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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Steve,
You are not alone in this, especially driving KAC, I don't consciously read any instrument, except the speedo, but it the oil pressure, volts, or water start to move, I know.

I hate the jaguar dash, which has so many irrelevant symbols, and information on the dash. Ranging from lane deviation, to my adblue tank wants topping up in 1500 miles.

On my old rally car, the instruments were minimised to revs, speed, oil fuel and water. Plus 3 warning lights, ignition, oil 15 psi and oil 3 psi.

I was concentrating on the road rather than the instruments, and other than on forced downchanges, you'd argue the tacho was irrelevant.

20 plus warning lights is, in my opinion, too much

_________________
BWJ
1966 Triumph 1300 Royal Blue - fixed, ready to blow up
1972 Triumph Dolomite Sienna / David Brown
1965 Triumph 2000 Black
2005 BMW R1200ST Grey/Silver (for sale, enquire if interested)
2009 Fiat Panda White
2016 Jaguar XE Blue
NOBODY expects the Canley Inquisition!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:44 pm 
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My hillclimb car (Rover 25) has - in terms of relevant gauges - a tacho and coolant temp, and a small handful of warning lights. Fuel is not really relevant so long as it stays above the very bottom (SO embarrassing, running out on the hill) and speed is only of interest when watching the video later.

I look at the tacho and temp gauge for starts and that's about all. For the rest of the time I'm looking at the track ahead. I'm thinking actually of adding a loud buzzer/siren to go off if any of the warning lights come on, as I rarely look at the dashboard when driving...

_________________
Ian.

"Bodging old Triumphs since 1983."
Member no. 2017038

Toledo MOY579L (brown 2-door)
and previously...
Dolomite Sprint xxxyyyM (yellow)
Toledo JJB923K (burgundy 2-door)
Dolomite xxxyyyT (blue 1850HL)
Dolomite TRX773M (white 1850)
Dolomite xxxyyyR (white 1500HL)
Toledo YRO318K (burgundy 2-door )


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Location: Canvey Island, Essex
Warning-Light Provision & Cold-Air Vent Relocation
Quote:
Well I still think it's TOO much information! But your car, your rules!
It’s all about making oneself aware of a situation, before it becomes a serious or even a critical problem.

Quote:
It kinda reminds me of a warning label that was popular when i was a young lad, usually applied to the glove box lid of go-faster and rally replica Anglias and Escorts (the sort that ALWAYS had a huge spotlight on the back) It said, as near as I can remember, in best fake German.
My 1973 VW “1600” Type 2 campervan has some factory-fitted warning stickers in genuine German; such as “Sitz nicht wahrend der fahrt benutzen” and “Fahren nur mit veriegelter shiebatur”. Having taken GCE “O” German at school during the early-1970s, I can better understand genuine German (including the Austrian and Swiss varieties) than fake German.

I remember seeing Ford Escort Mk.1s with a single high-level, rear-mounted circular spot-lamps, which I presumed was intended to aid night-time reversing!?! In Sweden, an extremely safety-conscious country re motoring, 55W quartz-halogen reversing lights (auxiliary or otherwise), appear to have been legal for a long time, and have been openly advertised in Swedish automotive mail-order catalogues as such.

I also remember various cars being adorned with prominent white & black striped stickers, bearing the words DISC BRAKES, as though these cars needed to be given a wide berth or greater following distance, as an extra precaution against running into the back of them.

I much prefer the rear-panel sticker which states, “This car might be old and it might be slow, but it’s paid for and it’s in front of you”.

Quote:
On the brake light warning light, this doesn't tell you that the brake lights are working, only that the switch is. And your idea of a momentary switch to put the brake lights on is also thoroughly illegal. I actually know of one or two people who have been prosecuted for this! I'm also not sanguine about the actual usefulness of this device, but that's just me.
It would be interesting to learn, for what offence or offences the drivers were actually prosecuted, which might have been for the manner or circumstances in which they had activated their brake lights, rather than the method by which they had been activated.

In what statute if any (e.g. Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations or Construction & Use Regulations), does it specifically state that brake lights may not be capable of being activated independently of the brakes?

I agree that a brake-light warning light only tells one that the brake-light switch is functioning, but this is also true of the headlamp main-beam warning light and possibly various other warning lights. Even when firmly depressing the brake pedal, one cannot be certain that the brake lights are functioning!

As part of my weekly maintenance program, I commonly tested the functioning of my various obligatory lamps, including the brake lights. Reflected images, of the illuminated, rear-mounted lights, were clearly visible in the glass doors of the Urban District Council Offices opposite my driveway, so I could quickly and easily check all of these on a daily basis.

One should note that the original factory-fitted brake-light switch, is a manifestation of a momentary switch, rather than a latched switch. Even if I do not retro-fit a separate supplementary, finger-operated brake-light switch, I can still activate the brake lights using the brake pedal, without activating the hydraulic brakes. I fail to comprehend the fundamental difference between activating brake lights using a foot-operated switch or finger-operated switch, if in both cases the brakes are not being applied!?!

On too many occasions, when approaching roundabouts or other junctions with GIVE WAY lines, I have needed to slow down but not stop, which did not require any use of my brakes, but did require a warning to the drivers behind, who were following far too close and/or not paying proper attention. I needed to draw their attention to the fact that I was slowing down, either by use of the appropriate hand signal (which few drivers seem to comprehend and which is no longer included in the driving test!) or by activating the brake lights.

If one uses cadence braking on a slippery surface, which is a legitimate driving technique, then the brake lights will flash on and off, that some following drivers might find distracting, but would the use of a hand-operated momentary switch, to flash the brake lights on and off, be any more or less distracting!?! It might however, wake up the dozy driver behind, who is half asleep or is too busy with the illegal task of using their mobile telephone, laptop or tablet computer.

Quote:
On the low water sensor and light, I agree its a good idea, which I will probably be incorporating into the dash of my current Dolomega project. However I reckon that a bigger washer bottle is a better solution than a warning light to tell you the tiddly one is empty!
As you are probably already aware, it is an offence to have an inoperative windscreen wiper and/or washer system, the latter of which might simply be attributable to an empty windscreen-washer reservoir. I recall reading about one motorist who was stopped by police for another reason, during which they also discovered his empty windscreen-washer reservoir, for which he was subsequently fined.

I certainly feel inclined to substitute a larger-capacity windscreen-washer reservoir. It remains to be seen, whether I can find or make, a suitably large capacity windscreen washer reservoir, which can be readily mounted in the Toledo’s engine compartment. Hopefully, in the meantime, I can avoid running out of windscreen-washer fluid, on any long journeys I undertake!

The Swedish specification, 1974~79 VW Type 2, is factory-fitted with a combined windscreen-washer & headlamp-washer reservoir of 8•0 litres (14•08 Imperial pints or 1•76 Imperial gallons) capacity, which I shall retro-fit to my British specification, 1973 VW “1600” Type 2 campervan, when and iff I can find one, at a price I can afford.

Quote:
On the brake pressure warning light, the very late Dolomites with dual circuit brakes have a pressure differential warning sensor with an earthed switch which illuminates - wait for it - the handbrake warning light! Which was suitably relabelled "brake" rather than the earlier "hand brake".
The pressure-differential warning sensors that I salvaged from two late-model Triumph Dolomites, both seemed to have two electrical connections, so I presumed there was no Earth through the housing. This is something I shall check. Both cars also featured a separate, rectangular red-lensed “brake” warning-light unit, of the same configuration as the “fasten belt” warning-light unit. There was a separate “brake” warning light (rather than “park brake” warning light) in the Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster.

Looking at the electrical-circuit wiring diagram (marked MTO195/2) & associated key, for LHD Dolomite models, on Pages 86.00.06 & 86.00.07 of the BLMC Triumph, of the official loose-leaf, 2nd edition (© 1973) Dolomite Repair Operation Manual (Publication Part Number 545206) that I borrowed from Essex Libraries, it appears that some LHD vehicles had the option of a “tandem brake circuit”, with Item 73 – “brake line failure switch” and Item 72 – “brake line failure warning light”.

To say the least, the associated electrical circuit, including the oil-pressure warning light and oil-pressure switch, appears decidedly weird, although it might be intended as a means of testing the “brake line failure warning light” when the ignition is first switched on! In effect, the oil-pressure warning light & switch are connected in series with the “brake line failure warning light”; the oil-pressure circuit being short-circuited when the “brake line failure switch” closes.

