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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:44 pm 
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That's the one! But I have no idea what fits your type 2! I thought they had a built in switch in the cylinder casting for something like that (or possibly a sort of PDWA) But I could be imagining it, it's about 15 years since I got properly acquainted with a type 2 (a bay window 1600 that belongs to a neighbour, it's been in a body shop for at least the last 8 years) Fresh out of my Triumph/Austin apprenticeship, I did 2 years in an independent VW specialist, in those days you couldn't BUY a watercooled VW!

Steve
Some or all of the 1972~79 VW 17/1/2000 Type 2s were equipped with two 3-terminal, hydraulic brake-light switches, which screw into the brake master cylinder. Together they sense any significant difference in hydraulic-pressure between the two circuits, activating a dashboard warning light of two possible types [(1) press-to-test or (2) transistorised which illuminates at start-up in common with the ignition warning light and then extinguishes].

So far as I am aware, none of the British specification, 1968~79 1600 Type 2s had this facility; being equipped with two 2-terminal, hydraulic brake-light switches, which screw into the brake master cylinder. I upgraded my family's 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 in circa 1988/89.

I am not aware of any low-brake-fluid level warning system, that was used on any of the 1968~79 VW Type 2s (VW transporter T2). There is a fluid-reservoir screw-cap with float-switch available for the 1980~92 VW Transporter T3 (aka Type 25 or Vanagon), but sadly it's too large.

Brake-circuit failure, press-to-test warning lamp circuit

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album ... _id=422806

Image

a = black-cable connection to ignition-controlled supply terminal 15.

b = black/red-cable connection to rear brake lights


From 2-terminal to 3-terminal, brake-light switch & warning-light upgrade circuit

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album ... _id=384707

Image

Key to diagram

A = electric switch inside brake-circuit-failure warning-light unit

B = 3-terminal brake-light switch

C = Dual-circuit brake warning lamp

a = blue cable to brake-circuit-failure warning-light unit's
internal switch-terminal 61 (shared with ignition warning light)

b = black cable to fuse-box terminal 15

c = brown cable to Earth (i.e. Ground in USA parlance)

d = black/red cable to brake lights

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Further to the brake fluid level sensor question, I have found one that fits the dual circuit master cylinder, courtesy of a 2002 Saab 9-3 ( the model ran unchanged from 97-03) that I am breaking in my yard! So I didn't have to go far to find one!

Image

Image

The master cylinder that it is shown fitted to is a LHD Sprint one, but it does also fit the RHD dual circuit master on the Carledo, it's just harder to photograph!

Steve
Browsing E-bay listings re 1997~2003 SAAB brake-master-cylinder, fluid-reservoir caps, I came across the following listing, which suggests to me that at least some Vauxhall car models from the same era, might also be suitable donor cars re brake-master-cylinder, fluid-reservoir caps with float-switches; recalling that SAAB was part of General Motors for a while.

Vauxhall Vectra C / Signum / Saab 9-3 - Brake Master Cylinder with Reservoir

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Vect ... Sw-3FZHwqC

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:48 pm 
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In an earlier post I previously wrote:

« One could conceivably use a single warning light for low-hydraulic-brake-fluid-level and low-hydraulic-clutch-fluid-level; both of which would prompt stopping the car at the earliest safe opportunity to visually inspect the fluid levels. First I have to source some suitable reservoir screw-caps, incorporating float switches, for the dual-circuit-brake and clutch hydraulic master cylinders (both Lucas-Girling, with interchangeable screw-caps – circa 44¾ ± ¼ mm diameter & 3½ ± ¼ mm pitch), so any information about possible donor vehicles would be appreciated. »


My brake-fluid-reservoir screw-cap with fluid-level warning-light float-switch and push-on, two-pole electrical connector, originating from a 1997~2003 SAAB 9-3, arrived in the mail on Wednesday, 26th July 2017.

Saab 9-3 93 2.0T 98-03 Brake Fluid Bottle Screw Top Lid and Connector

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Saab-9-3-93-2 ... SwNuxXaFWP

http://s275.photobucket.com/user/naskee ... e.jpg.html

The first thing I noticed, was that it bears the logo of ATE – Alfred Teves GmbH rather than Lucas-Girling, so it’s a little surprising that the ATE screw-cap is compatible with a Lucas-Girling brake-fluid reservoir.

The two 40 mm long sections of insulated wire emerging from the push-on electrical connector-socket are black and brown/white. According to the German DIN Standard, black is the wiring colour for an ignition-controlled positive supply, whilst brown with a tracer-colour, is an intermediate Earth connection of some sort. If I can remove the oval rubber seal from the back of the electrical connector socket, I might be able to remove the captive female electrical connectors, uncrimp the short sections of wire and reuse them with longer lengths of wire having appropriate British Standards colour coding.

