, I had barely ½-inch of fluid remaining in the reservoir, despite having topped it up to the maximum, before departing on my 80 mile journey. For longer journeys under similar road, traffic and weather conditions, I either ideally needed a prompt to top up the reservoir in mid-journey, or substitute a larger capacity windscreen-washer reservoir!

In a properly maintained car, there should be little if any risk of sudden coolant, from a ruptured rubber hose or perforated radiator or heater matrix. However, I recall that during the early-1980s, my father’s 1977 Honda Civic 1500 Automatic, suffered a water-pump failure, which resulted in sudden coolant loss, followed by long waits to be taken home by AA Relay in stages.

One would hope that the sudden loss of pressurised, high-temperature “boiling” water (i.e. above the 100ºC boiling point, at standard atmospheric pressure), would betray its presence by clouds of condensing steam emerging from under the bonnet, but this might not always be the case. The decrease in coolant level in the engine block, to below the water-temperature sender in the thermostat housing, might also be betrayed by a reduction in temperature reading, but this could easily go un-noticed for some time.

Hence, a fluid-level sensor in the lower-half of the coolant expansion tank or top of the radiator, and link to a warning light and/or audible warning device, might be beneficial.

Quote:
7) Dip beam on warning - Only French cars have this! If you can see the lights are on and the main beam light is not, they MUST be on dip. If you must have a warning, say to guard against leaving headlights on in the daytime, fit a lights on/ignition off chime!
There are daytime conditions when it is appropriate to use dipped headlamps (e.g. during torrential rain, fog, snow or entry into a road tunnel, after which one might easily forget to switch them off. It’s debatable whether dedicated, lower intensity daytime running lights, would be adequate under these conditions.

Quote:
And finally to the "NRN" category (and why!)
1) Oil pressure warning - Why? you have a guage!
2) Low fuel warning - As above!
3) Electric fan warning - As above - and you can probably HEAR it running anyway!
4) Brake light activation _ I've driven cars with this and it's annoying and distracting!
5) Extra, hi power reverse light - You shouldn't have this anyway!
One has low-oil-pressure and low-fuel-level warning lights, because it’s not always appropriate to be constantly scanning gauges and unless one is paying close attention to the actual readings, one can readily overlook things. Besides that, fuel-level gauges are notoriously inaccurate and can lure one into a false sense of security, as my father discovered on a few occasions with our 1973 VW “1600” Type 2 campervan.

At low engine speeds and road speeds, one can usually hear the fan running, but on high-speed roads like motorways & dual-carriageways, with high traffic density, it is quite possible that ambient noise in the passenger cabin, might render the fan noise inaudible. On one occasion, the carbon brushes of the Kenlowe-fan-motor, wore down to the limit, so the fan did not operate. It was the illumination of the Kenlowe-fan warning light combined with the lack of fan noise, which alerted me to failure of the Kenlowe-fan-motor. At that stage, the coolant temperature gauge reading was in the red zone, but cooled down gradually after reducing my road speed.

At moderate road speeds, for which one uses relatively little engine power, ram air flow through the radiator core, usually provides adequate engine cooling, but some form of fan-assisted air flow is necessary, if driving in slow-moving traffic or during particularly warm weather. Fortunately for me, I always carried as a back-up in my touring-spares kit in the boot, the original belt-driven plastic cooling fan and securing bolts!

When I later disassembled the electric motor, I was intrigued to discover that its carbon-brush holder assembly, was identical to that of the Smith’s heater & ventilation booster-fan motor, of which I happened to have a spare! Hence, the Kenlowe-fan was restored to full operational status with little delay.

Only when I need to stop at a road junction or decelerate rapidly, do I use my hydraulic brakes. I mostly slow down gradually by easing off the throttle, but many drivers are not sufficiently attentive to realise what I am doing, so I commonly touch the brake pedal very lightly with my left foot to activate the brake-light switch. Often I can hear the click of the Toledo’s brake-light switch, but not always, so it would be useful to have a brake-light tell-tale lamp, so that I can be sure the brake lights are illuminating.

