The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

It's a symptom of having worked away for 18 months I know, but I find it literally unbelievable that this thread is now over a year old.

I have some updates. And a further question that arises.

The rattle was the non return valve - fixed a while back and all too easy. That problem = solved.

And just a few weeks ago I finally replaced the AR bar bushes that I've had on a shelf for ages. I also tightened up the sub frame mounts just a little.

Unfortunately not all of the clunks and noises have gone. Over (relatively) recent time the engine mounts, sub-frame mounts and AR bushes have been replaced. I got a custom downpipe made to get around the sub frame properly, once and for all. And of course the chatter from the non return valve is gone.

But what I still have is a sort of clunky noise from the front suspension. What I have realised is that it doesn't happen in a straight line nor when taking a gentle right bend but it is quite definitely specifically there when taking a sweeping left bend - these bends I'm talking about are 50kmh type gentle chicanery on a suburban minor road nearby. So it seems like the noise is provoked when the right hand front suspension - or wheel bearing???? - are more loaded up.

Any thoughts?

thks

/bump

I have Gaz shocks too and I get a light "pattering" when driving slow. One of the fronts was worse than others, but as a temp fix, wind the damper in a good few clicks to stiffen it and see how that feels. I can simulate it by pressing on the top of the wing really gently to get a click. I believe its the valve behind the adjusting screw which is a ball baring that when not loaded much can cause the noise. I realise yours sounds a bit heavier so may not be related but maybe worth knowing.
When you say on left turns you get the clonk, is that during the turn or at point of turning?. If during the turn is it after the wheel hits a small bump?. Just thinking of tie rod bushes at the front. The end of the bar can be worn where it goes through the subframe hole and cause the noise too.

Tony

_________________
Membership 2014047

Tony could be right. The front tie bars can be prone to wearing. The bushes might also be worn. What are the front subframe bushes like. I've had the entire front end of my 1850 rebushed (except for the front ARB) with Super Flex bushes. These are the best bushes and aren't mush harder than rubber so you get the best of everything. Does Chris Witor still give a discount to TDC members for these bushes?

_________________
Toledo Man

West Yorkshire Area Organiser & forum moderator
Meetings take place on the first Wednesday of the month at 8.00pm at The Old Brickworks, Wakefield Road, Drighlington, Bradford, BD11 1EA

1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - Now for sale)
2003 Volvo XC90 D5 SE (PX53 OVZ - The daily driver)
2009 Mercedes-Benz W204 C200 CDI Sport (BJ58 NCV - The 2nd car)
1991 Toyota Celica GT (J481 ONB - another project car)
Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

Check my blog at http://triumphtoledo.blogspot.com
My YouTube Channel with a bit of Dolomite content.

"There is only one way to avoid criticsm: Do nothing, say nothing and BE nothing." Aristotle

tony G - depends on what you mean by a light pattering? I don't think it's that. I don't get any noises when pressing on top of the wing either.

In terms of tie rod bushes I'm pretty sure I replaced them from memory. The car doesn't do many miles at all either so its not like its suffering from wear and tear. I do recall that the shape of the tie rod where it went through the sub frame was a worn shape though. But I would have assumed the bushes dealt with that issue?

The noise on turning is hard to explain. A gradual bend at 30mph or so on sweeping residential street and then as you transition into that and the weight shifts to one side of the car slightly due to the turn that is when you get the noise. And not really there when taking right bend but when taking left hence assuming its when the right hand front suspension is slightly more loaded.

Toledo man - per above pretty sure I did these and with superflex as well. But again tie bar shape where it goes through subframe I feel is more oval (worn depression on one side more accurately from memory)
Would that cause issues or ought the bushes be able to deal with that?

thks

That's what I'm replacing mine with, didn't realise they weren't much harder than rubber, nice one - I was a bit concerned but no other option and that's what I was advised to use. It's the original engine mounts I have and one looks like it's just starting to part so I'm concerned the superflex may finish it off, before proper mounts are available.

_________________
Triumph Dolomite Sprint,RNK 957W

Built 26/6/1980 (one of the last built), Auto, Porcelain White - Genuine Mileage 52,820 (warranted).

Only 3 previous owners, (2 within the same family).

Supplied by Lavender Hill Garage Ltd, Enfield, London, by garage owner Jimmy Metcalfe on 30th September 1980 to Geoffery Robinson, Enfield.

Club Membership No: 2017092

So here's a question

If I did decide I might as well try replacing the front tie bars / drag struts just to see if it would make a difference...………….where would I get them from?

Rimmers show it as a superseded part and the link to the replacement part takes you to a 404 error. I couldn't find any elsewhere on the web either.

Thoughts?

cheers

Rob MacGregor ( at Sprintspeed?)had a few old used tie bars off me last year, apparently he rebuilds and uprates them. I think he makes them adjustable too!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

OK.

I have some Rob MacGregor adjustable tie bars now and they are painted and ready to fit.

But ahead of that I took the car to a local Triumph specialist today. The twin issues being "the noise" and lack of steering caster.