ATE hydraulic braking systems are commonly found on German-built cars such as Volkswagen-Audi (maybe also SEAT & Skoda?), Mercedes and BMW, plus possibly Vauxhall-Opel and Ford. I am reasonably sure that my father’s German-built 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4 had an ATE hydraulic braking system with ABS. Whether both SAAB and Volvo use ATE hydraulic braking systems, I don’t know!

According to the following link to Wikipedia, SAAB Automobile became associated with General Motors in 1989, who bought a 50% share in the company; after which the SAAB 9-3 and SAAB 9-5 were produced. In 2000, General Motors exercised its option to buy the remaining 50% of shares, but later sold off the company in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Automobile

It therefore seems likely that many Vauxhall, Opel and SAAB cars developed and/or manufactured during much of 1990~2010, will share many hydraulic braking system components in common, including brake-fluid-reservoir screw-caps with a fluid-level warning-light float-switch

The screw-cap with fluid-level warning-light float-switch, fits the Triumph’s dual-circuit brake-fluid-reservoir perfectly, with a few millimetres clearance at the bottom, but the float-switch’s green plastic shroud, will not fit inside clutch-fluid-reservoir, because it requires a minimum depth of at least 54 mm and the clutch-fluid-reservoir can provide only 50 mm.

There is also a prominent cast-in vertical trapezoidal ridge (used as a visual fluid-depth indicator), inside the aluminium clutch-fluid reservoir, which prevents insertion of the float-switch’s green plastic shroud, to a depth of more than 8 mm.

If I am to use one of these screw-caps with a fluid-level warning-light float-switch for the clutch-fluid reservoir, I shall either need source a different type or modify the float-switch’s green plastic shroud and/or the prominent vertical ridge inside the aluminium clutch-fluid reservoir (I have a spare, so can afford to experiment!).
Quote:
I've not found suitable caps with float switches either, though I have made only desultory searches at scrapyards. I don't think I would personally use one on the clutch master anyway, not because I don't want the information, but because the float would occupy so much of the clutch master cylinder's already tiny capacity!
There were concerns expressed that the volume of the clutch-fluid-reservoir relative to the volume-displacement of the float-switch’s float, might be too small, but I believe the following measurements and analysis will convince you otherwise.

Fluid-reservoir depth (underside of screw-cap seal to bottom of reservoir) = 50 mm

Reservoir volume (including vertical ridge volume) => 35 mm diameter x 42 mm depth (top of vertical ridge to bottom of reservoir) => 40•4 cm³

Vertical trapezoidal aluminium ridge volume => 8 & 5 mm bottom & top length x 42 mm height x 3 mm thickness => 0•8 cm³

The green plastic float-shroud, takes the form of a perforated, open-topped cylinder, with an immersed depth of 42 mm, an external diameter of no more than 32 mm and a wall thickness of slightly less than 1 mm. This corresponds to a displacement volume of less than 5•0 cm³; possibly as little as 4•0 cm³, dependent upon the exact wall thickness.

The float has an external diameter of 26 mm and a height of 9 mm, which corresponds to a displacement volume of 4•8 cm³.

If it were possible to fit the screw-cap with float & complete float-shroud, with all of the vertical trapezoidal ridge still present, this would the reduce the fluid capacity by a maximum of 9•8 cm³, from 39•6 cm³ to 28•8 cm³; corresponding to a reduction of 25%.

If one completely removes the green plastic float-shroud, it is apparent that the float would have sufficient clearance at the bottom of the clutch-fluid reservoir, when the float descends to its lowest level. However, the green plastic float-shroud also serves to hold the cap’s rubber seal in position, so it would be unwise to remove it completely.

If some material were removed from the green plastic float-shroud and/or the vertical trapezoidal ridge, the screw-cap with float & modified float-shroud could be successfully employed, and the resultant reduction in clutch hydraulic-fluid capacity, would be significantly less than 25%. However, I have seen some pictures of ATE screw-caps with a fluid-level warning-light float-switch, which appear to have no provision for a float-shroud, so one of these might be more appropriate, if there is one available with the appropriately sized screw-thread.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxhist=0

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Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:01 pm 
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One of those frameless float caps in the link should do, assuming you can get one of the correct size and thread! I'm not TOO surprised the undoubtedly metric ATE cap fits a Dolomite's Girling dual circuit master, since all the other fittings on these are metric as well! Later replacement Girling clutch master cylinders would surely have a metric thread here too for standardization/tooling/cost reasons. Hence the interchangeability of the standard lids.
I agree that approximately 5cc float displacement out of a total of near enough 40cc is not TOO bad a prospect. However I would like to experiment with just how much fluid needs to be lost to trip the switch (and how much is left when it IS triggered) before committing myself! These things are designed to operate in a much bigger reservoir, where a 10mm drop in level is not really significant and may even be "normal" in a car equipped with 4 wheel disc brakes. In the tiny clutch reservoir, it's a different story!