It’s possible that the late-model RHD Dolomite might have a different circuit, but I have yet to find an electrical-circuit wiring diagram for one of these.

Quote:
Fluid level sensors in the reservoir caps that are common on moderns always have 2 terminals and it really doesn't matter whether you feed one side and earth the bulb, or earth one side and feed the bulb, it's only a simple switch!
It still remains to find suitable modern-car donors, of two fluid-reservoir screw-caps, with fluid-level switches, of the appropriate thread size for my Dolomite & Toledo brake-fluid & clutch-fluid reservoirs!

The only modern cars with which I have had any acquaintance, were a 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4 (with optional ABS & air conditioning) and a 2004 SEAT Leon Cupra 20VT. The former I did quite a bit of work on over a 20 year period, but on the latter, I did only basic weekly maintenance checks until my father died in 2011, after which we disposed of this money pit.

I am well acquainted with “simple switches” and how to design, analyse and build simple DC and AC electrical circuits. In bygone years, I also had practical experience of 3-phase AC electrical equipment.

Quote:
Finally, onto the business of reading instruments. Am I the only one who does this then? As a young man, i learned to fly light aircraft and it was impressed on me from the start that you check your instruments frequently till it becomes habitual.
Being a mildly myopic spectacle wearer, I wasn’t able to gain entry into the University of London Air Squadron during the mid-to-late-1970s. During the early-to-mid-1980s, I could have taken flying lessons at Cranfield Institute of Technology (home of the College of Aeronautics), where I was a student in the School of Mechanical Engineering (formerly the Department of Propulsion), but even with a student discount, flying lessons were about £22 per hour, which was well beyond my means!

However, I did have some involvement with the technical aspects of aircraft and later tutored some aspiring commercial pilots in the physics & mathematics of flight and flying.

Just flying an aircraft in controlled airspace, requires regular repetitive attention to various instruments (e.g. airspeed indicator, artificial horizon, altimeter, rate of climb indicator, compass, propeller-pitch indicator and trim), in addition to monitoring the engines’ performance and operating condition indicators (e.g. fuel reserves, throttle position, engine-rpm, oil pressure, oil temperature, cylinder-head temperatures – each cylinder, exhaust-gas temperatures – each cylinder, carburettor & inlet-manifold temperature and fuel-air mixture).

If an aircraft system is in danger of failing, one needs to become aware of it before the situation becomes critical; particularly if it concerns the engine, its ancillaries or the control surfaces. Unlike a terrestrial vehicle one cannot simply coast to a halt at the side of the road when something goes wrong.

Carburettor icing is a well-known hazard on light aircraft, which can develop rapidly, leading to loss of power and engine stalling (in addition to aerodynamic stalling), as I similarly discovered with the VW Type 2’s air-cooled engine under certain weather & atmospheric conditions. If the engine dies, for one reason or another, one might have little time available to select a suitable emergency landing strip (e.g. Hudson River), especially if flying at low altitude, because most powered aircraft have a relatively poor glide ratio.

Although most aircraft (possibly excluding the Edgeley Optica and the Scottish Aviation Twin Pioneer) travel much faster than cars, the three-dimensional sky is rather less crowded than the roads and require fewer and less frequent changes of direction and speed; allowing one a greater proportion of time to check instrument readings.

Quote:
If you are really, really busy (e.g. racing), and you simply need to know if you can carry on racing or need to stop, very simple warnings are all you want and need. A big FO amber light (carry on, off the racing line, SLOWLY back to the paddock) and a big FO red light (stop instantly). Nothing more than that.
Quote:
Think about the decision you have to make - what courses of action do you have? What information will actually tell you unequivocally which COA to take?

If you are going flat-out, do you need to know your oil pressure is 45psi when previously it was 48? 45psi is more than enough to feed the engine, it's only if the oil pressure suddenly drops to 20 that you need to worry. So a HP switch and a big light is more use in a race or rally car than a gauge...

Of course a data logger would be handy, if the big FO lights come on and you stop, to tell you what had gone wrong and what you have to mend - by stopping you will hopefully have avoided critical damage and only have to fix the original fault with no consequent damage.
I have never been a great fan of abbreviations and acronyms at the best of times; especially if I cannot find them defined earlier in the text or the glossary. I presume COA and HP stand for “course of action” and “high pressure” respectively, but I still cannot fathom what FO stands for!?!

In the context in which you were writing, I imagine that an LP – low-pressure, break-on-rise, oil-pressure switch would be appropriate for indicating a sudden reduction in oil pressure from 45 to 20 psi. An HP – high-pressure, break-on-fall, oil-pressure switch, might be appropriate to indicate the development of excessive oil pressure, as a consequence of oil-gallery blockage or lubricating oil that is too viscous, which could arise from low ambient temperature.

I like data loggers, having used them for my scientific experimental work in the past, but I think it would be VERY expensive to equip a Triumph Toledo or Dolomite with one of these, together with the necessary transducers.

Quote:
On the Trolley (JJB) I fitted the Dolomite curved dash and the big multi-function warning light, I wired most of the warning light segments up so if anything important lit up, EVERYTHING lit up like a Christmas tree :-)
Quote:
I'm thinking actually of adding a loud buzzer/siren to go off if any of the warning lights come on, as I rarely look at the dashboard when driving...
Having a separate, single prominent flashing warning light, in one’s main zone of vision, to alert one to the fact that one or more critical-function warning lights had illuminated, would be preferable to having “EVERYTHING lit up like a Christmas tree”, because if everything lit up, one would not know which critical function had precipitated this event.

Quote:
Lots of information but a quick sweep every few seconds ("are all the needles in the right place?") will tell you whether you are OK or need to worry about something. This is where some manufacturers will turn gauges round so that the "normal" readings are all straight up and down, all very simple ready for the quick sweeping glance every few seconds.
It would be considered normal practice, in the nuclear and chemical process industries, to orientate analogue gauges, so that for normal readings, the pointers all point in the same direction, which makes both positive and negative deviations from the norm, quicker and easier to detect with a brief glance.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Nigel,

I won't presume to respond to Steve's bits, but in response to your replies to me...

COA is indeed Course of Action (I'd used it earlier in the sentence but hadn't capitalised them, apologies!) and HP in this context is high-pressure, and yes I was meaning a break-on-rise switch to warn of dropping pressure. FO in this context means something rude - "a big FO warning light" is simply a very large prominent light :-)

A break-on-fall switch and light indicating excessive pressure is probably more relevant to the aircraft industry where as you so rightly mention lower temperatures can cause problems unlikely in a car - at least here in the UK!

With the Dolomite multi purpose warning light, the two triggers for everything to light up were oil and alternator, so with a voltmeter and oil pressure gauge elsewhere on the dashboard you didn't have to look too far to work out what was wrong, the point about the Christmas Tree was that it was prominent and therefore eye-catching, and used an existing mounting point in the fascia so it was better integrated into the fascia than plonking a light on top of the dashboard instead.

On the hillclimb car, "in one's main zone of vision" means in the centre of the windscreen :-) and I haven't come up with a functioning head-up display yet!

Another really good example of the technique of orienting the gauges so that "normal" readings all read the same, is the nut position indicators on lorry wheels - all those fluorescent tabs that fit onto the wheels with an arrow pointing around the circumference. Again, instantly obvious if something has moved.

_________________
Ian.

"Bodging old Triumphs since 1983."
Member no. 2017038

Toledo MOY579L (brown 2-door)
and previously...
Dolomite Sprint xxxyyyM (yellow)
Toledo JJB923K (burgundy 2-door)
Dolomite xxxyyyT (blue 1850HL)
Dolomite TRX773M (white 1850)
Dolomite xxxyyyR (white 1500HL)
Toledo YRO318K (burgundy 2-door )


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4275
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Warning-Light Provision & Cold-Air Vent Relocation


I remember seeing Ford Escort Mk.1s with a single high-level, rear-mounted circular spot-lamps, which I presumed was intended to aid night-time reversing!?! In Sweden, an extremely safety-conscious country re motoring, 55W quartz-halogen reversing lights (auxiliary or otherwise), appear to have been legal for a long time, and have been openly advertised in Swedish automotive mail-order catalogues as such.

I also remember various cars being adorned with prominent white & black striped stickers, bearing the words DISC BRAKES, as though these cars needed to be given a wide berth or greater following distance, as an extra precaution against running into the back of them.

