<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>lethal force on a burgler fleeing from his property? <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
The fact that he was apparantly leaving makes no difference in the eyes of the law. Mr Martins legal defences of fear of his life or self defence are completely unaffected by what direction the thief was facing.<br>
<br>
However, if he had allowed the guy to leave, he'd come back and then been shot Mr Martin would have almost automatically guilty of pre-meditated murder because he'd picked up the gun & thought about it on a previous occasion.<br>
<br>
Tinweevil
<p>1978 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/704">Dolomite Sprint</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1972 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/754">Spitfire IV</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1968 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/705">GT6 II</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1973 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/755">Dolomite Sprint</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
39 anorak points on the Nicholas scale<br>
</p><i></i>
Tony Martin TV show....
Urban myths...
...remember Gibralter? Was not the question asked in court of one of the soldiers why one of the suspects was shot 18 times and the response given as "...because I ran out of ammunition!" it has been said its not playstation out there..if there is a job to be done it has to be done ruthlessly and efficiently. Iranian embassy...one terrorist 'survived' purely because he escaped into the view of the cameras and public.<br>
<br>
Those of us who do not protect the 'us' and are not trained to do so or even have any idea of what is involved cannot begin to imagine the responsibility of having such a situation arise and therefore are not fit to judge. We cannot talk of incompetence or error of judgement as unfortunately we rely on two sources of information; our dreadful media and their insistence that the public has "a right to know" giving them jurisdiction to print and sensationalise anything they chose and our malignant government who chose what snippets of information we should be allowed to feed upon. I eschewed television some ten years ago with this as a significant reason and rarely read a newspaper or believe what is written unless it is a stated subjective comment.<br>
<br>
Any of us ever had to make a split second life or death decision? Get it right and you are a hero, get it wrong and you are branded incompetent? Either way you have to live life on a mental edge and carry the images of your actions with you whatever the outcome. Blowing someones head off be it either to save life or as a mistake cannot be pleasant and I doubt that operative has had much self peace since...I doubt he would have had his actions been proven justified.<br>
<br>
Any of us live alone on a remote farm, repeatedly victim of those who believe they can take at will what we treasure and ignored by a distracted police force? How would we react, sane or slightly eccentric?<br>
<br>
Yes, regretable mistakes occur and there needs to be mechanisms in place to investigate such actions. A public forum of the uninitiated and uninformed is no place for such things as this is where high blood pressure, sanctimony, villification and mob rule develop.<br>
<br>
quote<br>
<br>
We've found a witch...may we burn her? <br>
How do you know she's a witch?<br>
Well...she looks like one.<br>
I'm not a witch; they dressed me up like this.<br>
Well...?<br>
OK, we did the hat...the hat and the nose, but she's definitely a witch.<br>
She turned me into a newt...I got better...<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the CPO resigning, his Mate at the top of the government has shown him a shining example of how to avoid this; remember the statement that "he took full responsibility for" the errors leading up to Iraq? I'm still waiting to see the manifest of that responsibility and since then 'we' have re-elected the grinning idiot! ...???<br>
<p></p><i></i>
<br>
Those of us who do not protect the 'us' and are not trained to do so or even have any idea of what is involved cannot begin to imagine the responsibility of having such a situation arise and therefore are not fit to judge. We cannot talk of incompetence or error of judgement as unfortunately we rely on two sources of information; our dreadful media and their insistence that the public has "a right to know" giving them jurisdiction to print and sensationalise anything they chose and our malignant government who chose what snippets of information we should be allowed to feed upon. I eschewed television some ten years ago with this as a significant reason and rarely read a newspaper or believe what is written unless it is a stated subjective comment.<br>
<br>
Any of us ever had to make a split second life or death decision? Get it right and you are a hero, get it wrong and you are branded incompetent? Either way you have to live life on a mental edge and carry the images of your actions with you whatever the outcome. Blowing someones head off be it either to save life or as a mistake cannot be pleasant and I doubt that operative has had much self peace since...I doubt he would have had his actions been proven justified.<br>
<br>
Any of us live alone on a remote farm, repeatedly victim of those who believe they can take at will what we treasure and ignored by a distracted police force? How would we react, sane or slightly eccentric?<br>
<br>
Yes, regretable mistakes occur and there needs to be mechanisms in place to investigate such actions. A public forum of the uninitiated and uninformed is no place for such things as this is where high blood pressure, sanctimony, villification and mob rule develop.<br>
<br>
quote<br>
<br>
We've found a witch...may we burn her? <br>
How do you know she's a witch?<br>
Well...she looks like one.<br>
I'm not a witch; they dressed me up like this.<br>
Well...?<br>
OK, we did the hat...the hat and the nose, but she's definitely a witch.<br>
She turned me into a newt...I got better...<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the CPO resigning, his Mate at the top of the government has shown him a shining example of how to avoid this; remember the statement that "he took full responsibility for" the errors leading up to Iraq? I'm still waiting to see the manifest of that responsibility and since then 'we' have re-elected the grinning idiot! ...???<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Urban myths...