Steve

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:27 pm 
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Quote:
One of those frameless float caps in the link should do, assuming you can get one of the correct size and thread! I'm not TOO surprised the undoubtedly metric ATE cap fits a Dolomite's Girling dual circuit master, since all the other fittings on these are metric as well! Later replacement Girling clutch master cylinders would surely have a metric thread here too for standardization/tooling/cost reasons. Hence the interchangeability of the standard lids.

I agree that approximately 5cc float displacement out of a total of near enough 40cc is not TOO bad a prospect. However I would like to experiment with just how much fluid needs to be lost to trip the switch (and how much is left when it IS triggered) before committing myself! These things are designed to operate in a much bigger reservoir, where a 10mm drop in level is not really significant and may even be "normal" in a car equipped with 4 wheel disc brakes. In the tiny clutch reservoir, it's a different story!

Steve
I concur that experimentation would be advisable before committing oneself. I get the impression that relatively little float movement is required to trip the switch, so the reservoir would be close to empty when this happens, with the SAAB 9-3 float switch.

I am also investigating generic float switches in relation to the Triumph Toledo's clutch-fluid reservoir and the 1973~79 VW Type 2's brake-fluid top-up tank, whose filler-neck has just 20½ mm bore.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:36 pm 
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I will check how much the displacment is in the next few days,

the picture is taken that way to show the bottom of the float shroud,

it does look like the trip will occur with enough fluid in the reservoir.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:53 pm 
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I will check how much the displacment is in the next few days,

the picture is taken that way to show the bottom of the float shroud,

it does look like the trip will occur with enough fluid in the reservoir.
Also keep in mind what type of hydraulic brake fluid you are using and its specific gravity (i.e. relative density, compared to that of pure water – 1•0 g/cm³ or 1000 kg/m³).

In the two PDF data sheets that Automec sent to me by e-mail, the specific gravity (i.e. relative density) of their silicone (i.e. Tributyl Phosphate) hydraulic brake fluid is quoted as typically 0•958 on one data sheet and 0•94 @ 15 °C on the other data sheet.

Checking data for conventional polyglycol hydraulic brake fluid, indicates that this typically has a specific gravity (i.e. relative density) in the range 1•01 ~ 1•06.

Hence, in silicone brake fluid, the float would float at a lower level than in polyglycol fluid, but if the effective specific gravity of the float were greater than that of the fluid, the fluid would sink, as indicated by Archimedes' Principle.

I am having similar discussions on The Samba forum, regarding the 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 campervan.

Forum Index > Bay Window Bus > Brake-Fluid Reservoir Screw-Cap with Warning-Light Float-Switch?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... p?t=683066

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Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

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Last edited by naskeet on Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Do you have any figures on the SG of DOT 5.1 Synthetic brake fluid?(which is what I use) This is a very high boiling point racing fluid. I have NO idea what is in it though!

Steve

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'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Do you have any figures on the SG of DOT 5.1 Synthetic brake fluid?(which is what I use) This is a very high boiling point racing fluid. I have NO idea what is in it though!

Steve
The actual formulation of hydraulic brake fluids from different manufacturers probably varies, as do their physical and chemical properties, subject to upper & lower bounds specified by the various standards. So it might be useful to know which brand of DOT 5.1 fluid you are using.

Here is some information that I have so far managed to glean from the Internet.

https://aa-boschap-au.resource.bosch.co ... ue_dot.pdf

Specific gravity: 1.065

http://pcs.federalmogul.com/MSDSSheets/ ... 7c227c.pdf

Specific Gravity: 1.06 - 1.07

http://www.finishlineusa.com/files/Brak ... 202015.pdf

Density (g/ml) 1.07

http://www.hella-pagid.com/hellapagid/a ... .1_ENG.pdf

Density @ 20° C 1.030 – 1.090 g/ml DIN 51757

Whilst I was trawling the Internet, I also stumbled upon DOT 6 hydraulic brake & clutch fluid, which is a new one to me! :shock:

http://liquidintelligence.com.au/produc ... luid-dot-6

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Since you already have the curved dash, there is not much spare space available for auxiliary instruments.


