The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

I don't know if it was deliberate, but you haven't disclosed the exact nature of your "trans failure" only that it occurred whilst transiting a mountain pass (which gives me several ideas) and that it was obviously sufficiently serious that the car was undriveable.

Does Binny have the (optional on the 1850) trans cooler fitted? And what colour was the oil that came out?

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

Not really deliberate Steve, I just don't know what went wrong.
We were climbing the Passo Giau about 20kms out of Cortina d'Ampezzo on the 4th day of the run. Everything so far had been fine, no signs of problems, no funny noises or anything like that. Then suddenly as we rounded a hairpin and started to accelerate up the hill to the next one the car just stalled. (edit: Here I think... https://goo.gl/maps/KqSZuyGxdvh4dWuz5 although it looks like the lay-by appeared sometime after 2019!)
It wouldn't restart, turning over really slowly as though the battery was flat (my initial guess at the problem was that somehow the battery/charging had failed - and that's why we cut out)
We rolled the car back round the hairpin to a lay-by on the previous "straight" section, got the hazards on and the bonnet up.
Various cars on the run stopped and helped and with a jump start we got the engine running, but on releasing the throttle it died. Again got the engine running and it was ticking over. Selected drive and nothing in any gear or reverse.
Dipped and topped the trans fluid up - still nothing.
Then finally we got a small amount of drive (but slipping), u-turned and started heading back to Cortina. After about 1km we lost drive again so gave up and called for recovery. I periodically restarted and tried for drive over the 7 or so hours waiting for recovery, but at no point did we regain any drive in any gears.
When the car came back (about 7 weeks later) there was sufficient drive to get it off the driveway into the garage, but it was slipping and something was screeching.

I haven't inspected the oil properly, at a glance slightly cloudy.
My working theory is that the gearbox pump jammed/blocked - the sudden high load on the engine caused the stall and the "flat battery" symptoms, but once we turned it over enough we'd either wrecked the pump or something and that's why drive was gone.
Hopefully I'll find some evidence in the next few days as I strip it down. At this stage I'm thinking I'll bite the bullet and go for a full recon box and torque converter and "play it safe" rather than trying to repair it myself (depending on what I find)

Edit: to add, no transmission oil cooler fitted.

_________________

It sounds to me like some part of the trans, brake band, pump, or a bearing somewhere got too hot under load and seized up. Most likely the front pump as no other part of the trans is solidly connected to the crank and thereby able to slow cranking.

Had I thought about it at the time, I would have advised you to fit a trans cooler before you went pass storming! I was involved with these cars when they were new and the sales staff had notices circulated that required them to advise prospective customers to get the cooler fitted if they were intending to use the car in more than normal motoring. The actual example used was caravan towing, but pass storming, which combines high altitude (lower engine performance) and frequent gear changes under heavy load at low road speeds is also a solid recipe for overheating the trans. Accelerating uphill will also tend to give you oil surge towards the rear of the trans and may have let the pump, at the very front of the case, run "dry" momentarily, which wouldn't help!

If you have indeed created this amount of carnage in the trans, then more than just the pump will have suffered. Brake bands, clutches and the converter will also have been damaged and a full rebuild of the original will more than likely be at least as expensive as starting with a recon and a new convertor (don't even think about saving money by keeping the original convertor)

I'd also advise you to push the boat out and get a cooler fitted, the fittings are on the trans and you won't necessarily have to hunt for a genuine Sprint one, aftermarket ones are available. Even if you never do the 10CR again, it will still aid in trans longevity and give you a bit more peace of mind!

Steve

PS, Just reviewed the google maps thing and moved a mile or so either way from the point zero. It's a bl***y relentless climb that will surely tax ANY car to the limit. Pretty though!

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

My money is on the pump having seized/failed, the intermittent drive I did briefly get was the same in all gears (at least R / 1 / 2, not sure I got to 3) slipping, intermittent and generally not good. If it was a specific break band that had given out I'd have expected some variability depending on the gear. But anyway... the time is almost upon us when I take it apart and attempt to find out!

Up to the point where it went, we were going great up and down the hills and mountains. No signs of any issues, no smells of hot transmission fluid or anything like that, just a sudden stop!

_________________

So I had a devil of a job getting the torque converter off the box... and when I got it off it became clear why. The front bearing that carries the converter as it enters the pump had welded itself to the neck of the torque converter. And as a result removing the converter had also pulled the front seal out out of the box.

_________________

Yep, that's pretty fatal! Had to be summat at the front to make it refuse to crank. Still think it's a consequence of a combination of a) heat, b) steep uphill/oil surge, possibly with a side order of c) slightly low oil level.

I suspect the case will be junk too, as that bearing will have been trying to spin in it.

A trans cooler not only helps it stay cool (D'oh) it also keeps an additional litre or 3 of fluid in the system to fall back on. Hindsight is 20/20!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

Had word from the gearbox specialist, a reconditioned gearbox and torque converter are on their way back to me, should arrive late this week. Then the work begins to get her back on the road!

_________________

Last night the last of the reconnect/refit tasks were completed. With the car still up on the stands I tried the ignition and BINGO! She started and ran (briefly as the garage doors were shut!)
So, down off the stands, doors opened and reversed out of the garage under her own power for the first time since being recovered.

My joy didn't last long though, I refitted the bonnet and took a short run up the street to test drive etc. On the return run the car just died and wouldn't restart (might be a fuel issue - tried running from a Jerry can AND a different fuel pump though - still no joy and a flat battery). With the help of my son who popped round to help I got her towed back into the drive and parked up.

This morning battery on charge and have the itch to go and investigate, but that'll have to wait until this evening as I have work all day.

Some you win... some you lose.

_________________

Inhibitor problem possibly….selection rod needing adjustment?

Quite possible in terms of the not cranking - IIRC that's what it "inhibits"?
No idea why it wouldn't start when it was cranking though. Pump just didn't seem to be drawing fuel, either when connected to the tank or to a jerry can.

_________________

A quick continuity check on the inhibitor indicates it's ok in the park position. BUT no volts at the starter when the ignition is turned to the start position. Checking back, no volts at the feed into the inhibitor switch either - starting to look like the lack of cranking is actually down to the ignition switch or wiring in the column area.
I'll double check everything as I go along though.

_________________

The gearbox loom on manual cars have a looped connection at the plug where it joins the main loom to bypass the starter inhibition required with an automatic; might be worth looking at that plug area to start with to ensure one of the connections within it hasn't been compromised as you put things back together...

Thanks Alun, I took a look and on Binny there are 4 single pole bullet to bullet connectors, 2 are the lines too/from the inhibitor for the starter circuit, the other 2 for the reverse light.
I'll double check voltages/continuity at that point this evening.

_________________

Annoyingly - I went through the fuel and ignition systems... found the no-cranking fault, the back of the switch on the ignition barrel is moving as the key turns to the start position. So sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Fiddling with the switch - at the moment it's cranking consistently. I've left the shroud off the column until I sort a permanent solution.
Part 2, the lack of starting. I checked the fuel system and actually it all seems ok, plenty of flow from the pump on cranking.
So turned my attention to the ignition system, didn't find any faults, but suspect there was a loose/poor connection on the electronic ignition.
The car now cranks and starts consistently.
Next step... a few test runs and then an MOT.

_________________

There should be two minute screws that hold the white disc shaped switch in place on the back of the barrel…