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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:06 am 
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Which is/are the correct parts catalogue/s covering the earlier Sprints? There seem to be several on eBay and it's not clear from listings which do or don't.

Graham

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The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:10 pm 
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RTC9006 MAY 1973

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1973 Mimosa Sprint
1973 Magenta TR6


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:47 pm 
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Thanks. Looks like it's something to keep an eye out for though.

Graham

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The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:29 pm 
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I have RTC 9006B Published Sept 75, covers series 1 cars VA 1 -15000 with some mention of series 2 cars VA15000>.

Probably a little more comprehensive on the earlier cars than the May 73 version. when that was published, only the first 2000 cars had been built, so a lot would be missing, all the auto trans data for example as auto was only offered after sept/oct 73.

Even the 75 published version has a lot of part numbers that are superceded in the all models catalogue of 76> RTC 9822. My own version of this (RTC9822CB) is probably the last ever published version dated Feb 1981 when the cars were already obsolete and out of production.

9822 covers ALL models from 1300 to Sprint but I find it useful to have both as a lot of series 1 specific parts don't get a mention in the later book, but conversely, a lot of numbers in the earlier book have been superceded in the late one and the early numbers mean nothing to people like Fitchetts/Rimmers etc.

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:52 am 
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There're issues about my car as it appears to be 2065th of the first 2000.
But what the colour info seems to show is that the "only black and mimosa spec" ran to chassis numbers 2100 or 2200 or so. Also the reference to the first 2000 being only black and mimosa is from BL public relations who had a limited history of truthfulness.

So, either they made more than 2000 in that batch of black and mimosa cars, e.g. to allow for production losses, export cars that didn't count to the 2000, or just because they could; or the numbers aren't sequential.

In anycase, thanks for the details Steve. I can keep more eyes out now.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:36 pm 
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Would there be any problems with this version available from Amazon:

Triumph Dolomite Range 1976 Parts Catalog (Official Parts Catalogue) (Official Parts Catalogue S.) Paperback – Illustrated, 1 Sept. 1995
by Brooklands Books Ltd (Author)

The pic of it shows RTC 9822CB on the cover.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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 Post subject: Yes.....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:06 pm 
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It is 1976 ONWARDS,
so earlier specific information is not present,
for instance, the only yellow exterior paint is Inca





Ian

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 Post subject: Re: Yes.....
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:28 pm 
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Quote:
It is 1976 ONWARDS,
so earlier specific information is not present,
for instance, the only yellow exterior paint is Inca

Ian
It's more for the pictures of how it all fits together that I want it. There seems to be some deprecation of the Brooklands reprints, but I don't know why.

The issue of yellow before 76 and after the first 2000 (ish) cars is an interesting one.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:41 pm 
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Quote:
There're issues about my car as it appears to be 2065th of the first 2000.
But what the colour info seems to show is that the "only black and mimosa spec" ran to chassis numbers 2100 or 2200 or so. Also the reference to the first 2000 being only black and mimosa is from BL public relations who had a limited history of truthfulness.

So, either they made more than 2000 in that batch of black and mimosa cars, e.g. to allow for production losses, export cars that didn't count to the 2000, or just because they could; or the numbers aren't sequential.

In anycase, thanks for the details Steve. I can keep more eyes out now.

Graham
The "legend " is that the the first 2000 cars were all Mimosa/black and that ALL of these cars were built prior to the car's June 73 launch date. This latter part of the legend being largely substantiated by Heritage certified build dates on most of the surviving pre VA2000 cars. This was done as an experiment to see if the thing would sell, it was initially offered as a limited edition sub model. Since the demand proved substantial and the lions share of the first 2000 cars sold quickly, the decision was made to continue production indefinitely. However, based on feedback recieved from buyers (and potential buyers) the colour palette and trim options were expanded for post VA2000 cars. But that doesn't mean that NO further Mimosa cars were built, on the contrary, it was still a popular choice, even once the range of colours available was expanded.

I won't say that your scenario of the first 2000 cars actually being more like 2200 is wrong, it's just not the version i've most consistently heard.

What I will say is that the handful (or less) of pre VA2000 cars i've seen that AREN'T Mimosa, are known to have either been reshelled or resprayed. For VA2000 - VA2200, I don't have enough data or evidence at hand to prove or disprove your scenario. Perhaps anyone else who has a car in that rather restrictive comm number range could let us know what colour theirs is? Do you have an Heritage cert for your car, and if so, what's the build date? This could be a clue!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:13 pm 
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Build date is 11 July - which seems inordinately precise.