Since I first started thinking about incorporating five additional gauges and an extra warning-light cluster into my Toledo's "four-headlamp" Dolomite dashboard, I have had some further thoughts about the optimal layout of gauges and warning-light clusters. I have also since acquired another 100 mm diameter, three-gauge housing (complete with integral fuel gauge, water-temperature gauge and ammeter) and 60 mm diameter, Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster, originating from a Triumph 1300.

Before removing the dashboard, to then remove the heater unit, sound-insulation foam and other components, to repair significant rust-holes in the bulkhead and the front windscreen pillars, I wanted to complete my trials to determine what if any modifications would be needed behind the dashboard, in order to accommodate the substitute instrument panel and instruments, to avoid possible clearance problems and the safety hazards of chafing.

I also need to determine where it might be necessary or desirable to drill any additional holes in the bulkhead, to facilitate optimal routing for the oil-pressure-gauge pipe/hose connection, inlet-manifold-vacuum-gauge pipe/hose connection, engine-tachometer flexible-drive cable, repositioned choke cable and possible revisions to the wiring loom, into which I intend to incorporate several relays and a revised fuse box.

Quote:
I haven’t made a firm decision about the selection and location of instrumentation, which is something I am still investigating; including the possibility of using instruments originally intended for other vehicle marques & models that utilised Smiths, Jaeger or AC instruments of the same or similar style; my 1974 Triumph Toledo’s original factory-fitted speedometer being an AC instrument.

Ideally, the main walnut-veneered plywood instrument-binnacle should be slightly wider and deeper (i.e. circa 30 mm wider & circa 10~15 mm deeper; especially at the outboard end, close to the circular, cold-air ventilation outlet, which would necessitate a completely different dashboard, but that is not a practical option) to comfortably accommodate my desired instrumentation, including sets of two 2-inch or 2•125-inch gauges arranged vertically.

However, using a full-size paper mock-up of the plywood instrument-binnacle with 104 mm & 56 mm diameter cardboard discs to represent the instrument gauges, I have determined that it might just be practical, to create a new instrument-binnacle, incorporating three 104 mm instruments (i.e. speedometer, tachometer & triple-gauge cluster) and four 56 mm instruments (vertically aligned in groups of two), but there would only be about 5 mm separation, between adjacent instrument bezels. Having this many instruments would be constrained to the following arrangement:

| 1 x 104 mm | 2 x 56 mm | 1 x 104 mm | 2 x 56 mm | 1 x 104 mm |

With this arrangement, the 60 mm diameter, 8-segment warning light cluster would need to be relocated (probably in the time-clock aperture) and there would be little if any room to spare, to incorporate switches or individual warning lights, which would also need to be relocated (in a central console above the gearbox-tunnel or in a supplementary bracket or panel beneath the dashboard, or possibly in the time-clock panel).

Noting that the FWD Triumph 1300 & 1500 and Triumph 2000 featured a four-inch diameter, triple-gauge cluster for coolant temperature, fuel level and either an ammeter or voltmeter, this is one option which might be considered. There also exists a Smiths triple-gauge cluster, which includes an oil-pressure gauge.

Image

I am aware that the FWD Triumph 1300’s ammeter has only a -30~0~30A range, but I envisage that this should be more than adequate for monitoring battery charge & discharge rates; not including starter-motor use. In principle, one could change the ammeter’s range, by substituting a different current-shunt resistor, as covered in GCE “O” Level Physics textbooks. . . .

Using several duplicate double-thickness corrugated-cardboard instrument-panel templates, I have further investigated possible instrument positions, to find the best compromise between the ergonomics of seeing, reading and interpreting the various gauges & warning lights, subject to the physical constraints imposed by possible routes for flexible-drive-cables and electrical cables, plus interference and/or chafing with fixed and moveable components (e.g. heater-lever linkages & windscreen-wiper linkages).

To investigate potential problems with clearances behind the instrument panel and individual instruments, together with the routing of electrical-wiring, hoses and/or pipes and flexible-drive cables, I fabricated several trial instrument-panel mock-up sections of varying heights, from ¼-inch thick MDF off-cuts, accommodating either a single 100 mm diameter instrument or two 52 mm diameter gauges or a single 60 mm diameter warning-light cluster.

Being able to see and feel behind and around individual instruments, positioned in various trial locations, confirmed my original suspicion that the heater unit and right-hand heater-lever linkage would pose the main clearance problem and that instruments would also need to be carefully positioned relative to the two tubular-steel steering-column supports.

The right-hand heater-lever linkage (operates the valve for the hot-water supply to the heater matrix and the damper to divert incoming fresh air through the heater matrix), marked HOT, WARM & COLD on the black-plastic trim, is one of the major sources of potential interference with the gauges and their electrical-wiring, mechanical pipe or hose connections and retainer brackets. This dictates that the only instrumentation that can be used in front of it, are a 60 mm diameter 8-segment warning-light cluster, a pair of 52 mm diameter gauges and/or the 100 mm diameter triple-gauge housing with ammeter. There would be insufficient clearance for either the 100 mm diameter speedometer or 100 mm diameter tachometer (i.e. engine rev counter).