At some stage I might also incorporate a steering-column mounted, finger-operated momentary switch to activate the brake lights, as I have already done on the 1973 VW “1600” Type 2 campervan, whose brake-light switches are operated by hydraulic pressure and are inaudible. If I incorporate a diode, I could limit illumination of the brake-light tell-tale, to those occasions when a finger-operated momentary switch is used.

Given that ordinary legal reversing lights (intended only to indicate one’s intention to reverse), provide wholly inadequate illumination to safely reverse a vehicle under pitch-black conditions, as previously described, pragmatism must prevail, so the high-intensity H3 55W quartz-halogen, auxiliary reversing lights will be retained; necessitating a highly visible tell-tale lamp on the dashboard.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Canvey Island, Essex
Warning-Light Provision & Cold-Air Vent Relocation
Quote:
(examples only) with a choice of only 4 or 5 colours and 22 lights, duplication is inevitable!
If one confines one’s choices to the colour filters that were factory-fitted to any given Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light cluster, then the colour options are certainly limited to five of the following:

Dark Blue, Dark Green, Yellow, Dark Red and Orange or Magenta

I like Magenta as a colour, but the light-transmission-coefficient of the associated colour filter is low and the human eyes’ daytime colour-vision sensitivity to light at the blue end of the colour spectrum is much lower than that for the other colours. In daylight conditions, a Magenta warning light could easily go un-noticed, so although I shall give it a try, I will probably use another more visible colour in preference.

Noting that ICI Perspex transparent and translucent acrylic sheet, is available in a variety of thicknesses, colours and shades, it is possible to increase one’s available filter-colour options; including white, light-grey, light-red, orange, light-green, turquoise, light-blue, purple.

http://www.perspex.co.uk/products/persp ... x-colours/

http://www.perspex.co.uk/products/colour-selector/

http://www.plasticsheets.com/light-blue-perspex-sheet/

http://www.plasticsheets.com/grey-perspex-sheet/

http://www.plasticsheets.com/white-perspex-sheet/

http://www.plasticsheets.com/purple-perspex-sheet/

In addition to creating unique emblems for each individual warning-light function, this was previously discussed in the following topic thread:

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » Customising Lucas 60 mm, 8-Segment, Warning-Light Clusters

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29490

Forum Index > Accessories/Memorabilia/Toys > Upgrading warning-light function & provision

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=257858

Of the eyes’ three colour receptors for red, green & blue, those for blue have about 75% less sensitivity than those for red or green, at their peak wavelengths or frequencies, in the range 400~700 nm (i.e. 4000~7000 Å)

The human eyes’ sensitivity to different colours of light, is discussed in some detail on Pages 15 & 35 of the following book:

David Malin & Paul Murdin, “Colours of the Stars”, Cambridge University Press, 1984, ISBN 0 521 25714 X.

Quote:
Now consider the late model Dolomite 8 segment warning light cluster the lights being (clockwise from the top) :-
1) indicator repeater (both sides)(Green) - Keep this unchanged.
2) Oil pressure warning (Green) - Repurpose as driving light warning.
3) Low fuel warning (Yellow) - Repurpose as front fog light warning.
4) Handbrake on warning (Red) - Keep this but add additional circuits for pressure drop and fluid levels.
5) Main beam warning light (Blue) - Keep this unchanged.
6) Choke (Yellow) - Keep this unchanged.
7) Heated rear window (Purple) - Keep this unchanged.
8) Ignition warning light (Red) - Keep this unchanged.

So that is 8 from 10, by using the factory late model rear fog light switch which is internally illuminated, you then only need to find one extra warning light for the DRLs - which is only borderline necessary anyway!
In a factory-standard Dolomite, which has only eight dashboard warning lights (unlike modern cars which typically have circa 20~40), in addition to the brake-circuit-failure warning light and seat-belts-not-fastened warning light, mixing different types of warning & tell-tale functions in the same cluster presents no problem.

