The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

The Number One Club for owners of Triumph's range of small saloons from the 1960s and 1970s.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:43 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:33 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Does anyone know the maximum recommended towing weight for a Sprint?

SWMBO wants a little 2 berth touring van to pull behind the Dolomega for holidays, I've got no qualms about it myself, the car will be more than powerful enough to pull anything within reason, but it'd be nice to not get into trouble about it!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:27 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:49 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Sutton,Surrey.
https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... hp?t=25540

https://club.triumph.org.uk/menu/18293/item/450280/view


Is there a chassis plate showing max gross weight on the Sprint.

Usually it’s about 80% of the kerb weight of the tow 🚗

The other thing is what entitlement do you have on your license regarding towing?.
You could be limited to a max 750Kg limit.

_________________
2009 Mini Clubman Cooper S Daily Driver.
1980 Dolomite Sprint with a touch of BLTS
Balanced Lightened and Tweaked 13B Rotary and SuperCharged.
Back in my possession 22 September 2019.
Rebuilding the Sprint time taken so far, 111Hrs@15/12/2020
212Hrs @31/12/2021
352 @ 28/11/2022
455Hrs @ 20/10/2023
480Hrs @ 14/03/2024
This is time taken at the Sprint not necessary time worked.

Working on a ratio of just 7Hrs a day not including driving to the Sprint.
That equals to 68 days that doesn’t include weekends.
Member TDC no 0471

Project 13B Sprint now back on.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:13 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:03 am
Posts: 299
Location: High Wycombe
May be you’re only insured to tow a certain amount too Steve ?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:52 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:24 pm
Posts: 1225
Location: Cornwall
Original handbook says 762kg for a braked trailer.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:16 am 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:00 pm
Posts: 282
R.O.M. says the following:

2 up, restart gradient at sea level 1 in 8, trailer weight 1275kg

BUT

it also says:

"With extra care braked trailers in excess of the above weight may be towed up to a Gross Train Weight of 2750 kg"

Max Gross Vehicle weight is 1375kg, so max trailer weight of 1375kg

Max static tow bar load 50kg (2 sacks of potatoes!)

This is all for a standard Dolly Sprint.


If your trailer brakes are working correctly then the car brakes do not have to work harder.

It is not the power (bhp) that is important it is the torque and gearing. My Old Land Rover 110 has the old 19J Turbo Diesel (not TDi) max of 85 BHP. Unladen it weighs 2 tons and is as aerodynamic as a brick. Yet it easily tows a fully laden 3.5 ton trailer (total train weight is 6.5 tons) - not fast, acceleration is glacial (it is without a trailer!) - but it is not an issue and I don't even have to use the low range box unless dragging it across a field.


The key to towing large trailers is to load them right, get the nose weight right and a bit of weight in the boot. Any hint of snaking then stop and adjust the load. Biggest mistakes people make with snaking trailers is either to hit the brakes or to try to correct with the steering, the later is the most dangerous as their reactions are usually too slow and they end up providing "positive feedback" making the snaking worse.

Image

_________________
1975 Sprint Man O/D in Honeysuckle Yellow
1971 Stag Auto White

Too many cars, too little time!


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:24 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:08 am
Posts: 691
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
The caravan club say the loaded trailer weight should be 85 - 90% of the car weight. It says never exceed 100% of the car's weight.

_________________
Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:45 am 
Offline
TDC Cheshire Area Organiser

Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:28 pm
Posts: 1405
Location: NANTWICH.
If you haven't had a caravan before Steve? Beware of the dreaded damp..... Don't bother with a damp meter just use the rust on a car test. I used to service caravans many moons ago along with cars. There are a lot of nice lightweight small caravans out there. If you need any tips let me know.

Tony.

_________________
NOW A CLUB MEMBER 2017057 :bluewave:


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:01 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:49 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Sutton,Surrey.
https://www.arval.co.uk/sites/uk/files/ ... _guide.pdf




The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.