From an ergonomic perspective, it makes sense to locate the two 60 mm diameter 8-segment warning-light clusters as close together as possible; for which the most practical solution is to mount them on either side of the three heater-control levers. Similarly, it would be beneficial to group all of the main gauges together, grouping related functions as closely as possible, as follows:

v Oil-temperature gauge beside water-temperature gauge
v Oil-temperature gauge above oil-pressure gauge
v Voltmeter beside ammeter
v Voltmeter above inlet-manifold vacuum gauge

It would also be beneficial to group together those gauges which are constantly used for the process of driving the car; namely the speedometer, tachometer and inlet-manifold vacuum gauge, such that:

v Inlet-manifold vacuum gauge beside speedometer
v Tachometer beside speedometer

To simultaneously satisfy these ideals, would result in the following arrangement of instruments and warning-light clusters, from left to right for a RHD vehicle; assuming the various physical constraints don’t preclude it:

| 1 x 60 mm | Levers | 1 x 60 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 1 x 100 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 1 x 100 mm | 1 x 100 mm |

· 60 mm Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster [in existing clock-aperture]
· THREE HEATER CONTROL LEVERS
· 60 mm Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster
· 52 mm oil-temperature gauge (top) – [in close proximity to the water-temperature gauge];
· 52 mm oil-pressure gauge (bottom);
· 100 mm circular housing with triple-gauge cluster, incorporating water-temperature gauge (top left) – [in close proximity to the 52 mm oil-temperature gauge], fuel gauge (bottom), and ammeter (top right) – [in close proximity to the 52 mm voltmeter];
· 52 mm voltmeter (top) – [in close proximity to the ammeter];
· 52 mm inlet-manifold vacuum gauge (bottom);
· 100 mm Triumph Toledo dual-scale speedometer, with three integral warning lights for generator (65A alternator), oil-pressure & headlamp main beam;
· 100 mm Triumph Dolomite, Spitfire or GT6 tachometer, possibly with up to two integral warning lights [approximately in the location, previously occupied by the cold-air outlet].

By positioning both the 100 mm diameter speedometer and 100 mm diameter tachometer on the far right-hand side, routing of flexible drive-cables to one or both of the instruments can be readily accommodated without incurring interference problems or the need for small-radius bends. The two tubular-steel steering-column supports, plus the bracketry and linkages associated with the windscreen wipers, impose the main constraints.

The desired position of the oil-temperature & oil-pressure gauges, requires some modification of right-hand heater-lever linkage. This will involve shortening the horizontal rod by about 5 mm, between the lever at one end and the crank at the other, and rotating the crank relative to the lever by about 45 degrees, so that the crank is aligned vertically downward, when the lever is in the lowest COLD position.

This can be most readily achieved by removing a circa 5 mm long section from the horizontal rod and reconnecting the two pieces using a cylindrical collar with two grub-screws; enabling one to fine-tune both the length and the degree of relative rotation. Shortening the rod and rotating the crank, will then require a thin connection link to the damper spindle, to be shortened and reshaped.

It will also be necessary to fabricate a custom retaining bracket for the oil-pressure gauge, shortening the oil-pressure gauge’s ultra-long instrument-illumination bulb-holder spigot and use of a right-angled elbow for the oil-pressure gauge’s pipe or hose connection.

The inlet-manifold vacuum gauge, on the right-hand side of the 100 mm diameter circular housing with triple-gauge cluster, would be in close proximity to the tubular steering-column support bracket, which will necessitate shortening the inlet-manifold vacuum gauge’s ultra-long instrument-illumination bulb-holder spigot and use of a right-angled elbow for the inlet-manifold vacuum gauge’s pipe or hose connection.

This instrument layout, provides little space for anything else in the concave instrument panel, but I should be able to fit two Triumph-pattern, individual rectangular warning-light units, above & below the 60 mm diameter, 8-segment warning-light cluster. These would normally be for the hydraulic brake-circuit failure warning and a reminder to fasten seat belts; the latter of which I would regard as unnecessary.

I hope to fit a similar Triumph-pattern, individual rectangular warning-light unit above the 60 mm diameter, 8-segment warning-light cluster in the former clock aperture, to the left of the heater-control levers and possibly mount the hazard-warning light switch below the 8-segment cluster, but I have yet to confirm whether the latter will be practical. I would prefer to site the hazard-warning light switch there, because it would be easily visible and accessible to both the driver and front-seat passenger in the event of an emergency.

