The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

The Number One Club for owners of Triumph's range of small saloons from the 1960s and 1970s.
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 Post subject: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:52 pm 
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Since I have some time on my hands, I have been putting the Sprint back together. I seemed to have cured the leak at the cylinder head, by having the inlet manifold skimmed. New O-ring for the bypass tube, new payen head gasket.

So imagine my dismay when I found a puddle under the radiator. I have replaced my Saab rad, which never quite fitted, with a Sprint one. £5 rad off ebay, which looked find when I stripped and painted it. I also checked it for leaks before fitting, I feared not carefully enough.

Then I noticed the large top hose was leaking at the rad. I had NOS for bottom hose and reused the one from the Saab rad for the other side. I had to get new for the large top hose because I couldn't find NOS and the Saab one was a different length. However I did have an old hose that came attached to the rad I had bought. I though it would be mad to use a unknown used hose but when I saw the leak, I switched it with the new one. No more leak.

Which isn't a surprise. The new hose was the wrong shape, it fouled the cylinder head. I had to shorten it. The rubber was so soft, I could tear it with my hands. The old hose from the rad I had bought was different shape, cleared the cylinder head with room to spare and was made of far better quality rubber.

We can't even make a rubber hose properly anymore, it is unbelievable.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:31 pm 
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We can't even make a rubber hose properly anymore, it is unbelievable.
Oh, we can, but the buyers who stock our suppliers are fundamentally cost led, and by and large, not even interested in old cars or the intended functions of their parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:38 pm 
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It has been the case for years 20? More?
But factories can and do make quality hoses.Just buy heater hose off the roll, it is great. Get some hoses off a new car, or OEM stuff, lovely (a friend had access to all sorts of VW and Nissan hoses, left over when he fitted replacement engines into forklifts, some useful shapes!)

Luckily some cars have silicone hose kits available, I know spitfires etc are catered for. These are generally decent quality, but come at a price. Probably similar to hoses for an OEM application from a main dealer. But most classic owners get offended if a hose costs more than a tenner.

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Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1168
Quote:
It has been the case for years 20? More?
But factories can and do make quality hoses.Just buy heater hose off the roll, it is great. Get some hoses off a new car, or OEM stuff, lovely (a friend had access to all sorts of VW and Nissan hoses, left over when he fitted replacement engines into forklifts, some useful shapes!)

Luckily some cars have silicone hose kits available, I know spitfires etc are catered for. These are generally decent quality, but come at a price. Probably similar to hoses for an OEM application from a main dealer. But most classic owners get offended if a hose costs more than a tenner.
I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 5588
Location: Highley, Shropshire
When I built the Carledo, I cut down the already used Carlton hoses. They're still there today and still sound! Most are OE fit from 1992.

I have a very large box of assorted used rad hoses and another similar one of shaped heater hoses in various diameters. Not often I get stuck for something to fit. I'd rather use these old OE hoses than buy poor quality new ones any day. I bought a new Sprint top hose from a respected supplier which split whilst trying to get it over the rad neck, It hadn't even seen water! Something from a Cavalier fits though!

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
Spectrum Auto Services, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 45 years and home of Maverick Triumph.PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:44 pm 
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Future Club member hopefully!
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:10 pm
Posts: 639
Location: NORTH NOTTS
Quote:
But most classic owners get offended if a hose costs more than a tenner.
that also goes for new car owners

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Dolomite 1300,1980`V`reg in british racing brown(russet),3.63 diff with 21t speedo pinion,95%poly`d,HL clocks,standard wheels with SE covers wrapt in 175 70 13,mot`d 19-09-2014,been off the since 1990,(july2017) stainless steel exhaust 3-piece,(xmas2018) wooden mountney steering wheel

Dolomite 1300,1977(tax free 1-1-1977),`R`reg in carmine red,bog standard including rust :shock: last time on road 6-2005


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:34 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2128
Quote:

I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.
It came from the horses mouth. Classic owners (in general) buy on price. The chappie involved has had batches of stuff made, but when it costs 2x the price of the inferior parts, they sell incredibly slowly so are uneconomic. This is where clubs come in handy, as they can get interest in a part, get deposits and then get a batch made. This club is very lucky! But a commercial business just can't do that and make a living. So they sell what is available. Much of the stuff they reject goes back to their supplier. But I bet it doesn't get binned, more likely sold elsewhere (ebay?)
So we have to be inventive if we want quality stuff. Meanwhile the companies that sell to the public will carry on supplying us with parts, some they know will be short lived. But it is that or nothing.