His views :
1. steering awful and needs replacement rack; it has a quick rack from memory which won't have suffered many miles but I really wonder whether it was ever right tbh
2. believes noise comes from engine vibrating against edge of oil pump assy where it touches the rack mount
3. suspicious of the rack mount arrangement; I have solid rack mounts both sides that probably date back to Sprintspares
4. speculation whether engine mounts the right way up and talked about drilling plate the mount fits to on drivers side so that side of the engine is lifted up....
5. recommends replacing split propshaft as they are notoriously crap apparently. To be fair the only reason he checked this under the car was his pre-visit email discussion where he was thinking of the prop shaft having had the issue on other cars
6. car otherwise great )

One thing I forgot to fully mention at the time was that the noise was at one point horrendous in the past due to the knocking of oil pump to rack mount but I thought I fixed this when I replaced the engine mounts. So I'm wondering if his basis was seeing a rubbed face on the filter assy whether he was really basing his decision on that issue from the past rather than the ongoing situation.

The noises the car emits go away at speed and you don't get them making say a 40mph sweeping right bend. But they are worse at take-off and when taking a 40mph left bend - in other words when mass is transferred to the right side and I had been thinking some type of issue loading the drivers side suspension. But it could be a combination of effects causing the engine to still impact the oil pump when the drivers side is more loaded?

The rack mounts I have are simple half circle alloy shapes that clamp everything down using the U bolt. I don't recall this being an issue in the long distant past but would still agree it might be now. Has anybody else experienced this?

Pretty sure there was some discussion on here when I sourced new engine mounts and I supposedly got new old stock. And I agonised over getting them the right way up. But did I? How would I be able to tell?
And if I wanted to swap round just the drivers side one is that possible or is it a case of them being sort of handed and thus needing to swap sides as well to achieve this?

Regarding the rack again I recall that the standard mounts are more compact i.e. the U bolt sits lower with these mounts compared to the solid rack ones. Thoughts?

The plan for now is to swap the tie bars and get a new rack, retaining the solid mount on NS but replacing with std mount on OS and using poly bush available from Rimmers (either std which I assume is the yellow one or the red "performance" one). This will either fix the caster and heavy steering or it won't. I suspect it likely will. And in the process of changing the mounting arrangement we might see a fix to "the noise" in which case job finally done. If not then Triumph bloke can look harder.

And the propshaft will stay as is until it is causing a genuine problem. For now its like a wisdom tooth - no point in taking it out unless necessary IMO. Dentist looking for a new Porsche prob recommend differently though............

Any and all thoughts on the above very welcome !

cheers

What sort of Triumph 'specialist' recommends redrilling fixed points on the vehicle to resolve a problem???? That's simply attempting to remove a symptom rather than a cause!

Did you tell them it was a quickrack by any chance, before they recommended replacement?

Split propshafts are designed to avoid harmonic interference, and are not 'notoriously crap'

Have you got the small plate correctly installed under the rack mount?

_________________
BWJ
1966 Triumph 1300 Royal Blue
1966 Triumph 2000 Blue
1965 Triumph 2000 black and rust
1967 BSA B40wd green
2018 Jaguar E pace 2018
NOBODY expects the Canley Inquisition!

Having just removed the front sub frame and fully rebuilt/rebushed the front suspension on my Sprint I had a similar situation. Horrendous knocking on start up and occasionally out on the road. In my case it was worse when starting to reverse and round Left Hand bends. Found out the exhaust downpipe was coming into contact with the body near the bell housing area. In the process of the rebuild I also replaced the engine stabiliser bar. I assumed I could just tighten it up with the engine in its relaxed position. In then end I adjusted the stabiliser bar so the exhaust cleared the body work at all times, didn't take much adjustment, just a few turns on the nuts, as the exhaust was only just making contact, but it did sound horrendous.

Is there any chance when you changed the engine mounts etc. you disturbed the stabiliser bar and it just needs adjusting to stop what ever it is making contact?

Roger

_________________
1975 Sprint Man O/D in Honeysuckle Yellow
1971 Stag Auto White

Too many cars, too little time!

The metal mounting PLATES for the engine mounts are both handed and only fit one way up, this is with the small half moon cut out to the front and top. The rubber mounts are not so discriminating, they are both the same and go either way up.

Get the metal mounts wrong and you WILL have problems with engine location! You wouldn't be the first by a long way!

And, as Roger says, check the stabiliser bar too.

I've fitted several sets of those "Sprintspares" type solid rack mounts to both slant and OHV engined cars, as well as my hybrid Vauxhall powered models and so far, have not run into difficulties with them. Though if the o/s engine mount on a slant is weak contact with the rack mount is easier with the thicker, solid mount. What you are proposing with a solid n/s mount and a Poly o/s one in a standard mount is a well known and accepted way of doing things. The general opinion is that it gives the best of both worlds, though, as I said, i've had no issues using 2 solid ones.