Noting that neither of the two 8-segment warning-light clusters, will be in one’s zone of acute forward vision, I think it might be useful to retro-fit either one or two flashing warning lights, between the 100 mm diameter speedometer and engine-tachometer, which would flash when any one of the vital warning lights (NOT tell-tale lights | e.g. low oil-pressure, generator voltage, brake-circuit failure, low hydraulic fluid, overheating coolant, etc) are illuminated.

The original “four-headlamp” Triumph Dolomite concave instrument panel [10 mm thick | 550 mm long | 135 mm LHS height | 118 mm RHS height | radiused corners of different radii] was made from some form of laminated plywood with a walnut veneer facing, into which all of the instruments were recessed, so that none of the bezels are proud of the instrument panel’s front face.

I have yet to decide how I am going to fabricate the substitute concave instrument panel, into which these instruments will be fitted. There are probably various ways of fabricating an instrument panel and materials that could be used, but the main complication is likely to be the concave shape. Ideally, if practical, I would like to have a matching walnut veneer that would preserve the original Triumph dashboard style, which imparts an air of luxury that set it apart from most other mass-produced cars.

I have been told that it is possible to steam-bend plywood, but I have yet to obtain complete details of how to do this and whether there might only be particular varieties of plywood (e.g. ply thickness, overall thickness and inter-ply glue type) for which this technique is suitable.

It also remains to be discovered, whether the 52 mm, 60 mm & 100 mm diameter holes with rebated edges for the instrumentation, should be created before or after the panel is steam-bent into the required concave shape. It would be much easier to create the holes before bending, but I envisage a high probability of plywood distortion and breakage during the steam-bending process and I suspect that the plies will shift relative to one another, such that the holes in the individual plies would no longer be concentric.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:08 pm 
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A couple of points spring to mind here. As well as sight lines to the warning lights being so bad that you need warning lights to draw your attention to the appearance of a warning light- which strikes me as bordering on the absurd - I see no mention here of how the presence of the steering wheel and it's spokes (and your hands!) impinges on you sight lines to the instruments ahead of you in the main cluster.

It seems to me that you are trying to get the proverbial quart in a pint pot and though I suspect you won't agree, I feel the endeavour is doomed to failure without a radical redesign of the entire dash. You might be better served by going back to the original plank dash.

I never got beyond the drawing stage, but I once designed a complete new dash/crashpad layout for a Consul Capri I owned where the original binnacle in front of the driver housed ONLY warning lights and the instruments (about 10 of them) were housed in a vertical panel in the centre of the dash, angled towards the driver. With the most vital ones at the top. This had the advantage of not having the steering wheel and my hands breaking up the sight lines, all the warning lights were in front of me and the instruments needed only a slight and momentary alteration in sight lines to view.

On other factors, I am no woodworker, but I know a few and plywood can be steam bent but it's difficult, time consuming and not always successful. Also, trite but true, the thicker the panel, the harder it is to bend! And yes, you steam bend the panel first and drill the holes later and veneer last of all, veneer is too fragile to stand up to hole cutters.

I've recently investigated, for a project of my own, how to recess the dial bezels into the panel and you need 2 very large hole cutters, one a clearance size for the bezel and one for the instrument body and you do the bezel recess FIRST then the body clearance hole through the same pilot hole. Hole cutters this big are flippin expensive, want to go halves?

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
Vermillion (and Rust) Sprint Auto EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 40 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Having substituted one of the 60 mm diameter, 8-segment warning-clusters, into the aperture originally occupied by the 60 mm diameter Kienzle clock, which closely matches the style of the three 100 mm diameter instruments, I now need to determine what to do with the clock!

I like having a clock in the car, but it’s not essential. If I am going to retain it, it would either need to be fitted into a panel immediately beneath the right-hand side of the dashboard along with the relocated circular fresh-air outlet or in some form of console below the middle of the dashboard, above the gearbox cover & transmission tunnel. I also need to relocate the carburettor-choke control and the switches for the heated rear window and the manual-override switch & tell-tale light for the Kenlowe electric radiator-cooling fan.

Had I not acquired a 100 mm diameter triple-gauge housing with fuel gauge (bottom), water-temperature gauge (top left) & ammeter (top right), I could have potentially made provision for these functions using three separate 52 mm diameter gauges and have just enough space remaining for one additional 52 mm diameter instrument; possibly a replacement 52 mm diameter clock.