I much prefer the rear-panel sticker which states, “This car might be old and it might be slow, but it’s paid for and it’s in front of you”.
Quote:

In Britain, the spotlight as a reverse light has been illegal since before rallied up MkI Escorts were the height of cool, something to do with not showing a white light to the rear and dazzling other road users when accidentally leaving it on. Swedish legislators obviously have more open minds (and many more unlit roads)
I believe, in the late 50s and early 60s, the Disc Brake warning came close to being mandatory, don't forget, in those days there were still many cars on the road with poor or useless rod or cable operated brakes and a disc braked car needed more lead time!

My own personal favourite stickers are "they said i'd inherit an estate and this is it" which adorned my Volvo Amazon estate car, "4 sprung pork technic" accompanied by a little picture of a pig with springs for legs, a dig at a now old Audi advert - and my current "Built, not bought!"

Quote:
On the brake light warning light, this doesn't tell you that the brake lights are working, only that the switch is. And your idea of a momentary switch to put the brake lights on is also thoroughly illegal. I actually know of one or two people who have been prosecuted for this! I'm also not sanguine about the actual usefulness of this device, but that's just me.
It would be interesting to learn, for what offence or offences the drivers were actually prosecuted, which might have been for the manner or circumstances in which they had activated their brake lights, rather than the method by which they had been activated.

In what statute if any (e.g. Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations or Construction & Use Regulations), does it specifically state that brake lights may not be capable of being activated independently of the brakes?

I agree that a brake-light warning light only tells one that the brake-light switch is functioning, but this is also true of the headlamp main-beam warning light and possibly various other warning lights. Even when firmly depressing the brake pedal, one cannot be certain that the brake lights are functioning!

As part of my weekly maintenance program, I commonly tested the functioning of my various obligatory lamps, including the brake lights. Reflected images, of the illuminated, rear-mounted lights, were clearly visible in the glass doors of the Urban District Council Offices opposite my driveway, so I could quickly and easily check all of these on a daily basis.

One should note that the original factory-fitted brake-light switch, is a manifestation of a momentary switch, rather than a latched switch. Even if I do not retro-fit a separate supplementary, finger-operated brake-light switch, I can still activate the brake lights using the brake pedal, without activating the hydraulic brakes. I fail to comprehend the fundamental difference between activating brake lights using a foot-operated switch or finger-operated switch, if in both cases the brakes are not being applied!?!

On too many occasions, when approaching roundabouts or other junctions with GIVE WAY lines, I have needed to slow down but not stop, which did not require any use of my brakes, but did require a warning to the drivers behind, who were following far too close and/or not paying proper attention. I needed to draw their attention to the fact that I was slowing down, either by use of the appropriate hand signal (which few drivers seem to comprehend and which is no longer included in the driving test!) or by activating the brake lights.

If one uses cadence braking on a slippery surface, which is a legitimate driving technique, then the brake lights will flash on and off, that some following drivers might find distracting, but would the use of a hand-operated momentary switch, to flash the brake lights on and off, be any more or less distracting!?! It might however, wake up the dozy driver behind, who is half asleep or is too busy with the illegal task of using their mobile telephone, laptop or tablet computer.
Quote:

Tailgaters are a menace and the idea of being able to warn them of their impending folly is a good one. But there is a fine line between touching the brake pedal to scare them off and installing a manual switch with deliberate "intent to decieve" Prosecutions probably proceeded under a catch all offence of "dangerous condition" or something similar.




I recall reading about one motorist who was stopped by police for another reason, during which they also discovered his empty windscreen-washer reservoir, for which he was subsequently fined.
That REALLY is Plod being petty, probably because he failed to get a nick for the original stop reason!


Quote:
On the brake pressure warning light, the very late Dolomites with dual circuit brakes have a pressure differential warning sensor with an earthed switch which illuminates - wait for it - the handbrake warning light! Which was suitably relabelled "brake" rather than the earlier "hand brake".
The pressure-differential warning sensors that I salvaged from two late-model Triumph Dolomites, both seemed to have two electrical connections, so I presumed there was no Earth through the housing. This is something I shall check. Both cars also featured a separate, rectangular red-lensed “brake” warning-light unit, of the same configuration as the “fasten belt” warning-light unit. There was a separate “brake” warning light (rather than “park brake” warning light) in the Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster.

Looking at the electrical-circuit wiring diagram (marked MTO195/2) & associated key, for LHD Dolomite models, on Pages 86.00.06 & 86.00.07 of the BLMC Triumph, of the official loose-leaf, 2nd edition (© 1973) Dolomite Repair Operation Manual (Publication Part Number 545206) that I borrowed from Essex Libraries, it appears that some LHD vehicles had the option of a “tandem brake circuit”, with Item 73 – “brake line failure switch” and Item 72 – “brake line failure warning light”.

To say the least, the associated electrical circuit, including the oil-pressure warning light and oil-pressure switch, appears decidedly weird, although it might be intended as a means of testing the “brake line failure warning light” when the ignition is first switched on! In effect, the oil-pressure warning light & switch are connected in series with the “brake line failure warning light”; the oil-pressure circuit being short-circuited when the “brake line failure switch” closes.

It’s possible that the late-model RHD Dolomite might have a different circuit, but I have yet to find an electrical-circuit wiring diagram for one of these.
If the cars you salvaged the PDWAs from had been more complete, you would have seen that, though the SWITCH on the PDWA has 2 tags, there is only 1 wire and the second tag is unused. The unit does indeed act as a ground for the circuit. I have a LHD wiring diagram for Sprint but i've never consulted it closely (why would I?) so i've not noticed the hybrid oil light/BPWL circuit. It's not used on RHD cars of any vintage. But it's possible that this is the purpose of the 2nd tag on the PDWA switch, since you can invert the single wire plug of the RHD car and it will use the alternate tag and still work. The separate warning light is only used on those late, dual circuit braked, flat dash cars that didn't have the 6WL cluster.

Quote:
Fluid level sensors in the reservoir caps that are common on moderns always have 2 terminals and it really doesn't matter whether you feed one side and earth the bulb, or earth one side and feed the bulb, it's only a simple switch!
It still remains to find suitable modern-car donors, of two fluid-reservoir screw-caps, with fluid-level switches, of the appropriate thread size for my Dolomite & Toledo brake-fluid & clutch-fluid reservoirs!

The only modern cars with which I have had any acquaintance, were a 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4 (with optional ABS & air conditioning) and a 2004 SEAT Leon Cupra 20VT. The former I did quite a bit of work on over a 20 year period, but on the latter, I did only basic weekly maintenance checks until my father died in 2011, after which we disposed of this money pit.

I am well acquainted with “simple switches” and how to design, analyse and build simple DC and AC electrical circuits. In bygone years, I also had practical experience of 3-phase AC electrical equipment.
Ok, I shouldn't teach grandma to suck eggs! I've not found suitable caps with float switches either, though I have made only desultory searches at scrapyards. I don't think I would personally use one on the clutch master anyway, not because I don't want the information, but because the float would occupy so much of the clutch master cylinder's already tiny capacity!

Quote:
Finally, onto the business of reading instruments. Am I the only one who does this then? As a young man, i learned to fly light aircraft and it was impressed on me from the start that you check your instruments frequently till it becomes habitual.
Being a mildly myopic spectacle wearer, I wasn’t able to gain entry into the University of London Air Squadron during the mid-to-late-1970s. During the early-to-mid-1980s, I could have taken flying lessons at Cranfield Institute of Technology (home of the College of Aeronautics), where I was a student in the School of Mechanical Engineering (formerly the Department of Propulsion), but even with a student discount, flying lessons were about £22 per hour, which was well beyond my means!

However, I did have some involvement with the technical aspects of aircraft and later tutored some aspiring commercial pilots in the physics & mathematics of flight and flying.

Just flying an aircraft in controlled airspace, requires regular repetitive attention to various instruments (e.g. airspeed indicator, artificial horizon, altimeter, rate of climb indicator, compass, propeller-pitch indicator and trim), in addition to monitoring the engines’ performance and operating condition indicators (e.g. fuel reserves, throttle position, engine-rpm, oil pressure, oil temperature, cylinder-head temperatures – each cylinder, exhaust-gas temperatures – each cylinder, carburettor & inlet-manifold temperature and fuel-air mixture).

If an aircraft system is in danger of failing, one needs to become aware of it before the situation becomes critical; particularly if it concerns the engine, its ancillaries or the control surfaces. Unlike a terrestrial vehicle one cannot simply coast to a halt at the side of the road when something goes wrong.

