The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Shaun you are nowhere near!

In theory, IF your car is a reshell, (and I DON'T want to know if it is!) ie the shell is not the one that corresponds to the comm number on the V5, then it should go through the BIVA and all that that entails. In practice, unless it is a very late car with the VIN stamped into the boot lip, who is to know? Me and at least another 20 Dolomite "experts" could create a "Sprint" shell, from a 1500HL say, that would fool all the other "experts", let alone someone who did not know Dolomites intimately!

As I have often said in the past, with Triumphs, identity is a matter of opinion, and the opinion that counts is the one of the man with the V5 in his hands!

As to your other mods and changes, NONE of it counts, you have replaced like for like! Sprint engine, box, axle, prop, steering, suspension, subframe, Your one non factory mod, the TJs is free as there are no points deducted for braking mods! As to the cage, tank, battery lines, etc, none of that even rates a mention in the rules.

The only thing I can see you falling foul of is the proposed 15% power to weight ratio increase limit for MOT exemption status. Which merely means that, should you declare that the car is uprated (and the weight you have shed alone, means you probably SHOULD, never mind the cam, webers etc) you would need to continue to MOT the car annually, no big deal! But my feeling is that this proposal will die, or be amended to vehicles with less than 8 points, before it gets into the statute book next April, even if the rolling 40 year old MOT exemption doesn't get killed off! Which it should!

Even this may not apply, some are interpreting the rules as to only apply to transplants, not uprated standard engines, after all, how would anyone KNOW, without a dyno printout? - And those are notoriously unreliable!

You, at least, can sleep easy!

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:19 am 
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Cheers Steve, that's an excellent and concise answer ta!

The engine and shell are original to each other: the axle was changed because it was bent and the gearbox was long gone before I got the car, so there are no originality issues.

My own personal feelings, knowing how some people's perception of what is well prepared and what isn't, is entirely different, and therefore every vehicle on the road, no matter its age, should be tested to a relevant baseline standard.

It will only take one failure on an exempted vehicle, to plow through a bus stop full of people and legislation will swing the other way and they'll try and ban all cars over ten years old.

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Still searching for Sprint UUW 410M....If you know it or see it, I want it back! Now known to be in the Llandudno area....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Breaking news!

Out today, this weeks edition of Classic car weekly carries the headline "MOT rules for modded classics scrapped"

I've only seen a pic of the headline but will try and get a copy tomorrow to read the article and pass it on here!

But it just MIGHT be good news for once!

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Well, that was a waste of £2.60 (only faintly ameliorated by the Sprint vs Saab Turbo back to back article)

No hard news and the article is still confusing VHI status of modifieds under the DVLA 8 point rule with this proposed 15% P/W increase limit under DfT/MOT regs. When they are not related in any way!

It would appear that FBHVC has indeed talked DfT or whoever out of the 15% power increase limit as defining "substantially altered" (because it's stupid, unworkable, impossible to apply or enforce and probably illegal) but no substitute has yet been agreed on!

My money STILL says, they will settle on the 8 point rule for this, as it means they won't need to do ANYTHING - which is free!

As the rules stand, more than 8 points and the car is a VHI, keeps it's number plate, gets free VED and exemption from MOT (come next May) and congestion zone regs. Less than 8 points and the car gets a Biva, a Q plate and a lifetime of MOTs and VED.

Having said that, the first Q plate registrations were issued in 1982, so some Qs will legitimately be 40 years old soon. It will be interesting to see if they are offered free VED and VHI status (as they should be if there is any justice - which I doubt!)

A few people have been flagrantly ignoring the 8 point rule in their car builds and DVLA, realizing this, has started to tighten up on it, to general consternation amongst the rule flouters. This imposed self declaration of "substantially altered" would, no doubt have enabled them to focus their aim more exactly, by getting folk to incriminate themselves! Now they'll have to find another way!

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:28 am 
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My money STILL says, they will settle on the 8 point rule for this, as it means they won't need to do ANYTHING - which is free!

As the rules stand, more than 8 points and the car is a VHI, keeps it's number plate, gets free VED and exemption from MOT (come next May) and congestion zone regs. Less than 8 points and the car gets a Biva, a Q plate and a lifetime of MOTs and VED.
Completely agree, its the logical solution.
Quote:
A few people have been flagrantly ignoring the 8 point rule in their car builds and DVLA, realizing this, has started to tighten up on it,
I think this is mainly in the 'hot rod' community, those who take a ford pop and put a space frame chassis under it and a huge V8. Plus from what I have seen a lot of people who own old escorts have heavily modified them way outside of the 8 point rule. It's generally those people who will shout the loudest and stamp their feet about it being 'unfair'. With an engine swap like yourself, Dan and a couple of the guys who have done MX5 conversions I don't think we have anything to worry about too much.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Put a .......
Had to remove the rest of that sentence.
Please adhere to the forum's rules.


