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 Post subject: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:46 pm 
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It's occurred to me that what Volkswagen have done in cheating the American emissions test with software that detunes the car to get through the test and then retunes afterwards to get it to run properly is an automated version of what late 70s Triumph owners have had to do for years.

I'm sure many of us have to weaken the mixture on our cars to get it through the MOT emissions test and then retune it to a proper richer setting to get it to run properly after the MOT has been granted, or is it just me!

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Yep we were the forefathers of selective tweaking :lol:

Tony

ps I still do it :)

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:25 pm 
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I found the best 'adjustment' to be a brief bit of eye contact and a gentlemanly nod as the tester waves the emissions tester around the exhaust enough to give a suitable result :P

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:11 pm 
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Yep been there worn the tee shirt :lol:

Also the car I built had to meet a CAT emissions test for IVA and I had to make a catalic exhaust and change the ECU to get it through, however if I had given the car some stick it would have melted a piston or two. The ECU now has a piggy back special one and the exhaust is hanging in the garage :wink:

For my money why does the world fuss so much when all we buy has been made in China and shipped halfway round the world to get here just so the Chinese can grind up Rhino horns and Tiger whiskers plus any other endangered animals that can die for so called medicines as their factories turn their countryside black with polution.................ooooh I am such a sceptic :lol:

While still up here on my enormous soap box why all the fuss over shopping bags when dozens weigh the same as one plastic milk carton?...............just a thought :roll:

AAArgh I have fallen from my soap box :)

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:46 am 
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The question that many are concerned about is re car tax costs.
Many of these cars were bought on the basis of low emissions=low tax, especially for company car drivers.
If the cars are re-designated retrospectively, will the drivers have to suddenly pay all teh back tax, just from now on or not at all. Will the govt get the money direct from VW (this is a real possibility, a deal will be done that will not be at all punitive but satisfy the papers, and save the worry of the owners)

Realistically though, all these diesels that boot out 150bhp plus seem to only produce the same C02 as a tiny petrol engine. Yes diesels are a little more efficient, but maybe 15% (ie 30% efficiency for petrol, maybe 35% on a diesel) so some serious questions need to be raised.
In reality it could be done of fuel consumption. Assume 100% of fuel is burnt to produce CO2 and do the calcs. And the consumption figures should be based on real driving (on a track? driven by a robot of some description to get repeatable results)
Then there needs to be an environmental tax on the carbon footprint of the cars production, including raw material production and transport, right up to delivery. That would upset many "environmentalists" (as opposed to some of us who once studied it properly, before all the green marketing appeared)

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:14 am 
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What VW have done is extremely clever, design a car to recognise when it's being tested and thus return results that match the requirements. The issue in this case is NOX emissions which are much tighter in the US than in Europe. This case has nothing to do with CO2 but of course the manufacturers also bend the rules for these tests. Taping up door gaps, folding mirrors and I suspect running different engine maps. For example my 1 series has 3 driving modes: Eco, Comfort and Sport. In Sport it flies and performs as you'd expect a BMW to do. Stick it in Eco though and it's totally unresponsive on the throttle, much more aggressive shift indicators, it also minimises the use of AC and other electrical items to reduce drag on the alternator. All very clever stuff and no doubt this is the mode that BMW use when they do the official tests that gives it a combined mpg of about 68. Actually on a good run I can easily do 60+mpg so perhaps they didn't cheat too much. What the NOX emissions are though I have no idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:45 am 
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I was talking 2 things really. The CO2 stuff is what will worry owners, as in money.
If your car is sold was a certain tax band, it should be limited to the map that produces the emissions. Seems fair? if it has a alternative mode(s), then it should be taxed on the emissions produced by the "worst" map.
People are largely fools and are being sold stuff they think is good, but without understanding the bigger picture. Everybody happy.

However, as this affects (probably) the whole car movement, which is huge and powerful with politicians in its pocket (and no doubt many on payrolls, legit and otherwise) I think this will go away faster than expected, a few slapped wrists and scapegoats (handsomely looked after) and tweeks here and there. Maybe changes to diesel legislation, which was likely to happen anyway, but now expedited.