Carburettor icing is a well-known hazard on light aircraft, which can develop rapidly, leading to loss of power and engine stalling (in addition to aerodynamic stalling), as I similarly discovered with the VW Type 2’s air-cooled engine under certain weather & atmospheric conditions. If the engine dies, for one reason or another, one might have little time available to select a suitable emergency landing strip (e.g. Hudson River), especially if flying at low altitude, because most powered aircraft have a relatively poor glide ratio.

Although most aircraft (possibly excluding the Edgeley Optica and the Scottish Aviation Twin Pioneer) travel much faster than cars, the three-dimensional sky is rather less crowded than the roads and require fewer and less frequent changes of direction and speed; allowing one a greater proportion of time to check instrument readings.
Quote:

I too am short sighted and spectacles at the age of 14 ruined my ambition to fly fighters for the RAF! But I maintained an interest in flight and managed to scrape up enough funds to finance 3 years flying, which ended when I got married and a mortgage!

Steve

I've made a complete hash of spacing my remarks correctly, apologies for that, i'm something of a Philistine where computers are concerned!

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Canvey Island, Essex
Quote:
Lots of information but a quick sweep every few seconds ("are all the needles in the right place?") will tell you whether you are OK or need to worry about something. This is where some manufacturers will turn gauges round so that the "normal" readings are all straight up and down, all very simple ready for the quick sweeping glance every few seconds.
Quote:
It would be considered normal practice, in the nuclear and chemical process industries, to orientate analogue gauges, so that for normal readings, the pointers all point in the same direction, which makes both positive and negative deviations from the norm, quicker and easier to detect with a brief glance.
Nearly 25 years ago, during the early-1990s, when I was updating my knowledge, by taking some distance-learning courses with the OU – Open University, I included the ½-Credit, Technology Faculty, Level 2 course “T292 Instrumentation”. Previously, in my experimental & testing work, I had used a variety of analogue and digital measuring instruments for various physical quantities, but had not delved deeply into the fundamental scientific, technological, mathematical and cognitive theory of instrumentation.

In Block 6, Part 2, dealing with displays, it discusses the eyes’ sensitivity to different light intensities and frequencies as well as the design, size and orientation of displays; citing recommendations from British Standards BS89 and BS3693 in the discussion.

http://www.standardscentre.co.uk/bs/BS-89-9-1990/

http://www.standardscentre.co.uk/bs/bs- ... =BS%203693

In Section 2 – Analogue Panel Meters, Figure 10a on Page 64, shows six circular analogue displays, in three adjacent vertical blocks of two (not unlike a car’s instrument panel) with the scales arranged symmetrically and pointers aligned in various directions for a “normal” reading, whilst Figure 10b shows the same displays re-orientated with all the pointers aligned in the 12 o’clock direction for a “normal” reading, which would make any deviation from “normal” easy to spot in an instant.
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Naskeet, I won't argue with your thoughts on colour perception - fascinating to look at what the eye responds to and how.
The aforementioned OU publication mentions that the “average” human eye is approximately 100 times more sensitive to yellow-green light of 550 nm wavelength than it is to violet light of 425 nm wavelength and about 20 times more sensitive to yellow-green light than to red light of 670 nm wavelength. Thus a red or violet light source must emit considerably more radiant energy than a yellow-green source to appear equally bright.

The human eyes’ sensitivity to different light frequencies (i.e. colour), is also dependent upon light intensity and hence whether they are perceiving incident light using one’s high-intensity colour vision (three types of cones in the retina) or low-intensity monochrome (i.e. black, white and shades of grey) night vision (rods in the retina).

Of particular interest, is the fact that both one’s high-intensity colour vision and low-intensity monochrome night vision, are most sensitive to yellow-green light of about 555 nm wavelength. This might also explain why my predominantly yellow Triumph Toledo is so easy to see at a distance, during both day and night-time conditions, as well as being easy to spot in a car park; a colour I selected in April 1975 for both aesthetic and safety reasons.

Monochrome night vision is insensitive to red light, which is why red surfaces, reflecting low-intensity red light, appears black! This is also true of monochrome photographic film and television cameras.

It’s also the reason that red torches and lamps, are or were used by cinema usherettes, astronomers, soldiers, airmen and mariners and under low-light conditions, because the relatively high intensity red light, perceived by one’s colour vision, does not adversely affect the monochrome night vision of the dark-adapted eyes. Hence, it might be better to use red bulbs for instrument illumination and interior courtesy lights and map lights.

Block 7, Parts 1 & 2 deal with instrumentation in a process industry and civil aircraft respectively.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:59 am 
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This perception of light colours is new to me, (every day a school day!) but the information it reveals is strangely at odds with most manufacturers choices of colours for warning lights which are 1) Red for critical (mal)functions, 2) Amber for less critical but still important functions and 3) Green, Blue, Purple etc for "information only" type functions. And no attempt is ever made to alter the intensity of red light in warning lights by fitting higher wattage bulbs, all warning light bulbs are typically 3-5w.
Sidetracking slightly, historically, (and in the UK) oil lights used to be green as on "our" cars, went through a stage of being mostly amber in the 80s and finally settled on red in the 90s where it has stayed ever since. There are exceptions of course, Morris Minors had amber oil lights almost throughout the model's long production run, for example!

I've personally never been tempted to twist the guages round so all the needles point up or whatever. My water temp and voltmeter do this naturally but my oil pressure guage normally sits at the far end of the scale and the tachometer, speedometer and fuel guage obviously use the full range of movement, so a median reading is not possible to determine. Since it isn't possible to realign the clocks on the Carledo's binnacle, the point is a bit moot anyway!

I've driven cars with all kinds of different colours of instrument illumination. even a couple where it could be altered at will by the driver! I have to say, I don't much like red dash lights, or bright blue for that matter! A nice restful green is my choice.

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:28 pm 
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A break-on-fall switch and light indicating excessive pressure is probably more relevant to the aircraft industry where as you so rightly mention lower temperatures can cause problems unlikely in a car - at least here in the UK!
I agree that unless we have a spell of uncharacteristically cold weather in the United Kingdom, high-viscosity engine oil is unlikely to cause problems with excessive oil pressure. However, I have read about instances where oil filters ruptured and oil-gallery plugs popped out, in some of the colder climes, where owners had omitted to change to a lower viscosity oil, such as SAE 0W/30.
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On the hillclimb car, "in one's main zone of vision" means in the centre of the windscreen :-) and I haven't come up with a functioning head-up display yet!
I don’t know whether you would consider your ceiling-mounted interior rear-view mirror to be within “one's main zone of vision", but it might be possible to incorporate a flashing warning light into that. Even if it were not, I imagine the rear-view mirror would be glanced at regularly, a few times per minute!?!

Here’s an after-market HUD – head up display with 5½ inch LCD display which might interest you, but note that it is not compatible with European / American cars manufactured before 2003 or Asian cars manufactured before 2007.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/SITAILE ... 1b014dee99

Quote:
Another really good example of the technique of orienting the gauges so that "normal" readings all read the same, is the nut position indicators on lorry wheels - all those fluorescent tabs that fit onto the wheels with an arrow pointing around the circumference. Again, instantly obvious if something has moved.
I too have seen these, which are a good idea in principle. However, past experience of irresponsible pranksters, would make me wary of relying upon these, because some “enterprising” prankster might simply reposition the fluorescent arrow markers or even loosen the wheel-nuts and reposition the fluorescent arrow markers. These souls would probably come from the same school of thought, as those who maliciously let air out of tyres and/or change the settings on tyre-valve pressure indicators.

Several decades ago, during the early-1960s, the nearside rear wheel came off my father’s Morris 8 Series E, whilst we were on one of our longer journeys. My father, a mature medical-student in his early-to-mid-30s, was of the opinion that one or more of the younger students, probably thought it would be “funny”, to slightly loosen off the wheel nuts and put the hub-cap back on!
Quote:
I've not found suitable caps with float switches either, though I have made only desultory searches at scrapyards. I don't think I would personally use one on the clutch master anyway, not because I don't want the information, but because the float would occupy so much of the clutch master cylinder's already tiny capacity!
As you say, the fluid capacity of the clutch-fluid reservoir is not particularly large and might be significantly reduced by the use of a float switch, especially if the float is long and of large diameter. Float switches are not the only way of sensing fluid levels, but they would probably be relatively cheap to manufacture as well as being technologically simple.