However, in a system having many more warning lights, it makes more sense to group similar functions together. Within a given cluster, individual functions can often be positioned in a way that correlates with the application, as is done on the control panels for chemical-process plants and nuclear reactors.

As previously mentioned, it is my intention to use the original Toledo speedometer, with its three integral warning lights, for ignition (red), oil-pressure (green) and headlamp main beam (blue). If it’s practical to use a matching style tachometer with two integral warning lights, originally for R & L direction indicators (green) and heated rear window (magenta), then I might slightly revise the following provisional allocation of warning-light functions, to the two 60 mm Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light clusters.

If using two 60 mm Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light clusters, it makes sense to employ one each of the early-model and late-model warning-light clusters (or at least early-model and late-model printed circuit boards with bulb holders), to avoid the possibility of fitting the moulded thermo-setting plastic, multi-way connector blocks, to the wrong warning-light cluster. The early-model and late-model printed circuit boards, have 8+3 connection-pin and 12 connection-pin configuration respectively.

Early-model (dark-brown PCB on left) and late-model (light-brown PCB on right) printed circuit boards with bulb holders & bulbs

Image

Early-model (dark-brown PCB on left, with 8+3 rivetted brass connection pins) and late-model (light-brown PCB on right with 12 rivetted brass connection pins) showing the connection pins and associated push-on connector blocks.

Image

Because of the way I wish to allocate warning functions to the two 8-segment warning-light clusters and the specific individual segments within a cluster, it makes sense to me to use an early-model printed circuit board with a late-model transparent lens (with direction-indicator, double-headed arrow) and a late-model printed circuit board with an early-model transparent lens.

For example, if one turns a late-model Dolomite’s 8-segment warning-light cluster up-side-down, with the double-headed arrow at the bottom, then reading clockwise from the top, one could provisionally allocate functions as follows:

(1) 000º – Auxiliary driving lights (LIGHT-BLUE) [PCB – H’BRK]
(2) 045º – Front fog lights (LIGHT-GREEN) [PCB – CHOKE] – peasouper fog or smog
(3) 090º – Right-hand direction indicator (ORANGE) [PCB – <L]
(4) 135º – Rear fog lights (LIGHT-GREEN) [PCB – OIL] – peasouper fog or smog
(5) 180º – Trailer direction indicator (ORANGE) [PCB – BEAM]


202½º – Locating Lug for Transparent Circular Lens

(6) 225º – Brake-lights on (RED) [PCB – IGN]
(7) 270º – Left-hand direction indicator (ORANGE) [PCB – FUEL]


292½º – Locating Lug for Early-Model PCB

(8) 315º – Dipped headlamps (DARK-GREEN) [PCB – R>]

All of these tell-tell warning-light functions, associated with lamps used in driving, require a direct Earth connection, so there would be no problem with choosing any given warning-light segment location for a particular function, with either an early-model or late-model printed circuit board.

Arranged in this configuration, tell-tale light functions, exclusively for illuminated lamps pertaining to driving, at (a) the front, (b) front & rear or in between, or (c) rear, are positioned so far as it is possible, above, along, or below the horizontal axis of the circular cluster.

The car’s direction indicators are located at both the front & rear (plus the side, if I later retro-fit side-repeater lamps, as is obligatory on cars first-registered after circa 1983), so the tell-tale warning lights are positioned along the horizontal axis of the circular cluster.

The trailer’s direction indicators are located solely at the rear, so warning lights are positioned at the bottom of the circular cluster.

Having all three, distinctively shaped, orange warning-light segments, with appropriately-shaped arrow emblems, close to one another in a T-shaped configuration, enables one to see quickly and easily which direction indicator functions are operating correctly, or not as the case may be.

Auxiliary driving lights, dipped headlamps and front fog lamps, located at the front of the car, have corresponding colour-coded warning-light segments positioned above the horizontal axis of the circular cluster.

Auxiliary reversing lights, rear fog lights and trailer direction indicators located at the rear of the car, have corresponding colour-coded warning-light segments positioned below the horizontal axis of the circular cluster.

