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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:18 am 
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Location: Dumfriesshire, UK
Hi all,

I have lots of play in "Steering Shaft/Knuckle - Lower - FAM1718"

I have read old posts on forums that suggest it is hard to buy good quality replacements, in particular, there seems to be a lot of advice to avoid the modern "pressed UJ" replacements being offered by some suppliers.

Can anyone recommend a source for a good quality replacement?

Thanks
David.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:23 am 
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Some of the original joints can be rebuilt. The ones that use locking wire....
And a set of poly bushes to rebuilt it are available from Chris Witor.

otherwise I have used the forged (?) type UJ joints on my toledo and spitfire to good effect, it is probably about a reliable supplier more than the shape of the item, cheap copies are everywhere, especially ebay!

When I fitted the solid UJ I had to shorten the intermediate shaft a bit.

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Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Even those bastions of tradition at Fitchetts have given up with repro copies of the original pattern FAM1718 joint. The quality of these is so bad they are failing in less than 6 months. I've taken failed ones off supplied by different well known Triumph specialists at less than 500 miles use. It's not the specialist's fault particularly, they were all buying them in the same (only?) place.

They now sell one of the pressed type joints instead and to fit this, you typically have to shorten the intermediate shaft by around 3/4". One or two people have reported being unable to sufficiently tighten this design of coupling onto the rack or intermediate shaft, others don't, but since there are several manufacturers involved (the part was originally marketed for MkI Escort so a bigger marketplace) I guess it's pot luck.

For myself and my customers I now exclusively fit the forged coupling supplied by Chris Witor. It's a bit more money, but most cars will accept it without shortening the intermediate shaft (Note, NOT all cars because of sloppy production tolerances! The car not the joint!) It's also very well made and, since it was made for a Triumph, (albeit a Triumph 2000) there's no problem with exact fit on the splines.

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:18 pm 
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Location: Dumfriesshire, UK
Hi Steve,

Is the Chris Witor part you mention 145377RM ? see link below.
https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=145377RM

Thanks in advance
David

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 Post subject: That is it....
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Hi Steve,

Is the Chris Witor part you mention 145377RM ? see link below.
https://www.chriswitor.com/proddetail.php?prod=145377RM

Thanks in advance
David

Yes




Ian.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:41 pm 
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Hi all,

Just an update.

After giving it a fair bit of thought I decided in the end to buy a used FAM1718 from Quiller. They have a few and I requested one with wire through the bolts so that I could refurb it in the future if the rubber bushes gave out.

The reason I opted for this is that the Triumph 2000 part is a universal joint without any bushes and the bushes provide a bit of shock absorption. All other "new" versions of the FAM1718 seem to have question marks around them regarding the types of bolts used and their methods of securing the bolts.

So I today removed the inermediate shaft hopeing to fit the new coupling but noted that the upper UJ that is part of the intermediate shaft also needs replacing. The UJ is lumpy.

So, anyone any experience with "Steering Knuckle and Shaft - Upper - 157659". It seems it is available from Rimmers and Canleys at the moment. Are they any good or more chineese copies made of plastacine?

David

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:15 pm 
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I agree with you over the coupling. Its not there for articulation, its a shock absorber. I dont agree with the installation of a UJ as a substitute. Its not doing the same job which is to stop vibrations travelling up the column. While you have the coupling off, id rebush it with the poly kit from Chris Witor, then its good to go for years.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:56 am 
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Quote:


The reason I opted for this is that the Triumph 2000 part is a universal joint without any bushes and the bushes provide a bit of shock absorption. All other "new" versions of the FAM1718 seem to have question marks around them regarding the types of bolts used and their methods of securing the bolts.

So I today removed the inermediate shaft hopeing to fit the new coupling but noted that the upper UJ that is part of the intermediate shaft also needs replacing. The UJ is lumpy.

So, anyone any experience with "Steering Knuckle and Shaft - Upper - 157659". It seems it is available from Rimmers and Canleys at the moment. Are they any good or more chineese copies made of plastacine?

David
I believe it is early versions of teh joint that used wired bolts. Factory later ones were "crimped" to stop them undoing, but makes disassembly very tricky. And te bolts are shouldered, so not easy to find (or rather, impossible)
The rubber is the issue, new ones fail very quickly. And do check your used one carefully, as the rubber feels OK in the hand, but once fitted can feel poor. The refurb kits from Witor work well (i have done that in the past) or the alternative is to use Viton O rings that last a reasonable amount of time.

Re the upper joint, I got one from Leacy Classics a few years ago, and has been fine. I know of a friend who had trouble with the same part (supplier eludes me) but ended up returning a few before an acceptable one was delivered. So seems to be variable quality. They can benefit from a good clean out in a bath of diesel or similar, articulating the joint to clear any build up of muck/rust. Downside is it may be sloppy after.