Other types of fluid-level transducer, could be based upon sensing hydrostatic pressure in excess of ambient atmospheric pressure or changes in electrical conductance or capacitance, dependent upon whether the fluid was a polar or non-polar solvent.
Quote:
In Britain, the spotlight as a reverse light has been illegal since before rallied up MkI Escorts were the height of cool, something to do with not showing a white light to the rear and dazzling other road users when accidentally leaving it on. Swedish legislators obviously have more open minds (and many more unlit roads).
My Lucas Square-8 lamps are mounted beneath the rear bumper and aligned to give a horizontal beam with sharp vertical cut-off, so someone would have to be crawling on all fours, to experience dazzle from these lamps.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:10 pm 
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If the cars you salvaged the PDWAs from had been more complete, you would have seen that, though the SWITCH on the PDWA has 2 tags, there is only 1 wire and the second tag is unused. The unit does indeed act as a ground for the circuit.

I have a LHD wiring diagram for Sprint but i've never consulted it closely (why would I?) so i've not noticed the hybrid oil light/BPWL circuit. It's not used on RHD cars of any vintage. But it's possible that this is the purpose of the 2nd tag on the PDWA switch, since you can invert the single wire plug of the RHD car and it will use the alternate tag and still work.

The separate warning light is only used on those late, dual circuit braked, flat dash cars that didn't have the 6WL cluster.
The plot thickens!

One of the vehicles from which I salvaged a complete dashboard (NOT a flat dashboard) & instrument panel, brake servo, dual-circuit brake master cylinder PDWA, was a 1979/80 Triumph 1500HL (I think I have note of the Commission Number somewhere), which included a 60 mm Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light cluster with lower-segment labelled BRAKE and a separate single rectangular warning-light unit labelled BRAKE, immediately below the similar separate single rectangular warning-light unit labelled FASTEN BELTS.

I commonly examine electrical-circuit wiring diagrams and workshop manuals which are not directly relevant to my vehicles, because it sometimes gives me insight into potentially desirable factory-fitted options, which were not available for the British market. This is how I discovered “side-marker lights” and various supplementary warning lights, fitted to the North American specification, 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
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Quote:
Quote:
If the cars you salvaged the PDWAs from had been more complete, you would have seen that, though the SWITCH on the PDWA has 2 tags, there is only 1 wire and the second tag is unused. The unit does indeed act as a ground for the circuit.

I have a LHD wiring diagram for Sprint but i've never consulted it closely (why would I?) so i've not noticed the hybrid oil light/BPWL circuit. It's not used on RHD cars of any vintage. But it's possible that this is the purpose of the 2nd tag on the PDWA switch, since you can invert the single wire plug of the RHD car and it will use the alternate tag and still work.

The separate warning light is only used on those late, dual circuit braked, flat dash cars that didn't have the 6WL cluster.
The plot thickens!

One of the vehicles from which I salvaged a complete dashboard (NOT a flat dashboard) & instrument panel, brake servo, dual-circuit brake master cylinder PDWA, was a 1979/80 Triumph 1500HL (I think I have note of the Commission Number somewhere), which included a 60 mm Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light cluster with lower-segment labelled BRAKE and a separate single rectangular warning-light unit labelled BRAKE, immediately below the similar separate single rectangular warning-light unit labelled FASTEN BELTS.

I commonly examine electrical-circuit wiring diagrams and workshop manuals which are not directly relevant to my vehicles, because it sometimes gives me insight into potentially desirable factory-fitted options, which were not available for the British market. This is how I discovered “side-marker lights” and various supplementary warning lights, fitted to the North American specification, 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s.
I've just broken a 79/80 W reg 1500HL Auto. This car doesn't have a comm number but a VIN! (I'll check what it is tomorrow) Dual circuit brakes, check, PDWA, check, reversible, single wire plug, check, 6wl, lower segment labelled BRAKE, check. Separate single oblong BRAKE warning light, NO! Even on flat dash cars, the single oblong lamp is not adjacent to the seat belt warning light but balancing it on the opposite side of the instruments. I can only hazard a guess that someone had added the second light on the car you salvaged from aftermarket, i've certainly never seen one fitted like that!

On other matters, whilst I am not as keen as you are on dashboard warning lights, I fully intend to extend the range of external warning lights to the Dolomega by adding a pair of rear foglights, a high level additional brake light and side indicator repeaters ( I rather suspect I am preaching to the choir here!) as well as front fog and long range driving lights. Being a Dolomite, rather than a Toledo, it already has 2 decent sized reverse lights, the addition of LED bulbs should suffice here!
The only thing I can't decide is where to site the side indicator repeaters, basically, I have 3 choices, 1) the traditional, directly above the front wheel arch, 2) incorporated in the door mirrors somehow, as is popular on moderns these days, or 3) embedded vertically in the stainless B/C pillar moulding, in the manner used on the Triumph 2000. Each of these choices has it's merits, hence my indecision! I WILL have to use an electronic flasher unit, as the stock one can barely cope with 2 bulbs!
For my comfort and convenience, I am also adding central locking and front electric windows. I'd love to make the front quarter lights work off a rotating knob inside the door like the Stag has, but it might be a bridge too far! Also on the "maybe" list are "gutter illumination" lights in the bottom of the doors , triggered by the door post switches and red lights in the rear of the doors that come on in the same fashion, but maybe with a "lights on" override. However i'm conscious of the difficulty of getting all the necessary wire into the doors for all this extra circuitry!

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If the cars you salvaged the PDWAs from had been more complete, you would have seen that, though the SWITCH on the PDWA has 2 tags, there is only 1 wire and the second tag is unused. The unit does indeed act as a ground for the circuit.

I have a LHD wiring diagram for Sprint but i've never consulted it closely (why would I?) so i've not noticed the hybrid oil light/BPWL circuit. It's not used on RHD cars of any vintage. But it's possible that this is the purpose of the 2nd tag on the PDWA switch, since you can invert the single wire plug of the RHD car and it will use the alternate tag and still work.

The separate warning light is only used on those late, dual circuit braked, flat dash cars that didn't have the 6WL cluster.
The plot thickens!

One of the vehicles from which I salvaged a complete dashboard (NOT a flat dashboard) & instrument panel, brake servo, dual-circuit brake master cylinder PDWA, was a 1979/80 Triumph 1500HL (I think I have note of the Commission Number somewhere), which included a 60 mm Lucas 6WL, 8-segment warning-light cluster with lower-segment labelled BRAKE and a separate single rectangular warning-light unit labelled BRAKE, immediately below the similar separate single rectangular warning-light unit labelled FASTEN BELTS.

I commonly examine electrical-circuit wiring diagrams and workshop manuals which are not directly relevant to my vehicles, because it sometimes gives me insight into potentially desirable factory-fitted options, which were not available for the British market. This is how I discovered “side-marker lights” and various supplementary warning lights, fitted to the North American specification, 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s.
I've just broken a 79/80 W reg 1500HL Auto. This car doesn't have a comm number but a VIN! (I'll check what it is tomorrow) Dual circuit brakes, check, PDWA, check, reversible, single wire plug, check, 6wl, lower segment labelled BRAKE, check. Separate single oblong BRAKE warning light, NO! Even on flat dash cars, the single oblong lamp is not adjacent to the seat belt warning light but balancing it on the opposite side of the instruments. I can only hazard a guess that someone had added the second light on the car you salvaged from aftermarket, i've certainly never seen one fitted like that!

On other matters, whilst I am not as keen as you are on dashboard warning lights, I fully intend to extend the range of external warning lights to the Dolomega by adding a pair of rear foglights, a high level additional brake light and side indicator repeaters ( I rather suspect I am preaching to the choir here!) as well as front fog and long range driving lights. Being a Dolomite, rather than a Toledo, it already has 2 decent sized reverse lights, the addition of LED bulbs should suffice here!
The only thing I can't decide is where to site the side indicator repeaters, basically, I have 3 choices, 1) the traditional, directly above the front wheel arch, 2) incorporated in the door mirrors somehow, as is popular on moderns these days, or 3) embedded vertically in the stainless B/C pillar moulding, in the manner used on the Triumph 2000. Each of these choices has it's merits, hence my indecision! I WILL have to use an electronic flasher unit, as the stock one can barely cope with 2 bulbs!
For my comfort and convenience, I am also adding central locking and front electric windows. I'd love to make the front quarter lights work off a rotating knob inside the door like the Stag has, but it might be a bridge too far! Also on the "maybe" list are "gutter illumination" lights in the bottom of the doors , triggered by the door post switches and red lights in the rear of the doors that come on in the same fashion, but maybe with a "lights on" override. However i'm conscious of the difficulty of getting all the necessary wire into the doors for all this extra circuitry!