*****************************************************************************

OPTION 1

Using a similar Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light cluster with late-model, light-tan, PCB – printed-circuit board and a late-model or early-model, customised (i.e. modified) transparent circular lens, then reading clockwise from the top (i.e. 000º), one could provisionally allocate additional mainly non-lamp functions as follows:

000º – Top of transparent-lens’s vertical silver boundary line
000º – Locating lug for late-model, tan coloured PCB

(A) 022½º – Kenlowe radiator-cooling-fan on (ORANGE) [PCB – FUEL]
(B) 067½º – Daytime running lights (WHITE or LIGHT-GREY) [PCB – H. BRAKE]


090º – Right hand side of transparent-lens’s horizontal silver boundary line
090º – Gap between late-model, tan-coloured PCB’s circle of 12 connection pins

(C) 112½º – Heated rear-window demist on (MAGENTA) [PCB – CHOKE]
(D) 157½º – Low fuel level (RED) [PCB – DEMIST]

180º – Bottom of transparent-lens’s vertical silver boundary line

(E) 202½º – Auxiliary reversing lights (WHITE or YELLOW) [PCB – DEMIST]
(F) 247½º – Hand-brake-lever on (YELLOW) [PCB – OIL]

270º – Left hand side of transparent-lens’s horizontal silver boundary line
270º – Locating lug for circular transparent lens

(G) 292½º – Carburettor choke on (YELLOW) [PCB – D. I.]
(H) 337½º – Low hydraulic clutch and/or brake fluid (RED) [PCB – BEAM]

360º – Top of transparent-lens’s vertical silver boundary line

Keeping in mind that warning lights for the choke, handbrake and fuel-level, require a direct ignition-controlled, positive battery-supply connection, the late-model printed-circuit board which would normally be 112½º clockwise from the top, needs to be re-orientated, so that its locating lug is at the top.

*****************************************************************************

OPTION 2

Using a similar Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light cluster with late-model, light-tan, PCB – printed-circuit board and a late-model or early-model, customised (i.e. modified) transparent circular lens, then reading clockwise from the top (i.e. 000º), one could provisionally allocate additional mainly non-lamp functions as follows:

000º – Top of transparent-lens’s vertical silver boundary line
000º – Gap between late-model, tan-coloured PCB’s circle of 12 connection pins

(A) 022½º – Low hydraulic clutch and/or brake fluid (RED) [PCB – CHOKE]
(B) 067½º – Carburettor choke on (YELLOW) [PCB – DEMIST]

090º – Right hand side of transparent-lens’s horizontal silver boundary line

(C) 112½º – Heated rear-window demist on (MAGENTA) [PCB – OIL]
(D) 157½º – Low fuel level (RED) [PCB – D. I.]

180º – Bottom of transparent-lens’s vertical silver boundary line
180º – Locating lug for circular transparent lens

(E) 202½º – Hand-brake-lever on (YELLOW) [PCB – BEAM]
(F) 247½º – Auxiliary reversing lights (WHITE or YELLOW) [PCB – IGN]

270º – Left hand side of transparent-lens’s horizontal silver boundary line
270º – Locating lug for late-model, tan coloured PCB

(G) 292½º – Kenlowe radiator-cooling-fan on (ORANGE) [PCB – FUEL]
(H) 337½º – Daytime running lights (LIGHT-GREEN) [PCB – H. BRAKE]


360º – Top of transparent-lens’s vertical silver boundary line

Keeping in mind that warning lights for the choke, handbrake and fuel-level, require a direct ignition-controlled, positive battery-supply connection, the late-model printed-circuit board which would normally be 112½º clockwise from the top, needs to be re-orientated, so that its locating lug is 270º clockwise from the top.

*****************************************************************************

The hydraulic clutch & brake fluid reservoirs and carburettor choke, are both located at the front of the car on the right-hand side, so it seems appropriate to locate the corresponding colour-coded warning-light segments, positioned above the horizontal axis of the circular cluster on the right-hand side, as indicated in OPTION 2.

