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PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 7:59 am 
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Can I check I’ve got this right...

Ian state’s that the Sprint heater is 280x130x50
From the PDF, SE5a heater is 270x194x59 so it’s not 10mm x 8mm bigger ?

Will the SE5a fit ?


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PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 8:46 am 
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Scimitar SE5a 1975 21020 270 140 58a 1/2"

Scimitar SE4A V6 20155 225 194 59 1/2"


Just noticed the SE6 matrix isn’t listed

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1980 Dolomite Sprint with a touch of BLTS
Balanced Lightened and Tweaked 13B Rotary and SuperCharged.
Rebuilding the Sprint time taken so far, 111Hrs@15/12/2020

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 Post subject: Okay........
PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 9:05 am 
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Quote:
Can I check I’ve got this right...

Ian state’s that the Sprint heater is 280x130x50
From the PDF, SE5a heater is 270x194x59 so it’s not 10mm x 8mm bigger ?

Will the SE5a fit ?
Richard, the 280 dimension is the overall size including the tanks (in other words the width of the heater box).
When I calculated the surface area and volume I used 270mm for the width.
The dimensions quoted by sellers are for the matrix only.
I am seeing 140 as a SE5a height?


From studying the UK Car Cooling online website I found a lot of current heater matrix cores are both shallower
and have less surface area than a Sprint, but have bigger hosetails, 16mm (5/8") typically instead of
a Sprint's 1/2". Therefore I concluded that the bigger hose size is the key and having just read Clive's
post about the Herald I am further persuaded.


Anyhow, I have found a matrix to try, it is for a Peugeot 605.
These are over £100 less than the only price I found for a Scimitar (which was £114+VAT and delivery, made to order).

The thing to bear in mind is that this won't be a comparison to a standard Sprint, given that my car will have
the heater supply from the cylinder head and a 88 degree thermostat.
I will also be looking at the possibility of enlarging the ducting outlets to the front screen
and also running ducting to the back footwells.



Ian.

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PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 11:41 am 
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Ian

you said your car will have the heater supply from the cylinder head ,Am i right in thinking your going to make or retap the blank water transfer plate at the back of the head to take a hose tail, so could you not justn have your original heater matrix modified new bigger hose out lets fitted

Dave


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PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 11:58 am 
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Ian,

Wow...that’s amazing !! Can buy new 605 matrices very cheaply and won’t detract from the look of the car at all, but should provide an upgrade.

Interested to see how this progresses !!

Thanks, Richard


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 Post subject: Foe me,....
PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 4:08 pm 
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Quote:
Ian

you said your car will have the heater supply from the cylinder head ,Am i right in thinking your going to make or retap the blank water transfer plate at the back of the head to take a hose tail, so could you not justn have your original heater matrix modified new bigger hose out lets fitted

Dave

Image

Rather out of character, I have been decadent and bought a new transfer housing from Sprintspeed.
It also has a tapped hole for a coolant temperature sensor (which I will need for the EFI).

(Rimmer Bros have NOS Sprint transfer housings that incorporate a hose tail).


You are correct Dave, it will be possible to fit larger hose tails to an existing matrix
but in my opinion, if you are going to that effort, it makes sense to have a bigger new bespoke one made
(which, going to a radiator specialist, based on what I read yesterday could be £130).


:) I do like to use existing parts where possible.



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 Post subject: Re: Foe me,....
PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 6:31 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Ian

you said your car will have the heater supply from the cylinder head ,Am i right in thinking your going to make or retap the blank water transfer plate at the back of the head to take a hose tail, so could you not justn have your original heater matrix modified new bigger hose out lets fitted

Dave

Image

Rather out of character, I have been decadent and bought a new transfer housing from Sprintspeed.
It also has a tapped hole for a coolant temperature sensor (which I will need for the EFI).

(Rimmer Bros have NOS Sprint transfer housings that incorporate a hose tail).


You are correct Dave, it will be possible to fit larger hose tails to an existing matrix
but in my opinion, if you are going to that effort, it makes sense to have a bigger new bespoke one made
(which, going to a radiator specialist, based on what I read yesterday could be £130).


:) I do like to use existing parts where possible.