Being only 550 mm long, it would be impossible to position all eight of the 52 mm diameter gauges together, dictating that either one or two pairs of 52 mm diameter instruments would need to be positioned between the 100 mm diameter speedometer and tachometer; corresponding to the following arrangements:

| 1 x 60 mm | Levers | 1 x 60 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 1 x 100 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 1 x 100 mm |

or

| 1 x 60 mm | Levers | 1 x 60 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 1 x 100 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 2 x 52 mm | 1 x 100 mm |

Owing to the variation in instrument-panel height from the left-hand side (i.e. 135 mm) to the right-hand side (i.e. 118 mm), close to the windscreen pillar, there is limited space towards the right-hand end, for two 52 mm gauges (with 55•5 mm external-diameter bezels), arranged one above the other. If two pairs of 52 mm diameter instruments were positioned between the 100 mm diameter speedometer and tachometer, this would require a smaller bend-radius for the speedometer’s flexible-drive cable, which might lead to premature failure.

These and other physical constraints of the instrument panel size & shape, plus the possible routes for a flexible speedometer-drive cable, the instruments would probably need to be arranged as follows:

· 60 mm Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster [in existing clock-aperture]
· THREE HEATER CONTROL LEVERS
· 60 mm Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light cluster
· 52 mm oil-temperature gauge (top) – [beside water-temperature gauge];
· 52 mm oil-pressure gauge (bottom) – [below oil-temperature gauge];
· 52 mm water-temperature gauge (top) – [beside oil-temperature gauge & above clock]
· 52 mm clock (bottom) – [below water-temperature gauge];
· 52 mm fuel gauge (top) – [above inlet-manifold vacuum gauge];
· 52 mm inlet-manifold vacuum gauge (bottom) – [below fuel gauge];
· 100 mm Triumph Toledo dual-scale speedometer, with three integral warning lights for generator (65A alternator), oil-pressure & headlamp main beam;
· 52 mm ammeter (top) – [above voltmeter];
· 52 mm voltmeter (bottom) – [below ammeter];
· 100 mm Triumph Dolomite, Spitfire or GT6 tachometer, possibly with up to two integral warning lights {approximately in the location, previously occupied by the cold-air outlet}.

In some ways, this layout would be similar to that of the Triumph Stag.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-stag- ... SwwVpZyhqY

The instrument panel has a height of only 124 mm) at the location 140~145 mm to the left of the right-hand edge, corresponding to the required location of a pair of 52 mm diameter gauges (with 2 x 55•5 mm diameter bezels) between the speedometer and tachometer. This would provide three margins in the instrument panel, above and below the 55•5 mm diameter bezels, totalling just 13 mm (i.e. 124 mm - 2 x 55•5 mm) or slightly more than 4¼ mm for each margin.

If it were possible to implement this layout, which I doubt (owing to the limited instrument panel height for two of the 52 mm diameter gauges between the 100 mm diameter speedometer and tachometer), I would need to find a 52 mm Smiths ammeter, temperature gauge and clock of similar appearance to the other instruments.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 3:38 pm
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Quote:
A couple of points spring to mind here. As well as sight lines to the warning lights being so bad that you need warning lights to draw your attention to the appearance of a warning light- which strikes me as bordering on the absurd - I see no mention here of how the presence of the steering wheel and it's spokes (and your hands!) impinges on you sight lines to the instruments ahead of you in the main cluster.
One of my reasons for creating the full-size corrugated cardboard mock-ups (with full-scale marker-pen sketches of instruments drawn on them), and trial-fitting them as concave panels into the dashboard aperture, was to assess lines of sight, visibility and potential sources of obscuration.

Contrary to my initial expectations, the visibility of virtually all of the concave instrument panel is extremely good; my lines of sight to the whole panel being above the two horizontal spokes of the 14½-inch, 3-spoke Dolomite steering-wheel, when the “four-headlamp” Dolomite adjustable steering-column & steering-wheel are in my preferred position for driving. This might not be true for other drivers of different physical stature!

The far left-hand & right-hand portions of the upper half of the steering-wheel rim, would slightly obscure part of the engine-tachometer (i.e. rev counter) on the far right-hand side and part of the 8-segment warning-light cluster on the far left-hand side, but all other instruments are completely visible, with no obscuration whatsoever. My lines of sight to the whole of the small panel between the heater control levers and the glove-box lid are unobscured, and the 8-segment warning-light cluster in the clock-aperture is clearly visible.

Even in relation to tachometer and warning-light cluster in the concave instrument panel, obscuration by the steering-wheel rim is minimal, because what my right-hand eye can’t see, my left-hand eye can see most of, and vice versa. If I keep my head completely still, the steering-wheel rim creates only a very narrow curved obscuration band of about 3~4 mm perceived width, so at least some portion of each of the warning-light segments would be clearly visible to either one or both of my eyes.

