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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:33 pm 
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The 1850 is leaking from the slot in the block so I'm assuming its the pump leaking, once the inlet manifold and housing is removed I recall reading elsewhere there is a method for getting the pump out, could someone enlighten me please.
(Go easy on me I'm usually an 13/1500 OHV boy)

Pic of car midpoint (light makes it look dull).....
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Undo left hand thread bolt on top of impeller. The bolt will either come out or the pump will unwind against the jackshaft and come out. If your lucky the brass cage will come out with it. If the bolt comes undone and the pump stays put you can either lever it out by using a large washer under the bolt and a pair of levers, I used a crowbar recently or you can try a slide hammer.
If the brass cage stays put again you can try a slide hammer or make up a puller,there must be some pictures on here somewhere.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:26 am 
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The late great Jon Tilson wrote a guide on this very subject. His words of wisdom have been posted in the "members only" section. I could post a sticky "how-to" thread on here like Ian did with his SU carb tuning guide. I think he did post a thread on this part of the forum before his untimely death. If I can find the thread, I can either bump it or make it a sticky.

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Meetings have been suspended until a suitable venue has been found.
1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - The rolling restoration)
2008 Citroën C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 HDi Exclusive (MA08 WCL - the workhorse)
1995 BMW 318i (M265 PNC - Project Bimmer, the weekend car)
2004 Vauxhall Corsa Design 16V (FE04 FKG - gone to a new home)
Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

Check my blog at http://triumphtoledo.blogspot.com

"There is only one way to avoid criticsm: do nothing, say nothing and be nothing." Aristotle


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:46 am 
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When I had to remove the pump on my 1850 it took a slide hammer to actually get it to come out. The bolt on the top of the impellor is left-hand threaded, so you need some sort of bracket that can screw in there to attach the slide hammer to. Rimmers sell one.

The brass cage remained in the block when the impellor came out and I had a hell of a job getting it out. Amazing how stuck it can be when you consider that it is only held in with two O-rings. I had to fabricate a sort of puller using some small bits of steel and a threaded bolt. Even then the steel bent before the cage finally released.

Don't want to have to do that job again in a hurry. Why they couldn't use a conventional water pump is one of those questions we will probably never know the answer to.

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(MGB GTV8, BMW Z3 2.2, and Dolomite 1850HL)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:11 pm 
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cheers for the replies. the LH bolt cam out on its on but is somewhat threaded, not sure how I assume it was put in like that so need to get another one. I'll have a go at getting the rest out after the chrimbo season.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Quote:
When I had to remove the pump on my 1850 it took a slide hammer to actually get it to come out. The bolt on the top of the impellor is left-hand threaded, so you need some sort of bracket that can screw in there to attach the slide hammer to. Rimmers sell one.

The brass cage remained in the block when the impellor came out and I had a hell of a job getting it out. Amazing how stuck it can be when you consider that it is only held in with two O-rings. I had to fabricate a sort of puller using some small bits of steel and a threaded bolt. Even then the steel bent before the cage finally released.

Don't want to have to do that job again in a hurry. Why they couldn't use a conventional water pump is one of those questions we will probably never know the answer to.
There is a mod you can use on the Stag,a Ford belt driven water pump,with a bit of playing about could probably be used in the 1850 as well

Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:27 am 
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Here are Jonners' words of wisdom:
Quote:
There is lots to go wrong with this jobie so here are a few caveats...

First is to make sure it is indeed the pump that's at fault...
This means you must see water coming out of the slot. Run car with air filter off and use a mirror to be sure...
Many is the leaky bypass tube thats caused a pump to be "fixed" before its due...

Remove inlet manifold...I use a 1/4 drive half inch socket on extension after cracking them loose with a long ring
cos they can be a tad inaccessible...but a lot better than a lot of moderns...! Also disconnect the various heater pipes and temp gauge sender You don't need to take off the throttle and choke cables cos you can carefully sit the manifold away to the left and still get access to the pump cover...

Pump cover off...remove three bolts and yank off...Problem 1 is it wont budge...ha! gotcha...

What I do is loosen it by tapping it gently radially. A few degrees back and forth will loosen it enough to get it off...

Now the impellor and left handed bolt are staring at you...

Big socket on nut...think its 3/4 AF and turn it as to tighten it up on a normal rh bolt...One of 2 things will happen...
The bolt will come out...or the whole pump will.

If the bolt comes out the pump is tight in the block so you need a slide hammer to get it out. Ive got one with a left handed bolt adaptor that screws in to the pump. You can use the M Mouse tools that Rimmers sell too. Avoid digging screwdrivers into the brass cage via the slot! All you do is damage the cage.

The pump may then all come out with cage and all or just the shaft, impellor and bearing bit leaving the cage in the block.
Wiggle the slide hammer under the cage...don't bash the drive cog...and bump it out...its only 2 O rings holding it in...

Okay now you need to recon the pump. To do this you will need a press or a decent vice at the best. Remove the impellor first, the old seal, thrower disc, oil seal and then you see the bearing and circlip. The impellor is sometimes tough to get off...the bearing and circlip will certainly be. I've used local firms to get these apart with a press. Be careful as the impellor can shatter if too much hammering is used...Press is much kinder.

Now comes a few important points on reassembly...