I was going off Mike Barker and other's data on colours, from when I last got an update some years ago. That small (52) set of M reg cars has only yellow ones (except 1 presumed respray - EFH 442M) below 2100 (22 cars identified), presumably all mimosa. Above 2200 there are only 2 other yellow cars in the set, one in the 4000s (YOY 60M) and one in the 6000s (TWR 796M). I don't know if these might also also re-sprays/re-shells, and it isn't specific that they were mimosa.

That hardly suggests that outside the first 2100, yellow was that popular (< 7%).

It really needs a much bigger data set to draw any real conclusions though.

However, I have no info after the 7000s and don't know when Inca became the standard yellow - I assumed 1976.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:31 pm 
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I think the issue about the first 2000 being a market test and a decision to continue after that is hokum, as they absolutely had to build 5000 in 12 months to get Group 1 homologation to use the car in the BTCC - which was planned well before June 1973. They did better than that and built 5000 by December 73 to get approval on 1 Jan 1974 (the French worked new years day?).

I suspect the intent to homologate the Sprint in Group 1 was planned when it was announced that the BTCC would be a Group 1 competition from 1974 and someone worked out that the Escort RS1800 couldn't get Group 1 homologation. It's certainly claimed Coventry Climax were called in to develop the head specifically for motorsport use. However, the order could be different, i.e. the BTCC moved to Group 1 to exclude the Escort - not everybody loves Ford.

It may be that there was an explicit decision made to continue production after the first 5000. I'm not clear on the rules for continued homologation after 1974 - I think it was some number of years after production fell below some fraction of 5000, but I would have to go and read a document (badly) translated from the French to find out.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:47 pm 
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Quote:
Build date is 11 July - which seems inordinately precise.

I was going off Mike Barker and other's data on colours, from when I last got an update some years ago. That small (52) set of M reg cars has only yellow ones (except 1 presumed respray - EFH 442M) below 2100 (22 cars identified), presumably all mimosa. Above 2200 there are only 2 other yellow cars in the set, one in the 4000s (YOY 60M) and one in the 6000s (TWR 796M). I don't know if these might also also re-sprays/re-shells, and it isn't specific that they were mimosa.

That hardly suggests that outside the first 2100, yellow was that popular (< 7%).

It really needs a much bigger data set to draw any real conclusions though.

However, I have no info after the 7000s and don't know when Inca became the standard yellow - I assumed 1976.

Graham
In all honesty, we don't have enough survivors for a statistical universe! last I checked there are something like 519 Sprints still in circulation (including some 60 auto models all of which, by definition are post VA2000) out of a total production figure around 24000. Working out percentages of survivors in any particlar colour is pretty fruitless. Especially after 40+ years of resprays and reshells!

Series 1 is defined as up to VA15000 though in reality only less than 11000 cars made it off the line, the P reg white auto that Alun and I are finishing for sale is VA 10261 DLA, making it the newest series 1 car i've laid eyes on by a fair margin.

But it's interesting to note that all Australian market Sprints were also Mimosa and that these seem to be (from available data on survivors) all series 2 cars in the 15000-20000 comm range. As far as I can tell, Mimosa was used on series 1 and 2 cars and the change to Inca happened with the 76 model range rationalisation which also brought the series 3 car into production (VA20000>)

As near as I can tell, 73 is the ONLY year when Sprint production exceeded 5000 units, but my thinking is that, since Triumph didn't use the series definitions (A Sprint was a Sprint, the series definitions are an unofficial later means of identifying updates etc) they didn't need to re-homologate it.

I very much doubt that the Sprint was originally designed and destined to be a GP1 racer. Triumphs competition department was far too cash starved for them to build 5000 cars just to homologate it, They couldn't even afford to build the 2 door version that would have been much lighter and stiffer for competition work. Shame that!

I still hold to the "test the water with the first 2000 cars" theory. Once they sold those, it obviously paid to knock out the next 3000 to homologate it quickly, "win on Sunday sell on Monday" was and still is a real concept! But they needed actual physical sales to justify the competition program, not the other way round!

Steve

Not all heritage certs include a build date (some, like my Toledo, only have a date of dispatch from the factory) but where it's included it will always be accurate to a single day. But IIRC correctly, 11th July puts your build date after launch which makes your car NOT one of the first 2000 (even if there WERE 2100 of them) Unless I got the launch date wrong, stranger things have happened!

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:00 pm 
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I know one guy who has at least 1 Sprint auto in pretty good unrestored condition,an Australian Sprint,and a few more.I suspect there are plenty more people like him out there,so I think there will be more than 500 odd Sprints still surviving,BTW my Sprint is one of the first 2000,and as a club member I think the club has the chassis number etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:24 am 
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Quote:

The "legend " is that the the first 2000 cars were all Mimosa/black and that ALL of these cars were built prior to the car's June 73 launch date.