Welcome back Alun, good holiday?<br>
<br>
Oh and btw, bot spollock on.<br>
<br>
Julian<br>
<p>1978 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/704">Dolomite Sprint</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1972 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/754">Spitfire IV</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1968 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/705">GT6 II</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1973 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/755">Dolomite Sprint</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1980 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/864">Dolomite 1500HL</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
39 anorak points on the Nicholas scale<br>
</p><i></i>
<br>
Oh and btw, bot spollock on.<br>
<br>
Julian<br>
<p>1978 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/704">Dolomite Sprint</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1972 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/754">Spitfire IV</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1968 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/705">GT6 II</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1973 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/755">Dolomite Sprint</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
1980 <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.triumphowners.com/864">Dolomite 1500HL</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
39 anorak points on the Nicholas scale<br>
</p><i></i>
-
dollybird72
- Posts: 287
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:52 am
How mistakes are made.............(bit on the long side)
Why did an innocent Brazilian get shot several times in the head? Why did the police 'ignore' Tony Martin's reports of crime being committed?<br>
<br>
Having worked as a Law Enforcement Co-ordinator (providing the Law Enforcement agencies with data), as a support officer with uniformed officers for the 2nd largest force in the country and in current position for Correctional Education (Prisons); I have seen all too easily how mistakes are made.<br>
<br>
Starting with the first job (LEC): A colleague is called out by a police force as they have a report that a young child is at risk of serious injury/death. They have a phone number, they need an address, we are the service provider for that number. My colleague looks up the number, it is in Liverpool, she provides the client name and address details. The officers go round to the address, the person living there won't let the police in, stating there isn't a child there. The officers force entry into the property; they search it - no child. They ask the man's name, ask about his telephone service. They get back in touch with us; a different colleague speaks to them. The number was pending connection at that address but had belonged to another customer, at another address recently. My 1st colleague hadn't picked up on that, the man who had his door broken down has a mother who is a solicitor who then wants to sue whoever is responsible for damages and the fact that her son then has to move from his flat as everyone else in the block who heard the kafuffle now thinks he is a 'kiddie fiddler'. Who was at fault? The police? They were acting upon information given which they believed to be correct, they believed there was a child at risk at that property and what criminal is going to say "yes, I have a child in here"? The woman who gave out the information? She was on emergency call out, believed a life was at risk, has a child of her own and wants to give the police the information as quickly as possible. Her line manager for not ensuring she'd had adequate training? The company?<br>
<br>
In the 2nd role (working for the police): Plain clothed officers have to make a cash-switch for a kidnapping 'victim' (aka scum IMHO) who was taken as he owes money to a major drug baron and can't pay up. They are threatening to cut off bodily parts if they don't get the cash they want. The cash (many thousands) is put in place, other plain clothed officers have to trail the vehicle whose occupants have just collected the cash. The motorway is busy, it is an unmarked car that is following the target - they lose the target van, they radio to other officers but for some reason they don't spot the target van either. It is found abandoned somewhere later and as it was stolen they don't actually know who the drivers were. All the money was lost, never to be returned......... Even though the 'victim' was also a crook, the police had to uphold the law and do what they could to prevent loss of life. As it turned out, the victim was released unharmed.<br>
<br>