Thanks,
Ian.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
A few people have been flagrantly ignoring the 8 point rule in their car builds and DVLA, realizing this, has started to tighten up on it,
I think this is mainly in the 'hot rod' community, those who take a ford pop and put a space frame chassis under it and a huge V8. Plus from what I have seen a lot of people who own old escorts have heavily modified them way outside of the 8 point rule. It's generally those people who will shout the loudest and stamp their feet about it being 'unfair'. With an engine swap like yourself, Dan and a couple of the guys who have done MX5 conversions I don't think we have anything to worry about too much.
I agree that the folk who have put a massive V8 in a space frame under a GRP Pop shell, or an air cooled flat 4 in the back of an Allegro (Yes it really does exist) are the DVLA's main targets here.

I'm not going to go into the in and outs of how iniquitous the 8 point rule is, or how it was meant to apply to kit cars, not modified production cars. The fact is that the rule exists and it is the yardstick that DVLA uses and we are almost certainly stuck with it!

And what it says, with only tiny exceptions, is that if you have a monocoque shell, that shell must REMAIN in a completely original and unmodified state to garner the 5 points and original shell marker needed to avoid a Biva and all that entails You can't cut out even a small inconvenient bit of bulkhead or tunnel (structurally significant or not) and stay within the rules. Even if you replace it with something twice as good - but different.

Now i'm not worried for myself, both the Carledo and the Dolomega have been built adhering to this key point, but I know of a few other Dolomites (no names, no pack drill) which have not observed the rules so carefully. It is these cars that are "at risk" and I think that DVLA WILL turn it's attention to ever more minor infringements once a) they've dealt with the more serious malefactors and b) they have some way (like self incrimination by owners as proposed in the 15% rule) of easily identifying possible targets!

After all, every VED free VHI is lost revenue for them and that probably irks them as much as it pleases us to fill in the online form and get the £0.00 bill!

I know that DVLA can demand to inspect your modified car if they have reason to suspect that it is in contravention of said rules, and I don't want to scaremonger, but if they can get YOU to admit its "substantially modified" how long will it be before they call in ALL such cars and charge their owners for the privilege of having to prove it's NOT outside the rules?

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Well, th
As the rules stand, more than 8 points and the car is a VHI, keeps it's number plate, gets free VED and exemption from MOT (come next May) and congestion zone regs.

Steve
Hi Steve, Thanks for mentioning that point on Congestion Zone regs; .This is quite relevant to me in my part of the world so I researched it and learned something new !
See new thread below on this so I don't hi-jack your thread.
Cheers,
Tony.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Thought this might interest folk, borrowed from RR Forum.

https://screenshots.firefox.com/dhK4u3o ... bhvc.co.uk

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:52 am 
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So, just seen the new guidelines as reported by Reg in Dolomite related and on FB, Retro rides etc and the good news is that the 15% P2W rule is gone. On a personal note, I will still not get an exemption on the Carledo but I don't really care as, so long as I continue to MOT it voluntarily, I won't have to declare officially that it's not a VHI and leave myself open to DVLA deciding later that I can't have free tax after all! I also, by a quirk of fate don't have to worry about it till 2019 as my MOT and (free) Tax run out on the 15th and 31st of March respectively, so will be done before the new MOT exemption rules come into force in May!

Though there is an interesting loophole, in that, if the mods are for the purpose of making the car safer, more economical, or more environmentally friendly then that's ok! The trick would be convincing DVLA that though all this is actually true on my car (in all 3 counts) that of COURSE that is why I doubled the horsepower!

The other thing that is good is that "within model range" transplants are acceptable, so a Sprint motor into a Toledo, or any other Dolomite, is OK. And since there is no mention of it, I suspect that tuned or uprated original type engines are also OK. Though ironically, my unacceptable Vauxhall swap is both more economical on fuel and better on emissions (close to MOT CAT levels) than an acceptable stock carbed Sprint unit would ever be! Oh well! Who said life was fair?

Steve

_________________
2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, MOT prep. Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:22 am 
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Yes, the rules actually seem to work.
Engine swaps that are the same basic engine seems a fair compromise, as does the changes if they were commonplace within 10 years of end of production.

The improved safety/efficiency clause does not apply to engines, but axles and brakes. Again seems fair.

So apart from incorrectly registered kitcars, that don't meet the old 8 point rule, the only cars that seem to fail the VHI requirements are cars with "alien" engines. That will be my spitfire then! But like you, an annual MoT is no hardship, and useful should anything go wrong in the future.

I remember years ago talking to a chap on the IoM. No MoTs for any cars. But he did say in the event of a serious accident, you would be expected to show service records to show the car was maintained. I think that is understandable, but in the UK human nature for many means they will think it fantastic they no longer have to worry about the annual MoT so as long as the car moves they will happily drive it. Bald tyres, knackered brakes or whatever, it won't matter to them :(

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Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:26 pm 
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I think that is understandable, but in the UK human nature for many means they will think it fantastic they no longer have to worry about the annual MoT so as long as the car moves they will happily drive it. Bald tyres, knackered brakes or whatever, it won't matter to them :(
Oh yes. I am old enough to remember when the MOT (or 10 year test as it was then) was first introduced. There were some horrific old wrecks in daily use. Holes in floors and sills, no brakes, steering with 6" play at the steering wheel, tyres with the cords showing through. My Dad's old A40 Somerset had terrific steering shake at anything over 45 mph, so bad it could break your thumbs if you had them through the spokes. He fixed it by never driving that fast!

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Mike
(MGB GTV8, BMW Z3 2.2, and Dolomite 1850HL)


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