The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

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 Post subject: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:11 am 
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Location: The rhubarb triangle, Yorkshire
Hi all,

Has anyone ever replaced a 1300 flywheel with one from a 1500 please? If so, are they the same pdc for the crank bolts and dowel or did they need modifying?

Reason I'm asking (it goes back to my wanted add for calipers) is that the clutch on my 1300 looks like it is on the cusp of the change from 10 to 20 spline gearbox mainshaft, the clutch plate is 6 1/2", basically a 13/60 Herald clutch with a 20 spline driven plate. To get a new clutch kit for the 1300 is double that that I would pay for a 7 1/4" 1500 kit and the later are more readily available and I was thinking changing the flywheel is a cheaper alternative with easier to source parts.

Why the need for a clutch change apart from the obvious. Gear change has been getting harder, snatching and juuddering. It turned out the cowboy I got the car off looks like he changed the clutch just before I got it. He put the driven plate in back to front, then smeared the gearbox spline with 'Copperlease' (now all over the clutch cover). Result, shot gearbox and clutch. I'm dreading taking the engine apart!

Thanks in anticipation.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:36 am 
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The first thing to be aware of is the 1500 Dolly has a different starter motor, which is more expensive and harder to source. So to get any cost benefits you would want the flywheel from a 1500 Spitfire.

From what I can see the bolts from the 1500 flywheel are bigger, so you would need to either drill and tap your crank, or sleeve the bolts.

So it can be done, but I am not sure how much it is really going to save you.


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 Post subject: Firstly...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Location: Caithness, Scotland
I should point out that I know nothing about the ohv variants
but reading your post Steve makes me wonder if a 1500 flywheel is heavier?

If it is, then I personally would be reluctant to change because I would expect the drivability
of the car to be adversely affected?


Anyhow, I suggest you contact Jod Clark by PM on this forum, his knowledge of ohvs is very extensive.




Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Location: The rhubarb triangle, Yorkshire
Thanks for the replies and advice.

Looks like I have a gearbox to rebuild. Took the bellhousing off today and the mainshaft front circlip WAS NOT in its groove. The drain plug was covered in fragments of swarf and the oil was golden. Hope I never come across the b****** I got the car from again.

I've done some cross-checking of part numbers with current parts suppliers and as I thought, the 1300 Dolomites (and Toledoes) were fitted with a Herald 13/60 clutch, just using a 20 spline driven plate instead of the 10 spline.

I have a few (6) Herald gearboxes so I intend to check the teeth/profile of mainshaft gear cluster (the bit you pull forward out of the box, not the whole shaft) compared it to the Dolomite box, if they are the same I may re-built the box with a Herald mainshaft so that I can use a 10 spline 6 1/2" driven plate. Or, I might just fit a 3 rail Herald box in it's place.

Just pleased I didn't trust fitment of clutch kits for 1300 Dolomites on the net or I could have had a 7 1/4" kit spare

Thanks again.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Sorry to hear about your problems, I had similar problems with a duff Sprint engine for a dodgy seller, so I feel your pain.

Is it a non-overdrive box? I only ask, because the non-overdrive boxes are relatively plentiful and much cheaper than the overdrive ones. Might be quicker and easier just to source an entirely new box.


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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:34 am 
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Location: The rhubarb triangle, Yorkshire
My box is non-O/D, I managed to find a 1500 Spitfire box at a reasonable price. I have three 'D' type overdrives, one brand new, plus a spare Mk IV Spitfire O/D box, maybe (?) I may rebuilt the box I took as an O/D box and keep it as a spare?

The box I took out looks to be a 'professional' re-build, some professional, because it was nicely painted signal red all over, no doubt their trade mark.

Cheers,

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:26 am 
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Quote:
My box is non-O/D, I managed to find a 1500 Spitfire box at a reasonable price. I have three 'D' type overdrives, one brand new, plus a spare Mk IV Spitfire O/D box, maybe (?) I may rebuilt the box I took as an O/D box and keep it as a spare?

The box I took out looks to be a 'professional' re-build, some professional, because it was nicely painted signal red all over, no doubt their trade mark.

Cheers,

Steve
Dolomites normally had J-type overdrives. If your Spitfire box is meant for a D-type, in theory might be able to put the Spitfire box in your Dolomite, if you get a clutch with the correct spline count for it. I don't know if the ratios in a box for a 1500 and a 1300 are different.

The problem would be the propshaft, I know they can be made to fit a J-type overdrive, but you might need to get it modified for a D-type. Depends on the length.


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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Location: The rhubarb triangle, Yorkshire
Thanks cleverusername. I know Dolly's had 'J' types and the prop will be shorter.

Like most on this forum, over the decades I have 'played' with cars. My 13/60 Herald estate has a Mk IV Spitfire engine in (I picked up a brand new short block, cheap from a dealer clearout) It also has a 4 synchro Spitfire box with 'D' overdrive, I shortened and balanced the prop myself but I have a spare brand new non O/D Vitesse prop which is the correct length. Ratios aren't really an issue if you can accurately fix on the under or over recording of the speedo. Plus twin 125 Strombergs, wolf in sheep's clothing :twisted:

I've also just finished an engine swop on my daughter's 1960 Standard 10 Companion, the mains and big ends were starting to knock, for a Herald 13/60 engine and box (she wanted an O/D fitting but I said no). Block and box lengths are the same. Along with making a new loom (which I've done a drawing for).

I was tempted to put a Mk IV 4 synchro box in my Dolly, I have a spare but the rear half of the mainshaft is for an O/D box so I would have had to put an O/D in.

All this has made me realise I MUST WRITE THINGS DOWN, then they can go with, and be part of the history of the cars so that others don't have problems in the future!

Thanks again everyone, I've learned a lot over the past couple of days, especially with RobSun's thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Firstly...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Quote:
I should point out that I know nothing about the ohv variants
but reading your post Steve makes me wonder if a 1500 flywheel is heavier?

If it is, then I personally would be reluctant to change because I would expect the drivability
of the car to be adversely affected?


Anyhow, I suggest you contact Jod Clark by PM on this forum, his knowledge of ohvs is very extensive.


Ian.
Thank you Ian.

Strangely, 1300 flywheel is marginally heavier that the 1500 flywheel, but 1300 (6.5") clutch is (generally) a bit lighter than the 1500 (7.25") clutch, so when its all fitted-up there's almost no difference. The flywheel from a 1500 Spitfire or MG Midget is what you need - if you have the 21 spline clutch that is, diameter is flywheel dependent obviously - or get one from a 1500 Dolly and fit a Spitfire / Midget ring gear to it. Its not difficult. I have NEVER encountered any crankshaft bolt size / spacing difference between 1500 and 1300 flywheels on the large bearing journal engines, but the parts are available to adapt it if you do run into problems. Definitely worth upgrading to the 1500 flywheel and clutch in any 1300, the small clutch doesn't last long in a car with a Dolly's weight behind it.

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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Location: The rhubarb triangle, Yorkshire
Thanks for the reply Jod. I will put the parts on my shopping list for the future.

Another option I was thinking of was getting a 7 1/4" clutch and using the cover to mark, drill and tap new bolt holes in my flywheel, I have a large centre lathe to get the new holes at the correct diameter.

Cheers,

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: flywheel upgrade
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Sound idea in theory, but the larger clutch is recessed into the flywheel, so not really an option without lots of machining.

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1995 Trusty Peugeot 306 XND, no turbine, 227K miles young.
1997 Trusty Peugeot 306 GLX TD, 90K miles and soon to ride again..
Alfa Romeo 147 1.9 JTD 150 Ti Lusso , no longer smoking.
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