In my current role: 2 lads at a young offenders' institute are from rival gangs. Not only are they at the same institute, but the powers that be fail to mention to the Education Department that they are deadly enemies and they end up in the same cookery class. In their first class, one of the 2 lads takes a knife and coolly stabs the rival gang member. The teacher holds the stab wound victim who bled to death in their arms................<br>
<br>
As for crime not paying, tell that to the drugs dealers who are making £thousands a week pushing drugs. They get sent to prison, are taught a vocational skill so that when they are resettled back into the community, they can get a job paying £4 something an hour? How many of them do you think keep to the straight and narrow and how many do you think go back to dealing?<br>
<br>
I've seen crime from all aspects, I am not excusing the people who commit them, on the contrary, but for some, it is all they know. There has to be a better way forward, I don't know if tougher sentencing is the answer but our prisons are already overcrowded and new builds are going on all the time to accommodate the influx of prisoners.<br>
<br>
Yes, mistakes are made but if people are acting in good faith (like the officer who shot the young Brazilian man) then who are 'we' (press/public) to point the finger of blame? It is so easy to be armchair judge and jury. No, he shouldn't have been shot; it is the loss of a life as with the lad who was at Tony Martin's place. They didn't deserve to die and it is most regrettable. I doubt the officer who shot Mr Mendes is taking much comfort from the fact that he was under orders, from the fact that the target could have potentially blown up the tube and killed hundreds if not thousands of people - do the sums. The press has already come to their own conclusion; they have already given a 'guilty' verdict. Were I to be in Tony Martin's position, maybe I would have done the same - there is only so much one can take. Were the lads not there in the first place............<br>
<br>
It is such a pity that we don't hear about the sterling work that the police and other agencies do but it isn't scandalous or shocking so it doesn't make the headlines. This country is indeed in a sorry state generally, but it could be much worse. I thank God that I don't live in Iraq.<br>
<br>
Susie<br>
<br>
PS Definitely don't believe all the press reports; they are not privy to all the facts. Take the young women who were shot outside the hairdressers in Birmingham one New Year's Eve; again, they didn't deserve to die at all but they weren't quite the innocents that the press had made out............<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p206.ezboard.com/bthetriumphdolo ... ybird72</A> at: 20/3/06 12:16 pm<br></i>
<br>
Having worked as a Law Enforcement Co-ordinator (providing the Law Enforcement agencies with data), as a support officer with uniformed officers for the 2nd largest force in the country and in current position for Correctional Education (Prisons); I have seen all too easily how mistakes are made.<br>
<br>
Starting with the first job (LEC): A colleague is called out by a police force as they have a report that a young child is at risk of serious injury/death. They have a phone number, they need an address, we are the service provider for that number. My colleague looks up the number, it is in Liverpool, she provides the client name and address details. The officers go round to the address, the person living there won't let the police in, stating there isn't a child there. The officers force entry into the property; they search it - no child. They ask the man's name, ask about his telephone service. They get back in touch with us; a different colleague speaks to them. The number was pending connection at that address but had belonged to another customer, at another address recently. My 1st colleague hadn't picked up on that, the man who had his door broken down has a mother who is a solicitor who then wants to sue whoever is responsible for damages and the fact that her son then has to move from his flat as everyone else in the block who heard the kafuffle now thinks he is a 'kiddie fiddler'. Who was at fault? The police? They were acting upon information given which they believed to be correct, they believed there was a child at risk at that property and what criminal is going to say "yes, I have a child in here"? The woman who gave out the information? She was on emergency call out, believed a life was at risk, has a child of her own and wants to give the police the information as quickly as possible. Her line manager for not ensuring she'd had adequate training? The company?<br>
<br>