Steve
Legend or myth? I know of no other definition than the letter from PR saying that the first 2000 will be finished in mimosa and black. Hence, I think this relationship between the completion of the first batch (of however many) and the launch date is purely anecdotal.

All I can go on is the evidence:

1. The development in the early 70s of the head by Coventry Climax for Spen King. Keith Adams, in the AROnLine article on Project Ajax says specifically that the engine was developed to "compete more effectively in motor sport".
It's also true it continued being developed and improved up to the final cancelation of the planned mass market SD2, in early 1976. But I think that was intended to build on the existing engine and take advantage of it. It may have been used in arguing the need for it's initial development by Coventy Climax. However, there are well known shortcomings in that development. The reduced cost version of the slant-4, which, according to David Knowles, was supposed to fix problems with the head studs, seems to have died in about September 1975 when SD2 became part of TM1, which itself died in early 1976.
The electronic fuel injection was supposed to be part of the solution to meeting the US emissions legislation changes for 1976. It seems there was a real expectation in BLMC that SD2 could break into the US sub-compact market. Also, there were performance issues with the US spec 8-valve TR7 that the 16-valve PI engine should have fixed; though the use of the Rover, nee Buick, V8 was the solution chosen in the end (presumably before 1977).
It's true that Knowles has the development of the electronic fuel injection system for the 16-valve slant-4 going on to sometime during the 17-week strike BL management started at Speke in November 1977. According to Dr Brian Marren at Liverpool U, that was to give an excuse to close Speke rather than one of the core plants in the midlands. However, that's because Knowles was trying to explain the production of the 61 TR7 Sprints in 1977 – which Bill Piggott described as an enigma, with the TR8 so close to production in 1977. However the building of TR7 Sprints in 1977 is much better explained by the TR8 only nearly being ready and the FIA banning optional multivalve heads approved under the old 100-off rule, effective from the end of 1977. Graham Robson suggests that Davenport's team had no idea when the TR7V8, which needed the TR8's homologation, would be available to them till it was approved. There's another story in how that happened when only 150 of the 400 FHC TR8s needed were built. But the 16-valve TR7 was used several times in 1978 and that was only possible through the second approval of the head and that was only possible because at least 54 TR7 Sprints were built – inc. at least 4 for national type approval, and plus at least 4 for car shows.
So I think the injection system was cancelled with SD2/TM1 with the effects of BLMC going bankrupt in 1974 and the resulting £3 billion rescue plan in the Ryder Report of 1975.

2. The production of 5,446 Dolomite Sprints in 1973. The figure of 5000 never being achieved again, and production tapering off completely in the next 5 or 6 years.

3. The homologation of the Dolomite Sprint on 2 Jan 1974 (so they didn't work new years day) in homologation form number 5542. That form should say when the 5000 needed were built, but doesn't have the space filled in. The lead time between the number needed being made and the approval of the Group-3 TR7 was from February to October in 1975. That process had to be expedited with the Dolomite, if there were only 446 cars built between the requirement being met and approval given, and that may explain the blank where the completion date should go. However, there must still have been a lead time between filing the papers with the RAC/FIA/CSI and the approval being granted, if less than 7 months.

4. The change in the BTCC to a Group-1 competition from 1974 on, effectively excluding the RS1800, with its G version of the BDA, a 2Ltr, alloy block, twin-cam, 16-valve, Cosworth development of the Kent engine.
I haven't got a date for when that change to the BTCC was announced, but I'd be shocked if it was any later than 1972.

5. The successes of the Dolomite Sprint in said BTCC in 1974-6.
There has to be support for that team that can't have just been thrown together on a whim.
The Group-2 Dolomite Sprint also had some successes in rally sport, and there were some successes for the Group-4, 16-valve TR7. But they competed against the RS1800 and only really came close. Mind you, that they even came close is a real accolade in my opinion; given the relatively small development work from a Group-1 engine, and the comparatively small development of that from a mass production engine.

Now it's possible that all that is a sequence of coincidences. I'm not a conspiracy theorist myself (I think they are all in it together). However, I don't accept that level of coincidence, and I think it's clear evidence of planning. I reckon Spen King and his chain of command are deeply involved in that, but have no details.

As to the competition department having to fund production of 5000 Dolomite Sprints in 1973: Why would that fall to them? At worst, BLMC would need an additional funding stream for the extra costs of producing the 5000 odd 16-valve engine over the 1850s. I don't know what they were, but I've read the 16-valve was a couple of hundred pounds more expensive than the O-series, and that the 1850 weren't that cheap. So we are talking something like £50,000 extra in a tens of millions of pound programme.