Me, cynical? Never.

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Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:23 pm 
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Best not even start on electric cars with many batteries full of highly toxic chemicals, not to mention that they get their power from coal fired power stations :lol:

Best thing to do for the environment is drive a recycled classic..

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 Post subject: So....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:01 pm 
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The boss of VW has admitted that they have deliberately committed a truly massive fraud,
thereby informing us that their diesel cars are not fit for purpose.

Shouldn't affected VW owners everywhere take their cars back for, at the very least, a full refund?



Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:48 pm 
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I'm thinking this might be the tip of a very large iceberg.
VAG - VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda.

Maybe some are more subtle than VW.

America doesn't do diesel, this is great for their industry, but have shenanigans been going on in the petrol cars?
How many more manufacturers have been at it? Obviously the Yanks would love to get at non-American manufacturers, I wonder where this will stop........

Software has been a vehicle killer for years, but I didn't imagine this version of killer.

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:56 am 
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Quote:
What VW have done is extremely clever, design a car to recognise when it's being tested and thus return results that match the requirements. The issue in this case is NOX emissions which are much tighter in the US than in Europe.
This is exactly the point. Well said Mark. The only question to be asked is " Do these cars pass the requirements of the specification under the specified test conditions. " And the answer is a YES.
So no problem.
The only problem VAG had is that they didn't get their lawyers on the case fast enough.
Could I guess that the requirement here is the Euro 6 emissions ?
It is the spec; writers who need the scrutiny. But specifying emissions on a "typical" road will be a minefield.
Do you remember Fiat had a problem with hill climbing in some of their cars ( BBC Watchdog ) which was to be corrected with a software mod ? Now I wonder how they will do that ?
I would guess that tweaking the software here will affect the performance of the car. And who is going to take their VW in to be detuned for the sake of emissions.
But again.... what specification will they be adjusted to ?


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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:15 am 
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VW are being a bunch of nonces...

Perfectly reasonable to have an ECU that detects when its on a rolling road and stops poisoning the mechanics
accordingly.

Engineering and politics in the worst kind of mix here....like oil and water....they don't get on.

They should just play hard bat and come up with a reasonable technical explanation. Let the "politicos" call it fraud
and give the VW lawyers something to fight with in court. Winterkorns job was to defend his engineering, not fall on his sword for some stupid point of honour.

VW's board have displayed supreme incompetence here. I feel damn sorry for all the poor folks who have devoted their working lives to this organisation that has now totally let them down at the top level.

As to the press reporting, well are we at all surprised? Factual inaccuracy and sanctimonious judgemental copy all over the place.

You would be hard pressed to make it up....

Jonners

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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:51 am 
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And we can now see where this is going:
Quote:
Olaf Lies, a Volkswagen board member and economy minister of Lower Saxony has told Newsnight some staff acted criminally over emission cheat tests
The name sums it all up.......
And of course, shows the ties between car makers and governments. Inseparable.

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Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:54 pm 
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I'm not concerned about this. My Skoda has one of the 'affected' engines, an EA189 I believe, and after having a bit of a discussion with someone in the industry we agree that if they have to all they will probably do is issue a recall and install a Urea injection system into the exhaust with a tank in the boot, the tank lasts about 10K and gets topped up as part of a service, if you need more I suspect that VW/Skoda/Audi may offer it free. I suspect the work will be done when you take your car in for a service.

It is highly unlikely that it will affect road tax as the way the CO2 emmissions are done in europe differs from the US. If the road tax band did change they would be open for a HUGE class action law suit across the VAG group. Remember that includes Seat, Skoda, Audi and VW.


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 Post subject: Re: Doing a Volkswagen
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:17 pm 
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more to the point is that they lied! and gave false data/infomation,,,,,how many of you bought diesels and where told diesels are now clean,,,and blah blah blah

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