Ian.
Ian

are you using the original water pump ? or going to use electric water pump or may be the ford essex pump

Dave


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PostPosted:Mon May 11, 2020 9:00 pm 
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I can see the sense in upgrading to 5/8 bore and getting a matrix to suit your needs, preferably as big as you can get in the box.

My query concerns the tap, which is built in on the Dolomite matrix, but not, as far as I can tell on anything else that has been mentioned here. And how you intend to get round this lack?

On that subject, I have here a self contained one which had a past life on the Omega. I didn't need it as I used the Sprint one with an early Sprint H pipe for a bypass. This one is not TOO bulky, incorporates a bypass within it (it has 3 pipes with an either/or valve) and runs 5/8" pipes. There's only 1 snag, it's vacuum operated from vac drawn from the servo pipe and a vac switch on the dash (which I don't think I kept!)

On a similar vein, IIRC early 90s Golfs and Polos featured a simple 5/8" bore inline heater tap that was cable operated. It sat under the bonnet on VWs, but could be put almost anywhere.

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

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 Post subject: Okay........
PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 11:45 am 
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Thanks Dave, I am using a Stewart EMP pump but that has no direct bearing on what I am trying to do
here with the heater,
you can change the hose tail on the standard water pump cover to a 16mm one to match the new heater.
(As an aside, years ago, I had thought about rerouting the cooling system bypass to the bottom hose.
You could then blank off the water pump cover and the inlet manifold and use a bigger bore hose
for a better flow and (hopefully) less strain on the water pump.

Thanks Steve, yes I have already looked at this, Car Builder Solutions do a variety of heater taps.
Until the heater matrix arrives, I won't really know what I am up against.


Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay........
PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 4:25 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks Dave, I am using a Stewart EMP pump but that has no direct bearing on what I am trying to do
here with the heater,
you can change the hose tail on the standard water pump cover to a 16mm one to match the new heater.
(As an aside, years ago, I had thought about rerouting the cooling system bypass to the bottom hose.
You could then blank off the water pump cover and the inlet manifold and use a bigger bore hose
for a better flow and (hopefully) less strain on the water pump.

Thanks Steve, yes I have already looked at this, Car Builder Solutions do a variety of heater taps.
Until the heater matrix arrives, I won't really know what I am up against.


Ian.

Ian

i was tiring to work out how you were going to plum your water system, ive made the same water transfer plate as the one you bought ,ive tee in to H pipe to feed the back of the head

What inlet manifold are you going to use on your EFI set up ,i started to make an in let manifold but run in to problems with the termostate housing getting in the way

Dave


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PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 4:37 pm 
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Hi Ian, I think the basic problem here is the use of EWC as the coolant.
Just to recap on what I wrote for the mag some time ago I deduced EWC was based on Propylene Glycol.
When used as a vehicle coolant its physical properties have 3 problems.

1. The specific heat is much lower than that of water.
Water = 4.18 J / g / K.
EWC = 2.51 J / g / K.
So for a given heat input EWC will run hotter.

2. The Thermal Conductivity is much lower.
Water = 0.606 W / m.K
EWC = 0.206 W / m.K

3. The viscosity is a lot higher than water.
Water = 0.5 Cp at 60 Deg C.
EWC = 8.4 Cp at 60 Deg C.
So to give a specified flow rate the pump pressure must be higher.
Or given a specific pump pressure, the flow rate is lower.

So, all other things being equal the engine will always run hotter with EWC.
And the heater will run cooler.

( The big advantages of the non-pressurisation , and non-corrosive properties are why I use it though. ).

So I did some maths around the heater matrix. See .pdf.

There are a number of assumptions but from Case 1 with an assumed flow rate of 100 gms /sec = 100cc sec or ~ 6L min and a heater inlet temp of 80 deg C and an outlet at room temp of 20 deg C the matrix is dissipating 25,080 Joules.

Case 2 is where the water is swapped for EWC and I assume the same inlet and outlet temps; and flow rate . So best case you will only liberate 15,060 Joules. BUT… EWC is more viscous so flow rate will be lower, and the thermal conductivity is lower which I haven't accounted for in this simple calc; But the inlet temp will be higher. Even so much less heat output.

Case 3 . Attempts to answer the question . How hot must the engine be with the same flow rate, and the same temp; drop to give the same heat output.
This comes out at nearly 120 Deg C. Far too hot for a slant 4.