Steve
Steve

i have fitted a third brake light,i used one from an Astra fitted it in place of the middle air vent by the rear window,i just ordered side wing indicator lights focus, thinking of fitting them at the back of the wing,what electric window fittings are you going to use ?

Dave


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:14 pm 
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I've just broken a 79/80 W reg 1500HL Auto. This car doesn't have a comm number but a VIN! (I'll check what it is tomorrow) Dual circuit brakes, check, PDWA, check, reversible, single wire plug, check, 6wl, lower segment labelled BRAKE, check. Separate single oblong BRAKE warning light, NO!

Even on flat dash cars, the single oblong lamp is not adjacent to the seat belt warning light but balancing it on the opposite side of the instruments. I can only hazard a guess that someone had added the second light on the car you salvaged from aftermarket, i've certainly never seen one fitted like that!
I cannot argue with your experience, of close-quarter examination of various Triumph Dolomites, over the past 40 years or so; I have only my own limited observations and experiences to go by.

Before it was carted away before my eyes by a vehicle dismantler, one of the things I wondered about, when I hurriedly salvaged various parts from the 1979/80 Triumph Dolomite 1500HL at the local fire station opposite my home, was the potential advantages and disadvantages of substituting the 1500HL’s twin-carburettors (which I had to leave behind!) onto my Toledo 1300 engine!?!

One of my concerns was whether the 1500HL carburettors’ venturis might be too large for the smaller displacement 1300 engine and even if that were not so, whether I could find appropriate fuel-jet needles for the smaller displacement.
Quote:
On other matters, whilst I am not as keen as you are on dashboard warning lights, I fully intend to extend the range of external warning lights to the Dolomega by adding a pair of rear fog lights, a high level additional brake light and side indicator repeaters (I rather suspect I am preaching to the choir here!) as well as front fog and long range driving lights. Being a Dolomite, rather than a Toledo, it already has 2 decent sized reverse lights, the addition of LED bulbs should suffice here!
I think I would also add front & rear side-marker lights cum reflectors to the list, which have been obligatory in North America since circa 1972; the rear ones on their own having been introduced some time earlier. They are certainly obligatory here on modern commercial vehicles of greater than a certain length, so it makes equal sense to also have them on cars, which are equally vulnerable at night, when emerging from a driveway, car park or road junction.

During the late-1970s, I retro-fitted North American specification rear side-marker lights cum reflectors & front side-marker reflectors to our 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 campervan and will be upgrading it with front side-marker lights cum reflectors before I put it back on the road. I am still contemplating how best to implement this upgrade on the Toledo.

I would certainly regard both front & rear fog lamps as an essential safety feature and a supplementary high-level brake light as desirable. I implemented the former on my Toledo during the early-1980s and the latter is on my list of things to do, before I eventually put the Toledo back on the road.

Several years ago, I read a technical report published by Hewlett Packard (Yes, I too was surprised by the source, which are better known for computers and calculators!) regarding the safety benefits of high-level brake lights and the statistical evidence to support this.

The report also mentioned the shorter time delay associated with illumination to full intensity of LED bulbs versus incandescent-filament bulbs, which I think was as much as 200 milliseconds.

Considering that 10 mph is approximately 4•44… metres per second (recalling that 10 metres per second equals 36 km/h), a vehicle travelling at 50 mph would travel approximately 22•22… metres in just 1 second, so a 200 millisecond reduction in illumination delay time, could mean the difference between a rear-end collision or not!

Whether one needs long-range driving lamps (aka auxiliary driving lamps) would depend upon how effective the existing or replacement headlamps might be. I have long considered that some driving lamps with a range intermediate between main-beam and dipped beam would also be desirable.

I have wondered about substituting onto my Toledo, a set of four second-generation, Bosch or Hella, 5¾ inch ellipsoidal headlamps (of the type that were factory-fitted to 1980s vintage BMWs), whose mode of operation is said to retain the dipped-beams from the outboard lamps and overlay them with the main-beams from the inboard lamps. By inter-connecting the Triumph headlamp dip-switch’s output connections (blue/ red and blue/white cables) and incorporating a blocking diode, one could convert the Triumph to this mode of operation. These lamps could also be equipped with modern higher-intensity, enhanced quartz-halogen bulbs, of nominally the same electrical power consumption.
Quote:
The only thing I can't decide is where to site the side indicator repeaters, basically, I have 3 choices, 1) the traditional, directly above the front wheel arch, 2) incorporated in the door mirrors somehow, as is popular on moderns these days, or 3) embedded vertically in the stainless B/C pillar moulding, in the manner used on the Triumph 2000. Each of these choices has its merits, hence my indecision! I WILL have to use an electronic flasher unit, as the stock one can barely cope with 2 bulbs!
1) I have seen cars of various marques with direction-indicator side-repeater lamps above the front wheel-arches, but I’ve always thought this unsightly and the rear of the lamp unit would be regularly bombarded by dirt and water thrown up by the tyres.

2) Incorporating direction-indicator side-repeater lamps into the factory-fitted, door-mounted rear-view mirrors would be a challenge, not only with regard to routing the wiring, but also incorporating the light unit into the mirror head in such a way that it didn’t resemble a carbuncle!

3) I could never comprehend why a stainless-steel trim moulding was added to the B-pillar between the front & rear doors; adding nothing to the appearance and creating yet another rust trap.

Of the three options you have suggested, this site for direction-indicator side-repeater lamps is probably the least obtrusive and most aesthetically pleasing. It also has the advantage that the backs of the lamp units would be protected from water and dirt, but having never removed the roof lining of a Triumph Toledo or Dolomite, I don’t know how readily one could feed electrical cable down the inside of the B-pillar or how well the cable could be protected from chafing where it enters the B-pillar.

It is on the upper part of the B-pillars, behind the front cab doors, that I shall be retro-fitting to the 1973 VW “1600” Type 2 campervan, some Hella direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, of the same pattern that were a factory-fitted option on the later model-years of 1972~79 VW Type 2. My long-standing Swedish university-friend obtained them for me from his local motor factors in Södertälje.

This is a picture copied from a 1982 vintage, Swedish car accessories catalogue, which shows Hella turn-signal, side-repeater lamps, which are of the same pattern, as those illustrated as Item 5 (including items 6~8), on Page & Frame 100, of the official 1968~79 VW Type 2 Replacement Parts Catalogue & Microfiche.

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Microfiche/t210000.gif

Image

There is a 4th option you haven’t considered, which is to the locate direction-indicator side-repeater lamps close to where the rectangular British Leyland badges were fitted, close to the leading edges of the front doors and above the lower swage line. This has the merits of being behind the removable section of the front wing where it will be protected from dirt and water thrown up by the tyres as well as being easily accessible for the wiring connections.

When I originally repainted (with a brush) my Toledo in 1991, I removed the self-adhesive rectangular British Leyland badges and never replaced them. Removal had broken the plastic badge housing, which by then was quite brittle and I could see no purpose in spending money on superfluous badges. If and when I get around to retro-fitting direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, they will probably in the positions previously occupied by the badges, which is similar to the locations on my father’s Ford Sierra XR4x4.

Wherever one positions direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, they need to be clearly visible to all road users (e.g. drivers of cars, vans, buses & lorries, plus pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists and horseback riders) and be the least susceptible as practical, to mechanical damage incurred from opening doors and close-proximity passing pedestrians. Keeping in mind the possibility of damage, it would be wise to choose lamp units which can be readily repaired or replaced.

I have also wondered about the factory-standard, 2-terminal direction-indicator flasher and 2-terminal hazard-warning flasher. If one were to use LED bulbs in the direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, the additional current load would probably be minimal.

I am considering updating the system with a single 4-terminal flasher, which combines the functions of both the direction-indicator and hazard-warning light relays as well as providing a connection for a warning-light repeater for a trailer’s direction indicator, without the need to retro-fit a “Transflash” unit, which are possibly now unobtainable or expensive.

Flasher relay labelled RFL 3, is a commonly used type. Flasher relay labelled RFL 6, is identical in function to RFL 3, but has the additional facility, for trailer's turn-signal warning light

Image

This six-position, relay mounting cum connector block (dimensions 110 mm x 75 mm x 25 mm), made by Rists (a division of Lucas Industries), is one of several, I salvaged from various Austin Montego & Rover Montego cars. They were also fitted to the earlier Austin Princess.

Image

Image

A similar item, of identical dimensions, was also fitted to late-model Austin Metro cars.