The Kenlowe radiator-cooling-fan and daytime running lights, are also both located at the front of the car, so it seems appropriate to locate the corresponding colour-coded warning-light segments, positioned above the horizontal axis of the circular cluster in vacant sites on the left-hand side, as indicated in OPTION 2.

The heated rear window, fuel tank, brake lights and auxiliary reversing lights are located at the rear of the car, have corresponding colour-coded warning-light segments positioned below the horizontal axis of the circular cluster.

Quote:
Just a couple of quick points, 1) your list of warning lights includes 2 for low fuel at *15 and *20
As you rightly noted, I did mistakenly duplicate my listing of a warning light for low fuel level, which is very remiss of me! If I use a single warning light for low fluid levels in both the hydraulic brake and clutch reservoirs, I would need only twenty warning lights in total, which can be catered for by using two Lucas 6WL, 60 mm diameter, 8-segment warning-light clusters, the three warning lights in the speedometer and the separate hydraulic-brake-circuit-failure warning light.

If I had a 100 mm tachometer with two integral warning lights, I might reallocate the warning functions slightly. This might involve having the ignition & low-oil-pressure warning lights in the tachometer and have headlamp-main-beam, headlamp-dipped-beam & side-light tell-tale warning lights in the speedometer. A side-light tell-tale warning light, is a normal factory-fitted feature of the instrumentation in the 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 van, which has been quite useful on occasions.

Hence, the tell-tale warning light for DRLs – daytime running lights, could be reallocated from position “H” in the second 8-segment cluster (OPTION 2), to position “8” in the first 8-segment cluster, which would be more logical.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4275
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Well I still think it's TOO much information! But your car, your rules!

It kinda reminds me of a warning label that was popular when i was a young lad, usually applied to the glove box lid of go-faster and rally replica Anglias and Escorts (the sort that ALWAYS had a huge spotlight on the back) It said, as near as I can remember, in best fake German,

"Dieses machinen ist nicht fur der gerfingerpoken undt mittengraben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerke mit der blowenfusen, poppenkorken undt der grosser spitzensparken. Das rubbernecken sightseeren, keepen der HANDS in das POCKETS, relaxen undt watchen der blinkenlights!"

I have tried without success to find one of these to affix to the Carledo's glovebox lid! Just goes with my sense of humour!

A few observations, however.

I agree that the dash in the Carledo, whilst functional, is not at all aesthetically pleasing. In fact it will shortly be replaced with something more traditional, not for the aesthetics, though that IS a bonus, but because the PCB behind the Nova dash is dying and new ones are completely unobtainable!
The brake line lock is, i'm afraid for semi nefarious purposes. When drag racing, it is advantageous to heat the tyres by doing a "burnout" before running and the line lock enables this whilst keeping the car stationary. It's totally illegal to use on the road, but since I don't use it on the road, Mr Plod will never know I have it! I can be pragmatic too!

On the brake light warning light, this doesn't tell you that the brake lights are working, only that the switch is. And your idea of a momentary switch to put the brake lights on is also thoroughly illegal. I actually know of one or two people who have been prosecuted for this! I'm also not sanguine about the actual usefulness of this device, but that's just me.

On the low water sensor and light, I agree its a good idea, which I will probably be incorporating into the dash of my current Dolomega project. However I reckon that a bigger washer bottle is a better solution than a warning light to tell you the tiddly one is empty!

On the brake pressure warning light, the very late Dolomites with dual circuit brakes have a pressure differential warning sensor with a earthed switch which illuminates - wait for it - the handbrake warning light! Which was suitably relabeled "brake" rather than the earlier "hand brake" Fluid level sensors in the reservoir caps that are common on moderns always have 2 terminals and it really doesn't matter whether you feed one side and earth the bulb, or earth one side and feed the bulb, it's only a simple switch!
So for my money, it's still practical to incorporate 4 functions into one light here. Say you are driving along and the red light comes on, it's a red light so you know something serious is wrong. Instinctively, you will back off the gas and fiddle with the handbrake lever to make sure its off. Within a second or two and still shedding speed, the light has not cleared, you stop at the nearest safe spot and find out why! As all these functions are related and important, you don't need to know immediately WHICH circuit has failed, just that one has and that it needs immediate investigation.