So what are the solutions …

1. Let the engine temp rise. In Summer mine runs at 90 deg C

2. Yes, increase the matrix size.

3. Increase the flow rate, perhaps by use of the Davis-Craig mini motor-bike electric water pump controlled by the heater motor switch. Which is what I have on CWL.

HTH,
Tony.


Attachments:
EWC H2O comp.pdf [32.14KiB]
Downloaded 16 times


Last edited by MIG Wielder on Tue May 12, 2020 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Aye,....
PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 8:24 pm 
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That is interesting Tony.
To be fair, I am the kind of person who will try something then try to figure why it didn't work
as well as it could have.
From experience I know that waterless coolant isn't a factor.
Please bear in mind, I am using Powercool 180 not the classic version.
Quote:
So what are the solutions …

1. Let the engine temp rise. In Summer mine runs at 90 deg C

2. Yes, increase the matrix size.

3. Increase the flow rate, perhaps by use of the Davis-Craig mini motor-bike electric water pump controlled by the heater motor switch. Which is what I have on CWL.

HTH,
Tony.
No.1 I use an 88 degree thermostat all year round. This definitely improves the heater.

No.2 I am not sure if it is just the surface area that matters or is the depth a factor too?

No.3 Yes, that is why I am going for 16mm bore hoses.

I don't need a second pump because the heater return is plumbed to the input side of the pump.
The Stewart pump operates at 200 litres/minute (which I gather a Ford Zetec water pump can match.
A Focus has a fairly small heater matrix but a very good heater).
There will be way to calculate how much of this flow will go the heater but I don't know how to do it.
I would have to build a test rig to find out......which seems rather a lot of work

and probably rather messy too :)


Ian.

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 Post subject: Right....
PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 8:42 pm 
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Quote:

Ian

i was tiring to work out how you were going to plum your water system, ive made the same water transfer plate as the one you bought ,ive tee in to H pipe to feed the back of the head

What inlet manifold are you going to use on your EFI set up ,i started to make an in let manifold but run in to problems with the termostate housing getting in the way

Dave
http://www.mangoletsimanifolds.com/mani ... iumph.html


I don't use the supply from the inlet manifold to heater. Doing this means you don't need the H-piece.

The heater input is from the cylinder head and the heater return is to the bottom hose.


Ian.

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PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 9:19 pm 
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I'm explaining this more for Dave's and other's benefit than yours Ian!

With your system (which I thoroughly approve of) you are altering both the feed and return for the heater so it feeds from the back of the head (very good) and you blank the manifold takeoff and ditch the convoluted late model H pipe.

Then it returns to the bottom hose (all good, the return MUST be below the now electric pump or there's no heater circulation) and you blank the original return to the old water pump housing.

The only thing I will take issue with is "I don't need an H pipe"

You certainly don't need that big clumsy piece of steel piping that normally lives under the inlet, but you DO need SOMETHING to do it's job, which is to provide a bypass for water in the heater pipes when the tap is shut and no water can get through the matrix. Otherwise you will be plagued with airlocks.

Early Sprints had an H piece which was just that, an exact H around 2.5 inches long, which is what I have incorporated into the Dolomega's pipework. Obviously you will need a 16mm bore version for your job.

Forgive me if you have thought of this and just not mentioned it! I'm not intending to teach my granny to suck eggs!

Steve

Edit, Does the Mangoletsi manifold even HAVE a water heated element to blank?

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Right....
PostPosted:Tue May 12, 2020 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:

Ian

i was tiring to work out how you were going to plum your water system, ive made the same water transfer plate as the one you bought ,ive tee in to H pipe to feed the back of the head

What inlet manifold are you going to use on your EFI set up ,i started to make an in let manifold but run in to problems with the termostate housing getting in the way

Dave
http://www.mangoletsimanifolds.com/mani ... iumph.html


I don't use the supply from the inlet manifold to heater. Doing this means you don't need the H-piece.

The heater input is from the cylinder head and the heater return is to the bottom hose.


Ian.
Ian

thats a better way of plumming it, but you will need some sort of by pass ,other wise if ive got this right if you turn the heater off the car would over heat,and i take it you just block off the original supply from the inlet manifold
I would like one of those mangolet manifold but there dear, and then ive still got to drill holes in it for the injector bungs :shock:

dave


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