_________________
Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Aye...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:22 pm
Posts: 6544
Location: Caithness, Scotland
Quote:
Luckily some cars have silicone hose kits available, I know spitfires etc are catered for. These are generally decent quality, but come at a price.
Clive, you are quite correct.
If you want quality buy European, alternatively there are really rubbish copies from the bootleggers in China,
Silicon.com is a brand to avoid.
There are quite a few British among the European manufacturers.




Ian.

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 Post subject: Oh man...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:22 pm
Posts: 6544
Location: Caithness, Scotland
Quote:
Quote:
It has been the case for years 20? More?
But factories can and do make quality hoses.Just buy heater hose off the roll, it is great. Get some hoses off a new car, or OEM stuff, lovely (a friend had access to all sorts of VW and Nissan hoses, left over when he fitted replacement engines into forklifts, some useful shapes!)

Luckily some cars have silicone hose kits available, I know spitfires etc are catered for. These are generally decent quality, but come at a price. Probably similar to hoses for an OEM application from a main dealer. But most classic owners get offended if a hose costs more than a tenner.
I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.
We have been here before,
mind previously you didn't come up with even one example to validate your statements.
As Judge Judy says......hearsay!



Ian.

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PLEASE help us to maintain a friendly forum,
either PM or use Report Post if you see anything you are unhappy with. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1168
Quote:
Quote:

I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.
It came from the horses mouth. Classic owners (in general) buy on price. The chappie involved has had batches of stuff made, but when it costs 2x the price of the inferior parts, they sell incredibly slowly so are uneconomic. This is where clubs come in handy, as they can get interest in a part, get deposits and then get a batch made. This club is very lucky! But a commercial business just can't do that and make a living. So they sell what is available. Much of the stuff they reject goes back to their supplier. But I bet it doesn't get binned, more likely sold elsewhere (ebay?)
So we have to be inventive if we want quality stuff. Meanwhile the companies that sell to the public will carry on supplying us with parts, some they know will be short lived. But it is that or nothing.
I can understand what the suppliers are saying but the problem from a consumer point of view. Is I don't get to see the production costs, I have no idea if part Y is really worth two or three times as much as part X. The only way that information is discovered is when the parts get into circulation and we get to see which parts last.

Mark Evans complained about this years ago on his series an MG is born. He was plagued by parts that were poor quality or wouldn't fit properly. He said that the only way the problem would ever be solved is if customers started sending substandard parts back. If suppliers discovered that selling rubbish left with a big bill for returns, they would stop doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh man...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1168
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It has been the case for years 20? More?
But factories can and do make quality hoses.Just buy heater hose off the roll, it is great. Get some hoses off a new car, or OEM stuff, lovely (a friend had access to all sorts of VW and Nissan hoses, left over when he fitted replacement engines into forklifts, some useful shapes!)

Luckily some cars have silicone hose kits available, I know spitfires etc are catered for. These are generally decent quality, but come at a price. Probably similar to hoses for an OEM application from a main dealer. But most classic owners get offended if a hose costs more than a tenner.
I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.
We have been here before,
mind previously you didn't come up with even one example to validate your statements.
As Judge Judy says......hearsay!



Ian.
OK I will give you an example, we have a 75 which has been fitted with the most expensive clutch components on the market. All so we can avoid problems and the release baring on the slave cylinder failed after a month. On another 75, new crank pulley, once again an expensive one. First pulley I got was actually put together inside out, with the smaller pulley for the aircon on the wrong side. To be fair supplier replaced it, ensured me it was a one off error and the replacement is the wrong stiffness, so the drive belt resonates. Price generally means higher quality but it doesn't guarantee it. Maybe I have been unlucky but I have very little faith in parts suppliers.

I really don't think I am being unreasonable, I just want the parts advertised by suppliers to be fit for purpose. It bit like comparing an expensive restaurant with a cheap one. Yes the expensive one is likely to serve better food but you would expect both to produce food that didn't give you food poisoning.

Yes a more expensive part should be better but cheap parts should at least fit and last more that a couple of months. That is not unreasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:44 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2128
Sounds like a typical situation. I would always seek genuine OEM stuff, even if it took a bit of finding and effort.
Somebody I knows who runs a decent sized garage despairs at the quality of aftermarket spares. If OEM is not an option, he will only fit parts from a select number of manufacturers. Febi, Lemforder are the 2 I can remember. Obviously Bosch /denso etc for rotating parts. But as he has had issues with losing out over having to re-fit inferior parts he is not interested in potential customers who want either their own parts fitted (despite explaining it was down to them for warranty claims, and associated labour costs should the part fail, many don't understand why he wanted to charge to re-fit when it did fail) or indeed cheaper parts expecting him to supply and warrant. Those customers are told politely to go elsewhere.