You should now have a bare shaft, cage, impellor and LH bolt. Everything esle will be replaced...

Examine the cog on the shaft carefully for wear or chips. Any damage and I'm afraid its eBay time....find a new one.
Also you want the impellor to be a nice tight fit on the top end of the shaft. Ive had some that are so worn that they go round. The splines must grip the impellor.
Have a look at the bottom face of the impellor where the seal bears on it. That face needs to be nice and smooth so it may need refacing at your friendly local machine shop....or source a new impellor....which isn't easy these days.

There are a few different top seal designs in circulation. I'll cover the 3 main ones....
1st your original...if you do find a NOS original seal by all means use it. This has a graphite ring that is sprung loaded against the under side of the impellor. This also has a rubberised outer bit which is an easy push fit into the brass cage.

Then we have the current commonly available seal which is similar except that the outer body is metal and is an interference fit in the cage. These need a press to fit into the cage...more of that later.

Finally the other common type I've seen has 1 superior (in theory) feature...it doesn't seal directly against the impellor.
It just has a rubber bit that the impellor sits on and has its own internal seal. Its sprung loaded to get a good fit to the impellor Its also quite a tight fit in the cage but a big socket and gentle tap will get it in.

The weakness with all these seals is that if you assemble the pump completely and have to use some form of impact...no matter how gentle...when refitting to the block you WILL damage the seal. I've shattered a graphite ring and rogered the internal seal type in my time and I was EXTREMELY careful to use the bare minimum of force to get the pump back in.

So I've adopted a different technique...

Its basically very simple...Only partially reassemble the pump. leaving the impellor and LH bolt til last.

To do this, first fit the bearing and pack it with grease. Ive never been convinced that the bearing gets lubricated by oil thrown up those spiral slots somehow...
Refit the circlip and put the shaft and bearing in the cage and drift it down as far as it will go. Then fit the oil seal so it sits close to the bearing and is also a firm fit in the cage. Then comes the water thrower disc, a small O ring and the top seal. If you have the new metal seal this will need to be fitted to the cage with a press as already mentioned.
Now fit the new O rings to the cage....there are 2 and its obvious which goes in which slot as the diameters are slightly different and its ready to go back in the engine block.

Alun would say at this point to replace the bush. I've never needed to as mine have all been in good condition but its not a bad idea. Getting the old one out will need a quantity of grease and a dowel the same diameter as your water pump shaft.
Put the grease down the hole and drive the dowel in....the grease will then force the bush up and out...sweet.
Fit your new bush by gently drifting it in and clear up the old grease.
Now fit the pump minus impellor to the block. You will feel the end of the shaft go in to the bush and the teeth mesh with the gears and you should be able to push it down far enough so that the shaft wont turn by hand as the gears mesh. At this point the cage will be a tight fit and probably wont push down by hand. At this point you can use a big socket as a drift for the cage. I used an 1+7/8" one that fits nicely on the top lip of the cage and ensures even pressure as you drift the cage in to place. the lip on the cage will then be a tight fit against the block.

The last touch for the pump is to refit the impellor and bolt. You can use the bolt to pull the impellor down on the shaft without needing any impact and damage to the seal. You will see the impellor sitting nice and low and clearly bearing on the seal. Remember its an LH thread and do it up to the specified torque...which I've forgotten.

Then its back to the old method of using feeler gauges to check end float for the cover. You use gaskets of the right thickness to ensure your pump cover has clearance with the top bolt. There are 3 sizes of gasket in most kits and i seem to standardise around 1 thick and 1 medium on the last few I've done...dunno why. I refit these gaskets with a smear of grease so that the cover can be removed again and preserve the gaskets if need be...Clean the cover off and use copper ease to ensure it comes off easily next time.

Tighten the cover evenly and then its refit the manifold and bypass tube, taking care with gaskets and O rings...especially the big one on the inlet manifold.

I've taken to filling the system through the water pump cover before the manifold goes on as a check that the pump seal is working. This isn't foolproof though as its not running and under pressure.

So manifold on and refill and and refit hoses and hopefully job is a good one...

Few extra details...If you drain the block from the drain plug in front of the starter, remember to refit it.

Make sure the hose clips are pointed so that you can give them all an extra tweak when the manifold is in place and its all warmed up and pressurised.
Well worth cleaning all the crud out of your hoses and rad while its all off...

Happy pumping...

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Toledo Man

West Yorkshire Area Organiser & forum moderator
Meetings have been suspended until a suitable venue has been found.
1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - The rolling restoration)
2008 Citroën C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 HDi Exclusive (MA08 WCL - the workhorse)
1995 BMW 318i (M265 PNC - Project Bimmer, the weekend car)
2004 Vauxhall Corsa Design 16V (FE04 FKG - gone to a new home)
Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

Check my blog at http://triumphtoledo.blogspot.com

"There is only one way to avoid criticsm: do nothing, say nothing and be nothing." Aristotle


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:09 am 
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Jon is most certainly missed though his help and knowledge are still used...………...I don't believe in what he believed, but he certainly has life after death.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Cheers all and you're spot on with that TJ.
Apparently its someones birthday next week so pump removal will have to wait till next year.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Hope you guys don't mind but I'm going to put Johns post on the Stag forum
it should help a lot of people


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