In the 2nd role (working for the police): Plain clothed officers have to make a cash-switch for a kidnapping 'victim' (aka scum IMHO) who was taken as he owes money to a major drug baron and can't pay up. They are threatening to cut off bodily parts if they don't get the cash they want. The cash (many thousands) is put in place, other plain clothed officers have to trail the vehicle whose occupants have just collected the cash. The motorway is busy, it is an unmarked car that is following the target - they lose the target van, they radio to other officers but for some reason they don't spot the target van either. It is found abandoned somewhere later and as it was stolen they don't actually know who the drivers were. All the money was lost, never to be returned......... Even though the 'victim' was also a crook, the police had to uphold the law and do what they could to prevent loss of life. As it turned out, the victim was released unharmed.<br>
<br>
In my current role: 2 lads at a young offenders' institute are from rival gangs. Not only are they at the same institute, but the powers that be fail to mention to the Education Department that they are deadly enemies and they end up in the same cookery class. In their first class, one of the 2 lads takes a knife and coolly stabs the rival gang member. The teacher holds the stab wound victim who bled to death in their arms................<br>
<br>
As for crime not paying, tell that to the drugs dealers who are making £thousands a week pushing drugs. They get sent to prison, are taught a vocational skill so that when they are resettled back into the community, they can get a job paying £4 something an hour? How many of them do you think keep to the straight and narrow and how many do you think go back to dealing?<br>
<br>
I've seen crime from all aspects, I am not excusing the people who commit them, on the contrary, but for some, it is all they know. There has to be a better way forward, I don't know if tougher sentencing is the answer but our prisons are already overcrowded and new builds are going on all the time to accommodate the influx of prisoners.<br>
<br>
Yes, mistakes are made but if people are acting in good faith (like the officer who shot the young Brazilian man) then who are 'we' (press/public) to point the finger of blame? It is so easy to be armchair judge and jury. No, he shouldn't have been shot; it is the loss of a life as with the lad who was at Tony Martin's place. They didn't deserve to die and it is most regrettable. I doubt the officer who shot Mr Mendes is taking much comfort from the fact that he was under orders, from the fact that the target could have potentially blown up the tube and killed hundreds if not thousands of people - do the sums. The press has already come to their own conclusion; they have already given a 'guilty' verdict. Were I to be in Tony Martin's position, maybe I would have done the same - there is only so much one can take. Were the lads not there in the first place............<br>
<br>
It is such a pity that we don't hear about the sterling work that the police and other agencies do but it isn't scandalous or shocking so it doesn't make the headlines. This country is indeed in a sorry state generally, but it could be much worse. I thank God that I don't live in Iraq.<br>
<br>
Susie<br>
<br>
PS Definitely don't believe all the press reports; they are not privy to all the facts. Take the young women who were shot outside the hairdressers in Birmingham one New Year's Eve; again, they didn't deserve to die at all but they weren't quite the innocents that the press had made out............<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p206.ezboard.com/bthetriumphdolo ... ybird72</A> at: 20/3/06 12:16 pm<br></i>
crime
i thought they shot for the throat to sever the spinal<br>
cord a trick they learnt from the israeli elite forces when dealing with sucide bombers <br>
<br>
<br>
i think it's more of sentencing the offenders corectly<br>
don't listen to these do gooders that prevail when they sentence these offenders <br>
and build as many prisons as are needed and life must mean life no crap about mitigating circumstances if a drunk driver kills a pedestrian he deserves a lengthy sentence not 6 years and out in three for being a good boy / girl etc... the sentence must be served to full term to keep this crap off our streets
<p></p><i></i>
cord a trick they learnt from the israeli elite forces when dealing with sucide bombers <br>
<br>
<br>
i think it's more of sentencing the offenders corectly<br>
don't listen to these do gooders that prevail when they sentence these offenders <br>
and build as many prisons as are needed and life must mean life no crap about mitigating circumstances if a drunk driver kills a pedestrian he deserves a lengthy sentence not 6 years and out in three for being a good boy / girl etc... the sentence must be served to full term to keep this crap off our streets
<p></p><i></i>
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