_________________
Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Once again...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:31 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:22 pm
Posts: 6544
Location: Caithness, Scotland
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.
We have been here before,
mind previously you didn't come up with even one example to validate your statements.
As Judge Judy says......hearsay!



Ian.
OK I will give you an example, we have a 75 which has been fitted with the most expensive clutch components on the market. All so we can avoid problems and the release baring on the slave cylinder failed after a month. On another 75, new crank pulley, once again an expensive one. First pulley I got was actually put together inside out, with the smaller pulley for the aircon on the wrong side. To be fair supplier replaced it, ensured me it was a one off error and the replacement is the wrong stiffness, so the drive belt resonates. Price generally means higher quality but it doesn't guarantee it. Maybe I have been unlucky but I have very little faith in parts suppliers.

I really don't think I am being unreasonable, I just want the parts advertised by suppliers to be fit for purpose. It bit like comparing an expensive restaurant with a cheap one. Yes the expensive one is likely to serve better food but you would expect both to produce food that didn't give you food poisoning.

Yes a more expensive part should be better but cheap parts should at least fit and last more that a couple of months. That is not unreasonable.
An example of not answering the question!




Ian.

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PLEASE help us to maintain a friendly forum,
either PM or use Report Post if you see anything you are unhappy with. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh man...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:49 pm
Posts: 717
Location: Sutton,Surrey.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


I have heard the cost argument before but I have two problems with it.

The first is, there isn't a direct link between cost and quality of car parts. I have had cheap parts that are brilliant and expensive parts that are fit only for the bin. The second is, it isn't an excuse for suppliers. Of course I want to spend as little on parts as I can, in the same way supplier want to keep their costs down. There is nothing wrong with that.

A supplier has a duty to supply a part which is fit for purpose. If they a knowingly selling rubbish, they are effectively conning their customers. There are quite a few suppliers I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, I won't list them here.

I only ended up with this top hose because I couldn't find the hose at the suppliers I trust. I suppose I could have gone for silicon hoses but I have heard horror stories about those being poorly made and fit only for the bin.
We have been here before,
mind previously you didn't come up with even one example to validate your statements.
As Judge Judy says......hearsay!



Ian.
OK I will give you an example, we have a 75 which has been fitted with the most expensive clutch components on the market. All so we can avoid problems and the release baring on the slave cylinder failed after a month. On another 75, new crank pulley, once again an expensive one. First pulley I got was actually put together inside out, with the smaller pulley for the aircon on the wrong side. To be fair supplier replaced it, ensured me it was a one off error and the replacement is the wrong stiffness, so the drive belt resonates. Price generally means higher quality but it doesn't guarantee it. Maybe I have been unlucky but I have very little faith in parts suppliers.

I really don't think I am being unreasonable, I just want the parts advertised by suppliers to be fit for purpose. It bit like comparing an expensive restaurant with a cheap one. Yes the expensive one is likely to serve better food but you would expect both to produce food that didn't give you food poisoning.

Yes a more expensive part should be better but cheap parts should at least fit and last more that a couple of months. That is not unreasonable.

Like the top chief that poisoned about 40/45 of his paying guests.

In theory you would think paying more got you better.
But as everyone knows it’s not always the case.
You pays your money and takes your choice.

_________________
2005 Mercedes C Class V6 Diesel Turbo Daily Driver.
1980 Dolomite Sprint with a touch of BLT
Balanced Lightened and Tweaked 13B Rotary.
Rebuilding the Sprint time now spent 72Hrs 24/03/2020
80Hrs 08/05/2020.

Member TDC no 0471


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbish modern parts
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 1:22 pm
Posts: 339
Well I have had the exact same problems with my ZT-T (the sporting 75) clutch. OEM parts from LUK failed after 3000miles. Anyone who owns one of these will know that this is a big problem and is the same from all of the suppliers with all showing similar failures. Same issue with these cars with drop links, ball joints, etc. all OEM from reputable suppliers (or supposedly).

My Dolomite I've had rad hoses that do not fit, NOS clutch master rusted in bore, clutch pivot pin, nothing like the one in pictures of supplier, brake hoses failing in no time OEM branded, ball joint covers disintegrating within two years (from the club), Distributor caps out of centre, condensers, utter crap, all from reputable suppliers and in most cases all that's available. We have to rely on these suppliers, who advertise in our club mag, that what they sell us is of good quality, but in general a lot of it isn't. I know that the market does not warrant the investment in tooling for the numbers produced as we will not pay the resultant price. This is direct from the suppliers customer feed back. We will happily pay £4.95 for a distributer cap that is garbage with the posts out of centre and not £30.00 or thereabouts for one that will last a lifetime. Its not worth tooling up to make hoses that fit for the numbers that will be sold so we have to take what we get.


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