Some people might not have this independent eye facility, if one eye is too “dominant”, but as a GCE “A” Level Biology student during the early-1970s, I was obliged to learn to use one eye to make observations through a microscope, whilst simultaneously using the other eye to aid the drawing of illustrations on paper; a neat trick if one can master it properly!

When driving the Toledo, I tend to place my hands in the 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock positions, so it’s unlikely that my small dainty hands on the steering-wheel would obscure anything, when the “four-headlamp” Dolomite driver’s seat is adjusted to my preferred height & reach. Having my hands in this position, also enables me to operate either of the steering-column mounted stalk switches, simply by moving my fingers. The several steering-column-nacelle mounted paddle-switches, are also quickly and easily accessible.

In my experience, one perceives the moment of illumination of a warning light (even if quite faint) in line-of-sight of one’s peripheral vision (i.e. outside the 7-degree zone of clear focused vision), provided one isn’t distracted at that exact moment by other things! Once a faint light is already constantly illuminated (i.e. unchanging - not flashing or occulting), it is less readily noticeable, even within one’s 7-degree zone of clear focused vision. This is the principal reason that flashing direction-indicator lamps were introduced, in place of constantly illuminated semaphore indicators.

These are things which are explored as part of cognitive psychology and were part of the remit of the School of Automotive Studies (in the same building as the School of Mechanical Engineering wherein I studied for my M.Sc.), at Cranfield Institute of Technology.
Quote:
It seems to me that you are trying to get the proverbial quart in a pint pot and though I suspect you won't agree, I feel the endeavour is doomed to failure without a radical redesign of the entire dash. You might be better served by going back to the original plank dash.
I simply seek the optimal close-packing solution, subject to various physical constraints. If by one means or other, I am able to fabricate the concave instrument panel in the configuration I desire, one will effectively be fitting a quart into a quart-pot, instead of previously fitting a pint into a quart-pot.

I disposed of the original “Toledo” flat-faced dashboard, non-adjustable steering column and black-leatherette covered seats (lacked head restraints and the driver’s seat was not height-adjustable), more than three decades ago, so reverting to a flat-faced dashboard isn’t likely to be an option. Besides that, it’s debatable whether the flat-faced dashboard panel would be high enough, to accommodate a pair of 52 mm diameter gauges arranged one above the other!?!

To completely redesign and fabricate a whole dashboard is beyond my present capabilities and access to the necessary design tools and fabrication methods, so I shall have to stick with Plan A and pray that I can get it to work. If not, I can still revert to having an almost factory-standard “four-headlamp” Dolomite concave instrument panel, but I am not ready to admit defeat yet.
Quote:
On other factors, I am no woodworker, but I know a few and plywood can be steam bent but it's difficult, time consuming and not always successful. Also, trite but true, the thicker the panel, the harder it is to bend! And yes, you steam bend the panel first and drill the holes later and veneer last of all, veneer is too fragile to stand up to hole cutters.
This is very much what I had already deduced. I certainly would not attempt to drill holes or saw-cut circular holes through veneer, although I know it can be done if one uses the appropriate techniques and tool-bits.
Quote:
I've recently investigated, for a project of my own, how to recess the dial bezels into the panel and you need 2 very large hole cutters, one a clearance size for the bezel and one for the instrument body and you do the bezel recess FIRST then the body clearance hole through the same pilot hole. Hole cutters this big are flippin expensive, want to go halves?
As you rightly note, good-quality hole-saws are extremely expensive! One could probably hire some for a day from a tool-hire shop. Another way to cut rebated holes in a flat panel, would be to first drill a pilot hole and then cut along the circular boundary using a router having an appropriate tool-bit profile.

I might also investigate the possibilities of employing a CNC milling machine and/or a CNC laser cutter, which seem to be becoming increasingly common in the technology or engineering departments of local secondary schools and further-education colleges.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Location: London
Something along these lines would help,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Draper-40mm-12 ... 0795899055

You would need a block bigger than the dial being cut out behind the dashboard, which has to stay to allow the
recess to be made, ie: the auger part will need the block after cutting the first hole out.

Also put masking tape over the veneer to minimise chipping, cut from veneer side.

Can be done cheaply and neatly, but you have to be patient and careful.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:53 pm
Posts: 391
Location: Harrow Middlesex
Quote:
Something along these lines would help,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Draper-40mm-12 ... 0795899055

You would need a block bigger than the dial being cut out behind the dashboard, which has to stay to allow the
recess to be made, ie: the auger part will need the block after cutting the first hole out.

Also put masking tape over the veneer to minimise chipping, cut from veneer side.

Can be done cheaply and neatly, but you have to be patient and careful.
I never found that sort of cutter much good,try tool station there cutter are okay and cheap :D

Dave


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