But on a personal not, I have run my last few Triumphs on solid rack mounts and solid UJ's in the column. No feeling of harshness, but maybe I am a bit less refined!

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Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Hmm......
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:56 pm 
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Location: Caithness, Scotland
Quote:
I agree with you over the coupling. Its not there for articulation, its a shock absorber. I dont agree with the installation of a UJ as a substitute. Its not doing the same job which is to stop vibrations travelling up the column. While you have the coupling off, id rebush it with the poly kit from Chris Witor, then its good to go for years.
What about the T2000 mark 2?
Manual steering models have two UJs whereas the PAS equipped cars have one UJ and a rubber coupling.
It is fair to say that T2000s had or have multiple vibration issues but the steering column is not one.
They rubber couplings are prone to failure.....


The downside of using a second UJ on a Dolomite is that it makes removal a bit of a scutter (since the UJ won't slide up the upper shaft,
also the UJ isn't angled , so the needle bearings won't rotate (shortening the life of the UJ).



Ian.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:55 pm 
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I agree that the column wasn't designed that way, but that doesn't mean it's the only way it can work satisfactorily. I too run solid rack mounts and a double UJ on all my cars and the only "fault" is pin sharp steering! At least, compared with standard! My own car with it's relatively hard road/track suspension settings has its share of rattles etc, but there is no untoward vibration in the column, nor any trace of bump steer. In practical terms, I can't see a downside.

I also don't think Ian is totally correct in saying there is no angle between the pinion and the intermediate column, though to be fair it's not a big one, only a few degrees and probably alters slightly depending on the loads on the subframe mounts! You can't really see the angle working with an original pattern coupling, with the forged UJ, it's more evident when turning it. Whether this has an effect on the long term life of a lower UJ remains to be seen, my oldest lower UJ is only about 5 years and 20k miles old, but seems OK so far. With the average lifespan of pattern FAM1718s, I reckon i've already saved twice the cost of the forged joint and several hours changing them!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Well.....
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Quote:
I also don't think Ian is totally correct in saying there is no angle between the pinion and the intermediate column,
I am sure there is no angle,
afterall the early Dolomite and Sprint lower steering joints slide straight up the intermediate shaft ( to clear the pinion).



Ian.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Theres no angle. No need to use a second UJ at all if all you want is "solid" steering. Just sleeve it if you really must. The original lower coupling is a shock absorber. Vibration damper. Layrub Coupling. Call it what you like.... its there for a reason and replacing it with a UJ is not correct. Matt.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:29 pm 
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I WOULD feel uncomfortable with just some sort of straight solid coupler in place of the "Layrub" or whatever you want to call it. The reason being that the intermediate shaft bridges between the bodyshell and the rubber mounted subframe. Even with poly subframe mount bushes, some relative movement between the two is almost inevitable. So a bit of flexibilty is desireable.

By the same token as the UJ isn't correct, the solid rack mounts that I use and love are not "correct" either, insofar as Triumph chose to rubber mount the rack from the factory. And in doing so, made the steering more vague and wooly feeling than is pleasant on a car with the performance of a Sprint. I don't KNOW why they thought it necessary to insulate so much at the cost of feel on the road - and I don't much care. My best guess is that the T1300 and Toledo that started it all were very much cars for the average man and as such, comfort silence and ride quality trumped performance aspects. When it comes to the Sprint, which is the closest Brits ever came to the American "muscle car" ethos, they were too cheap to alter most of the rest of car to suit a motor with double the original car's power. This also shows up in the woefully inadequate and mismatched brakes! But that is a whole different can of worms to open!

My take on it is that Triumph didn't build the best car they could, they only built the best they could on a limited budget. I am not so constricted so I feel free to "improve" the car to make something that works well, rather than one that works well enough! Especially since I am rather fond of USING all those extra ponies to their full potential!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:54 pm 
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I had one of the ones that break that broke while I was driving. So I've now got one of the forged group 2 escort ones in my Sprint. I also replaced the underwear.
I had one of the group 1 pressed ones in between and thought there was a problem with it giving, but there wasn't, and its now in the Herald where it's also fine.
Didn't need to shorten anything to fit either in either car. And there's no issue with vibration coming up the column.
The change to the steering in both cars was truly great after the horrible original fit ones.
Graham

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:43 pm 
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Using this previous thread.............., I wanted to ask the question as to whether it is possible to remove these "crimped" bolts in my lower steering knuckle at all (see pics)? I am assuming that these are the crimped type as there is no wire at the end of the bolts, and the bolts also look slightly pressed to prevent easy removal..

So is there a method of getting them out at all, and also re-using the bolts? And if not, are there suitable bolts that can be used in the rebuild?

I would prefer to use the knuckle that I have and re-bush it etc, but not entirely sure that this is actually achievable.... hence the post.

Any views or words of wisdom please on this??

Thanks in advance...


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