I have used two such items, suspended unobtrusively, beneath the steering-column support bracket, of my British specification, 1973 VW Type 2, to make provision for, an additional twelve accessory relays.


Image
Quote:
For my comfort and convenience, I am also adding central locking and front electric windows. I'd love to make the front quarter lights work off a rotating knob inside the door like the Stag has, but it might be a bridge too far!

Also on the "maybe" list are "gutter illumination" lights in the bottom of the doors , triggered by the door post switches and red lights in the rear of the doors that come on in the same fashion, but maybe with a "lights on" override. However i'm conscious of the difficulty of getting all the necessary wire into the doors for all this extra circuitry!
For reasons of simplicity & reliability, I prefer to retain manually-operated door-locks and window winders.

The only occasions when an electrically operated front-passenger-door window might be useful, is if I need to stop and ask a passer-by for directions. I’ve never used the quarter-light windows, which tend to provide rather blustery air flow and risks splitting the rubber window-seals.

One thing I would like to do, if I can find a practical way to do it, is to retro-fit key-operated deadlocks to all four doors and something similar to the boot lid; the Triumph Toledos & Dolomites being all too easy to break into, using the once popular “slim-jim” or even a piece of bent, stiff baling wire, having once used the latter during the late-1980s, when I foolishly locked the keys in the car, by depressing the interior door button, whilst holding in the exterior lock button and closing the door.

I have not come across “gutter illumination” in the bottoms of doors, which might have its merits in some circumstances, such as avoidance of placing ones feet in puddles or onto squishy mud or other undesirable surfaces, when it’s pitch black.

I am contemplating the retro-fitment of red lights in the interior rear portions of the doors, having salvaged a nice set of four matching lights of this type, from a mid-1980s vintage Honda Accord 1800 Executive saloon, during the early-1990s. This should be relatively simple to implement on the front doors, but whether there would be sufficient clearance between the backs of the lamp units and the wind-down window-glass of the rear doors, I have yet to investigate. One could also affix some red and/or amber reflective tape to the interior trailing edges of the doors.

As with B-pillar mounted direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, there is the question of how readily one could route the necessary wiring into the B-pillars. Provided one created a reasonably long vertical dog-leg between the holes in the A-pillars or B-pillars and the leading edges of the doors, there should be relatively little flexing of the wiring when the doors are opened & closed, and hence little risk of long-term fatigue-failure of the wire filaments.

The challenge might be to source some suitable sleeved, angled cable grommets and compatible cable-sleeve, to incorporate into the installation. One could also use these grommets & sleeve, to route cables for door-mounted audio speakers. An alternative might be to use spring-loaded contacts, similar to those used on the rear hatch of the Vauxhall Astra Mk.1 estate car.

There should be little if any difficulty in principle, in co-ordinating the operation of the red lights and “gutter illumination” with the activation of the doors’ courtesy light pin-switches and the side lights, which could be achieved using a simple electro-mechanical changeover relay or semiconductor logic gates. If one wanted the lights for each of the doors to operate independently, whilst retaining normal interior courtesy-light function, I would need to give this some more thought. The simplest way, would probably be to duplicate the doors’ pin switches.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
Posts: 149
Location: Canvey Island, Essex
Quote:
I have been having a conversation recently with Ian (uphill racer) on this very topic, brought on by Jeroen posting a pic of his rally Dolomite dash in the competition interiors thread in the motorsport section of this forum. Our conclusion was that though it looks brilliant at first glance with switches and dials EVERYWHERE, it would be a nightmare to actually USE, in the sense that you are driving at night and a warning light comes on, now is that the choke light, or the oil pressure light, or the front foglights?
Was this the post by Jeroen (aka “soe8m” on the forum) to which you referred, in the competition interiors thread, in the motorsport section?

The Triumph Dolomite Club » Triumph Dolomite Club Motorsport Register » Motorsport Interiors- Any Pics

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32121&p=298318&hili ... cs#p298318

The all-black LHD – left-hand drive dashboard, does appear somewhat disorganised from the perspective of a single user, but I suspect the intention was for the LHD driver on the left to use the left-hand controls & instruments and the co-driver (i.e. passenger) cum navigator to use the right-hand controls & instruments, akin to a pilot and navigator cum flight-engineer in an aircraft.

However, I am not keen on the location of the two sets of three paddle switches, mounted beneath the dashboard, on either side of the steering column. I much prefer my arrangement of having paddle switches incorporated into the steering-column’s plastic nacelle, where they are closer to hand and easier to find in the dark.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
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Quote:
Since you already have the curved dash, there is not much spare space available for auxiliary instruments. A dashtop binnacle is at least a period fitment, other than that, a binnacle in the Radio space is ok, but means re-siting the radio (or going without), an A-post binnacle is too 90s and a roof console, though such things WERE available in the 70s, would have to be bespoke now and done in dash-matching wood for that "original" look.
Quote:
I have seen generic A-post instrument pods advertised, plus several for specifically named modern-car models, but I doubt whether any are offered yet, which would be suitable for either a Triumph Toledo-Dolomite or a 1968~79 VW Type 2 van.
Whilst I was recently searching for other gauge-related items on E-bay, I stumbled across some universal two-position & three-position, A-pillar gauge-pods, which were said to be suitable for the left-hand drive, 1965 Triumph 1300, but not the 1970~77 Triumph Toledo. It was my impression that these two Triumph models shared most of the major body-pressings in common, including the front windscreen pillars.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-52mm-Ca ... Sw~CFY6yaI

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/52mm-Black-AB ... Swc-tY6z9z

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Gauge-B ... Sw2gxYwnF2

I have long wondered about A-pillar gauge pods and whether they can be fitted neatly and unobtrusively to the driver’s-side A-pillar; especially the so called universal gauge pods which have not been designed for any specific thickness or rake-angle of A-pillar.

One of my concerns is how they would be held in position, the routing of wiring to the gauges and possible short-circuiting by any retaining screws, of other cables inside the A-pillars, serving the courtesy light and B-pillar mounted, direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, etc.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 4275
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:

Before it was carted away before my eyes by a vehicle dismantler, one of the things I wondered about, when I hurriedly salvaged various parts from the 1979/80 Triumph Dolomite 1500HL at the local fire station opposite my home, was the potential advantages and disadvantages of substituting the 1500HL’s twin-carburettors (which I had to leave behind!) onto my Toledo 1300 engine!?!

One of my concerns was whether the 1500HL carburettors’ venturis might be too large for the smaller displacement 1300 engine and even if that were not so, whether I could find appropriate fuel-jet needles for the smaller displacement.
The twin 1.5" SUs from the 1500 will indeed bolt to the 1300 head, but it's not that simple, you will also need the 1500's twin downpipe exhaust manifold and therefore the twin downpipe too. Then some careful work on a rolling road to get the jetting correct for the smaller engine (it is do-able, but not cheap) It's probably not worth the bother either, unless you intend to fit a bigger valve head and a better camshaft.

[/quote]
During the late-1970s, I retro-fitted North American specification rear side-marker lights cum reflectors & front side-marker reflectors to our 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 campervan and will be upgrading it with front side-marker lights cum reflectors before I put it back on the road. I am still contemplating how best to implement this upgrade on the Toledo.[/quote]

I'm not sure of the legality of side marker lights in the uk, or at least of the US pattern amber variety! Triumph Stags retain the amber front one from the US spec cars, but without a bulb holder fitted, so it's only a reflector. But if you are set on this course, may I suggest the side marker lights from a US spec Triumph TR6, the TR body being a generally similar overall shape to the Toledo they shouldn't clash too much with the styling. With the number of US spec TRs being repatriated these days, it shouldn't be too hard to find a set either.

[/quote]
Whether one needs long-range driving lamps (aka auxiliary driving lamps) would depend upon how effective the existing or replacement headlamps might be. I have long considered that some driving lamps with a range intermediate between main-beam and dipped beam would also be desirable.

I have wondered about substituting onto my Toledo, a set of four second-generation, Bosch or Hella, 5¾ inch ellipsoidal headlamps (of the type that were factory-fitted to 1980s vintage BMWs), whose mode of operation is said to retain the dipped-beams from the outboard lamps and overlay them with the main-beams from the inboard lamps. By inter-connecting the Triumph headlamp dip-switch’s output connections (blue/ red and blue/white cables) and incorporating a blocking diode, one could convert the Triumph to this mode of operation. These lamps could also be equipped with modern higher-intensity, enhanced quartz-halogen bulbs, of nominally the same electrical power consumption.[/quote]

I've considered the BMW headlights myself. And the so called "angel eyes" which have a sidelight which illuminates the periphery of the headlamp unit. A lot of other moderns which have 2 lights in 1 housing operate the same way too. Since i shall be using relays to protect the dipswitch, I COULD use the relays as one way switches to create this operating pattern. However, since I already have a set of bulb type headlamps on the standard pattern and a pair of brand new Lucas "Square 8" long range driving lamps, i'll probably go with these, with the Square 8s set to the medium range as you suggested.