Using the Rob macG adjustable tie bars will help you set for more caster, which may also help with the lousy steering. I wouldn't be TOO ready to condemn the rack until everything else is right. It's barely possible to get a quick rack rebuilt over here and that only because one of the specialists, (Maybe Rob, Ken Clark, or Jigsaw racing) have run off a batch of new pinions. The bad news is that the pinion alone is around £250! The good news is that, to me, you don't really NEED a quick rack on a road car and the club do a well made exchange refurbished standard rack for around half that much. Worthy of note, is that the ONLY part that makes a "quick rack" quick, is the pinion itself, all other parts are the same as on the standard rack. If your "quick" pinion is OK, the rack can be rebuilt, or your pinion can be built into another good rack to make a quick rack.

Also worth checking, on the "lousy steering" front, is the upper intermediate UJ in the column, a partial seizure in this from standing too long can make driving an unpleasant experience, to say the least! Doubt it will cause the knock, though there's a possibility of run out caused by the seizure letting the intermediate column touch the chassis leg in certain positions of it's rotation. This can also occur if the rack is not quite central on the subframe, easy to do with this type of solid mount.

As Alun says, ther's no big problem with the split prop. The only thing you have is an alignment issue with the centre bearing letting a zero angle happen between the gearbox mainshaft (or O/D output shaft) and the front section of the prop which is undesireable from a vibration/resonance point of view. The factory discovered this (Sprint only) and fixed it in production by offsetting one side tag on the centre bearing BELOW the body mount plate. Crude but effective! But it LOOKS wrong when you see it and some mechanics who don't know better will refit a prop in the logical, symetrical, but incorrect way and thereby introduce a problem that wasn't there before! Worth checking at least!

That's my thoughts for now, i'll come back if anything else occurs to me!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

The quick rack pinion is a fwd pinion; our reconditioner can make them or source a fwd rack and swap the track rods for the shorter Dolomite ones.

Thanks all.

xvivalve - agree re removing symptom rather than cause. Ridiculous. But this workshop seems to have a good rep and remember I live in Perth Western Australia so choices are a little limited. I think there might be three places around here at all and I tried another one when we arrived years back and was not so impressed. This lot have a good rep it seems so I will give them a go. That said that particular comment was not well received....
And re propshafts he has had experience of them being worn and causing a lot of vibration noise. He reckons that here most people have had them replaced. Not that there were ever a lot of Sprints in Australia in the first place. But he also said mine was the best he'd ever seen so whatever. It isn't what's causing the noise and aint broke so won't be getting any attention

Triumph1300 - small plate under rack. Were these both sides or NS only. Its definitely on NS. I suspect not on OS

Marshman - yes, well this whole thing has been a long journey for me trying to fix it myself. There is no question the earlier sports downpipe was shaped around the subframe when the car was rebuilt to address similar issues. And it did. But over time that problem resurfaced. Maybe it was the engine mounts before replacement I don't know. But a while back I took the car into an exhaust shop and paid for a custom downpipe to fix this. It better have done so....... but something else to re-check thanks. That said fairly certain noise comes from OS not NS. But... it is worse or indeed occurs when you take a left bend and not right.
Engine stabiliser bar is a good one though. At some point in the engine mount process that was either replaced or at least removed and refitted I can't remember. If you have any more details on this including perhaps measurement of spacing that you fixed with stabiliser bar now that it is resolved (ie current clearance pipe to relevant bit of bodywork) then that might be useful

Carledo - I will check mount plates. But 99.99% certain I went through all this at the time and they will be correct. I knew they were handed. But I also thought the rubber mounts were as well - is that not the case? I suspect the whole engine mount status is fine but will check over the weekend.
Overall I'd prefer to just stick with the solid mounts but a) sick of this ongoing ongoing ongoing saga and so anything that eliminates possible issues is good to go b) bet I wouldnt notice the difference anyway!
The rack is a problem because if replaced it looks like recon only and then of course shipping to Oz and the exchange surcharge is a $$$ disaster. Triumph guy reckons he has a decent enough s/h one. I'll keep the old rack for inspection and recon here if I end up going down this route
Car has replacement UJs in steering column connection. I do remember it was a bugger to fit because the spline end seemed too long. Triumph guy - lets call them Markich Motors for it is they - wondered whether the stiff steering was not being helped by that spline end rubbing or indeed the clamping nut possibly just touching the bodywork. I'll be checking that over the weekend though.

My plan now is to :
- check centring of rack by comparing rack end plate to solid mount distance each side. It seems logical these distances should match. I'm thinking if rack was too far to OS then UJ column parts might be in less good alignment.
- check plates under rack
- check engine mount plate orientation
- jack car up and see if any part of column UJs are actually binding lock to lock
- examine clearances of exhaust and look at stabiliser bar accordingly. However I would think stabiliser bar should be just that - it shouldn't be in tension keeping the engine over to one side really

And then I'll report back

Appreciate all the thoughts. Any more welcome always, this forum is just great for this stuff especially if you are remote from a critical mass of help as I am.

cheers