That BL continued production of the 16-valve engine till 1979 is interesting. I think it has to do with the issues in setting up to build 5000 in one year and the losses and write-offs in shutting that production capacity down with a bang. I think the bean counters would want those cost properly amortized, e.g. over 5 years, to get the best write-off returns. That's another issue in why the story that they built 2000 and then saw how they sold before continuing is a blatant myth.
Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:51 pm 
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This just to show that BL building the first 5000 Dolomite Sprints to gain Group-1 homologation and not telling anybody about that would not be a one off thing:

Between February and early July of 1977, BL made some 58 16-valve TR7 Sprints - they made another 3 upto Oct, all for specific cars shows. This followed the FIA announcing a ban on modifications approved under Article 260 of the 1975 Appendix J, section bb of which allowed the use of alternative heads (and gearboxes, etc.) on making 100 kits of spares available for sale. This will have included the 16-valve Group-4 variant of the TR7 approved in Oct. 1975, at which time BL had produced no 16-valve TR7s with overdrive. However, as well as deleting that 100-off rule, the FIA announced that modifications already approved could continue to be used till the end of 1977. Graham Robson mentions the ban on alternative heads "effective from the end of 1977" in several of his books on various rally cars, and details it affecting Toyota, Lancia, Ford, and Vauxhall (Toyota went back to an uncompetitive 8-valve, the Stratos went back to a 12-valve V6, Vauxhall, who had found a loophole in the 1976 rules to use a head on the Chevette HS that had been approved for another car, got banned for continuing to use it into 1978, Ford made another 50 or so, 2Ltr, BDG engined, RS1800s and re-homologated it as the Group-4 Escort RS by some less than entirely obvious means. Then, early in 1978, the 16-valve head was approved for the Group-4 TR7 a second time, and rallied till the TR8 was available from April 1978.
Without the 100-off rule the FIA then required production of homologation specials, i.e. identical cars with the modification, and there's plenty of evidence that at the time, the number needed for such modifications and variants was 50. Also from 1978, the FIA needed rally cars to have National Type Approval and that took, probably, another 4. Also 1 of the earlier cars was built for another car show. That leaves only 3 to be accounted for.
The TR7 Sprints are also specifically linked to some homologation process by a set of pictures in the BMM archives, dated 1 Nov. 1977. This can only be for a Group-4 variant, because there were only ever enough for that, and the cars being transferred to a "Selling Dealer" or exported in the days after the pictures were taken shows the model was already cancelled by then, and no more would be built for, e.g., a Group-3 16-valve TR7. Also, the only Group-4 variant approval for the 16-valve head is the only one the car in these TR7 Sprint Homologation pictures could apply to.
That the TR7 Sprints were homologation specials is also supported by Bill Piggott pointing out that it's surprising they were sold-off not scrapped when the 16-valve TR7 programme was cancelled, like the 25 O-series engined TR7s were in 1980. However, the FIA also required homologation specials to be "meant for the normal sale", so they could not be scrapped in that way.

I can give proper references for all of that and none of it is supposition.

I also think that BL must have known in 1975-6 that there was a significant risk that the TR8 would not be approved in time for the start of the 1978 season, as indeed happened. In which case they would have known that the 16-valve TR7 would have to fill in till the TR8 was available. And that meant that the head would have to be re-approved. That gave them about 15 months to get ready to start building them in Feb. 1977. However, there's also some evidence that the 16-valve version of the TR7 was cancelled in 1975 or 76 with SD2, as a result of the 1975 Ryder Report and it's plan to rescue BL from the bankruptcy of BLMC. Hence, not only were the TR7 Sprints used for the re-homologation of the head, they were built specifically for that.

BL did build about 150 FHC TR8s by 1 April 1978 (most, possibly all, before August 1977) when the FIA approved the TR8 for use in Group-4 (rallied as the TR7V8, but approved as the TR8). That may seem odd because the FIA required 400 cars for a new Group-4 approval (reduced from 500 in 1976). However, after production moved to Canley following the long strike at Speke, another 250 FHC TR8s were built, bringing the total to at least very close to the 400 required. Neil Eason-Gibson, when he was director of motorsport at the RAC, described that process to me as "approval on intent to manufacture", and it's documented as being used with the Vauxhall HS, approved just before the TR8 was.
So, there being almost exactly the 400 FHC TR8s needed and there being an explanation for why only some of them were built after its approval makes it clear these cars were also built specifically as homologation specials.

But neither the TR7 Sprints nor the FHC TR8s were ever advertised as homologation specials. That shows that, unlike Ford, Vauxhall, Lancia, Talbot, etc., BL were very much in the habit of not advertising homologation specials as such.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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