[/quote]
1) I have seen cars of various marques with direction-indicator side-repeater lamps above the front wheel-arches, but I’ve always thought this unsightly and the rear of the lamp unit would be regularly bombarded by dirt and water thrown up by the tyres.[/quote]

Agreed! I have a pair of good 2nd hand front wings with repeaters fitted in this position. The backs of the lamps are thick with muck!

[/quote]
2) Incorporating direction-indicator side-repeater lamps into the factory-fitted, door-mounted rear-view mirrors would be a challenge, not only with regard to routing the wiring, but also incorporating the light unit into the mirror head in such a way that it didn’t resemble a carbuncle![/quote]

I'm not using the standard door mirrors but something a bit sportier. Even so, it would still be difficult to conceal the wiring and make the lights look like they "belonged". So agreed again!

[/quote]
3) I could never comprehend why a stainless-steel trim moulding was added to the B-pillar between the front & rear doors; adding nothing to the appearance and creating yet another rust trap.
Of the three options you have suggested, this site for direction-indicator side-repeater lamps is probably the least obtrusive and most aesthetically pleasing. It also has the advantage that the backs of the lamp units would be protected from water and dirt, but having never removed the roof lining of a Triumph Toledo or Dolomite, I don’t know how readily one could feed electrical cable down the inside of the B-pillar or how well the cable could be protected from chafing where it enters the B-pillar.

There is a 4th option you haven’t considered, which is to the locate direction-indicator side-repeater lamps close to where the rectangular British Leyland badges were fitted, close to the leading edges of the front doors and above the lower swage line. This has the merits of being behind the removable section of the front wing where it will be protected from dirt and water thrown up by the tyres as well as being easily accessible for the wiring connections.

When I originally repainted (with a brush) my Toledo in 1991, I removed the self-adhesive rectangular British Leyland badges and never replaced them. Removal had broken the plastic badge housing, which by then was quite brittle and I could see no purpose in spending money on superfluous badges. If and when I get around to retro-fitting direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, they will probably be in the positions previously occupied by the badges. [/quote]

To be fair, i've removed many of the B pillar mouldings over the years, mainly during respray jobs, and have never found any significant corrosion behind them. The rooflining is not a problem as the B post trim is a separate part, removable after removing the furflex from the door apertures and unbolting the upper and lower seat belt fixings. As the front to rear wiring loom runs along the floor on the N/S of the car, putting a lead up that post would be simple and the O/S one not much more difficult, needing only a lead across the car under the main carpet (stuck down with gaffer tape to stop it moving) There will be other wiring going up the B post on my car too, to feed the central locking on the rear doors (and perhaps gutter lights and rear facing red lights) The hardest part of the job will be cutting the stainless trim and the B pillar neatly enough for it to look "factory". I even have in my odds and sods collection, a couple of approx 1" square amber repeaters, which should fit neatly, refugees I think, from a 90s Fiesta, so replacements should be easily obtainable if needed. These lamps would also suit your chosen site as they are roughly the same size and shape as the badges you deleted (which, incidentally, have NO fixed position!) I think I will be going with the B post fitting, it's more Triumphy!

[/quote]
I have also wondered about the factory-standard, 2-terminal direction-indicator flasher and 2-terminal hazard-warning flasher. If one were to use LED bulbs in the direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, the additional current load would probably be minimal.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that using LED bulbs, with their much lower current draw, will render the stock flasher units with their bimetal strips, inoperable. At the very least, they will have an illegally high flash rate, even with an extra 5w bulb in the system. To make my life and circuitry easier, I shall just be replacing my 2 stock 2 pin flasher units with a pair of similar 2 pin electronic types. I've used these on the Carledo and they work fine, no matter what the load on the car's system, they always flash at the same rate.

[/quote]
I am considering updating the system with a single 4-terminal flasher, which combines the functions of both the direction-indicator and hazard-warning light relays as well as providing a connection for a warning-light repeater for a trailer’s direction indicator, without the need to retro-fit a “Transflash” unit, which are possibly now unobtainable or expensive.

Flasher relay labelled RFL 3, is a commonly used type. Flasher relay labelled RFL 6, is identical in function to RFL 3, but has the additional facility, for trailer's turn-signal warning light

Image

This six-position, relay mounting cum connector block (dimensions 110 mm x 75 mm x 25 mm), made by Rists (a division of Lucas Industries), is one of several, I salvaged from various Austin Montego & Rover Montego cars. They were also fitted to the earlier Austin Princess.

Image

Image

A similar item, of identical dimensions, was also fitted to late-model Austin Metro cars.

I have used two such items, suspended unobtrusively, beneath the steering-column support bracket, of my British specification, 1973 VW Type 2, to make provision for, an additional twelve accessory relays.


Image

I WILL be fitting a towbar to the Dolomega, but I will be using a warning buzzer (I have several) rather than a light for trailer indicator warning to keep it legal. Hopefully, with the buzzer mounted in the well insulated boot, it won't be loud enough to annoy me!
On relay boards, I salvaged an enormous relay box from the donor Omega which also houses the engine ECU and happens to fit neatly into the vacant underbonnet space forward of the n/s suspension turret. Besides the ECU, there is provision for up to 14 relays in it, which should be adequate for my needs!

[/quote]
I have not come across “gutter illumination” in the bottoms of doors, which might have its merits in some circumstances, such as avoidance of placing ones feet in puddles or onto squishy mud or other undesirable surfaces, when it’s pitch black.

I am contemplating the retro-fitment of red lights in the interior rear portions of the doors, having salvaged a nice set of four matching lights of this type, from a mid-1980s vintage Honda Accord 1800 Executive saloon, during the early-1990s. This should be relatively simple to implement on the front doors, but whether there would be sufficient clearance between the backs of the lamp units and the wind-down window-glass of the rear doors, I have yet to investigate. One could also affix some red and/or amber reflective tape to the interior trailing edges of the doors.

As with B-pillar mounted direction-indicator side-repeater lamps, there is the question of how readily one could route the necessary wiring into the B-pillars. Provided one created a reasonably long vertical dog-leg between the holes in the A-pillars or B-pillars and the leading edges of the doors, there should be relatively little flexing of the wiring when the doors are opened & closed, and hence little risk of long-term fatigue-failure of the wire filaments.

The challenge might be to source some suitable sleeved, angled cable grommets and compatible cable-sleeve, to incorporate into the installation. One could also use these grommets & sleeve, to route cables for door-mounted audio speakers. An alternative might be to use spring-loaded contacts, similar to those used on the rear hatch of the Vauxhall Astra Mk.1 estate car.

There should be little if any difficulty in principle, in co-ordinating the operation of the red lights and “gutter illumination” with the activation of the doors’ courtesy light pin-switches and the side lights, which could be achieved using a simple electro-mechanical changeover relay or semiconductor logic gates. If one wanted the lights for each of the doors to operate independently, whilst retaining normal interior courtesy-light function, I would need to give this some more thought. The simplest way, would probably be to duplicate the doors’ pin switches.
[/quote]

I'm sure a bit of scrapyard searching will provide suitable grommet/sleeve material, the ones used on the rear doors of my MkIII Cavaliers, for example, would probably do the job. More thought on the subject of gutter/red lights has brought me to the conclusion that both are only really needed at night so could both be fed by a single, sidelight live into each door (economy of wiring) By using a courtesy light switch mounted in the front face of the door itself, no earth return would need to traverse the door gap (more economy of wiring) The only imponderable in this theory, is whether the door hinges/checkstrap will provide a reliable enough earth route for the door when it's open!
It occurs to me that my front doors will have (even with all these economies) a minimum of 7 wires each going into them (2x radio speaker, 2x electric window actuation, 2x central locking actuation and 1x sidelight feed) My donor Omega had over 20 wires going into each front door, via large plugs on the A posts, but moderns have MUCH thicker doors and posts than Dolomites! I don't think it would be practical to use the Astra estate contact switches, for one thing, they need a flat surface to fit to, but more importantly, they only power the circuits when the doors are closed, this could be very frustrating!

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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