Finally, onto the business of reading instruments. Am I the only one who does this then? As a young man, i learned to fly light aircraft and it was impressed on me from the start that you check your instruments frequently till it becomes habitual. This same habit has carried over into my driving. It's akin to the "autopilot" that you have in your hindbrain (traditionally known as George) that actually drives your car leaving you free to look out of the window for hazards. George knows where the controls are and how to use them. In a car (or plane) that you are familiar with, George also knows what guages do what and how they should look. This is the beauty of an analogue guage, you don't have to "read" it, a 2 millisecond glance will tell if the needle is where it should be. (This is why digital dashboards are so hopeless, you have to actually READ the numbers to make sense of the data presented - which takes MUCH longer) This is also why my massively inaccurate speedo doesn't bother me in the slightest, it is self consistent, an indicated 60 mph is a true 100 and an indicated 18 mph is a true 30. But after 6 years with the beast, the numbers are irrelevant, George knows how fast I am going, merely by the position of the needle and gathers information from all the instruments at frequent (5-10 seconds) intervals almost subliminally, certainly without any conscious effort from me! So I repeat, am I alone in this? And if so, why does anybody else even bother to HAVE instruments if they're not going to look at them?

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:40 am
Posts: 80
(Deep tone) You are not alone...

Really interesting :-) Two schools of thought:

If you are really, really busy (e.g. racing), and you simply need to know if you can carry on racing or need to stop, very simple warnings are all you want and need. A big FO amber light (carry on, off the racing line, SLOWLY back to the paddock) and a big FO red light (stop instantly). Nothing more than that.

If you are driving what is basically a GT - not turning it up to 11, just cruising along - then your set of analogue gauges is perfect. Lots of information but a quick sweep every few seconds ("are all the needles in the right place?") will tell you whether you are OK or need to worry about something. This is where some manufacturers will turn gauges round so that the "normal" readings are all straight up and down, all very simple ready for the quick sweeping glance every few seconds.

Long ago I did some analysis of decisionmaking in a particular setting, for work; getting it right is remarkably simple, but a bit subtle. Think about the decision you have to make - what courses of action do you have? What information will actually tell you unequivocally which COA to take? The information you need is simply, and ONLY, that. Not only is more information unnecessary, but it's actually damaging to your decisionmaking as it obscures the critical data. If you are going flat-out, do you need to know your oil pressure is 45psi when previously it was 48? 45psi is more than enough to feed the engine, it's only if the oil pressure suddenly drops to 20 that you need to worry. So a HP switch and a big light is more use in a race or rally car than a gauge...

Of course a data logger would be handy, if the big FO lights come on and you stop, to tell you what had gone wrong and what you have to mend - by stopping you will hopefully have avoided critical damage and only have to fix the original fault with no consequent damage.

On the Trolley (JJB) I fitted the Dolomite curved dash and the big multi-function warning light, I wired most of the warning light segments up so if anything important lit up, EVERYTHING lit up like a Christmas tree :-)

PS LOVE the fake German instruction label... if you find it, can you send it to me too please?

Naskeet, I won't argue with your thoughts on colour perception - fascinating to look at what the eye responds to and how.

_________________
Ian.

"Bodging old Triumphs since 1983."
Member no. 2017038

Toledo MOY579L (brown 2-door)
and previously...
Dolomite Sprint xxxyyyM (yellow)
Toledo JJB923K (burgundy 2-door)
Dolomite xxxyyyT (blue 1850HL)
Dolomite TRX773M (white 1850)
Dolomite xxxyyyR (white 1500HL)
Toledo YRO318K (burgundy 2-door )


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