No wonder so many people get this wrong. 😡

_________________
2009 Mini Clubman Cooper S Daily Driver.
1980 Dolomite Sprint with a touch of BLTS
Balanced Lightened and Tweaked 13B Rotary and SuperCharged.
Back in my possession 22 September 2019.
Rebuilding the Sprint time taken so far, 111Hrs@15/12/2020
212Hrs @31/12/2021
352 @ 28/11/2022
455Hrs @ 20/10/2023
480Hrs @ 14/03/2024
This is time taken at the Sprint not necessary time worked.

Working on a ratio of just 7Hrs a day not including driving to the Sprint.
That equals to 68 days that doesn’t include weekends.
Member TDC no 0471

Project 13B Sprint now back on.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:36 pm 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:00 pm
Posts: 282
Quote:
https://www.arval.co.uk/sites/uk/files/ ... _guide.pdf




The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.

No wonder so many people get this wrong. 😡
Yes and it is exactly what the R.O.M. states - Max Gross Vehicle weight of 1375kg and max gross trailer weight of 1375kg = gross train weight of 2750 kg. i.e. all fully loaded including weight of car, luggage, passengers, full tank of fuel etc.

The normal rules don't apply to vehicles like Land Rovers etc. As I said my 110 has a max gross vehicle weight of 3000kg but can legally tow 3500kg or even 4000kg with close coupled brakes.

Roger

_________________
1975 Sprint Man O/D in Honeysuckle Yellow
1971 Stag Auto White

Too many cars, too little time!


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:55 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
I'm more than alright about towing, I passed my test in 1971 so I can legally drive/tow anything I like basically! (well, up to 7.5 tonne GVW) And I have motor trade insurance which specifically covers towing trailers.

I've also been towing stuff around almost as long as i've been driving, caravans, box trailers, 4 wheel car trailers, suspended tow recovery vehicles, (good old Harvey Frost) ambulance dollys and ropes/straps/fixed bar, you name it, i've towed it!

So i don't actually know the kerb weight of the Dolomega, but it's unlikely to be far away from a stock Sprint, the figure i've been basing my guesses on is the MOT brake testing weight for a stock Sprint (1170kg) This is supposed to represent the car with driver, spare wheel, tools, half a tank of fuel and "accumulated road dirt" which seems like a fair representation to me. The Vauxhall engine i've used is 2198cc and alleged to be 147bhp out of the box (gross I assume) can't remember the torque figure but have no comparison anyway as Sprint torque is listed in ft lb and the Omega figure is in nm or something similar. I have a slightly smaller and less powerful version of the same engine (137bhp/2000cc) in my Cavalier, along with a FWD version of the same Aisin/Warner 4 speed 3 range autobox and that's one of the best towing cars i've ever owned (and i've run Volvo 240s!) I think it will be more than sufficient for my purposes anyway. TBH, i'm more concerned about the strength of the towbar anchorages on the body!

With this in mind, i've been looking at caravans with kerb weights around 800kg and gross weights of no more than about 1050kg, which, looking at what you've all kindly written above, seems about right! There seems to be plenty to choose from within those parameters.

Thanks all for your help and suggestions,

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:03 am 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:48 pm
Posts: 1635
Quote:
https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... hp?t=25540



Usually it’s about 80% of the kerb weight of the tow 🚗

The other thing is what entitlement do you have on your license regarding towing?.
You could be limited to a max 750Kg limit.
Thats incorrect advice sorry.

The 80% is just advice that the caravan club and other give its not law but it depends on what the VIN plate or manufactures advice is as some cars are less and some are the cars laden weight.

if you passed your car test after 1997 you are not limited to 750kg, the law is that you can not exceed 3500kg combined weight but the trailer must be within the limits of the cars allowed towing weights.

From the DVLA....
If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
OR tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg.

_________________
Some people are like Slinky's, they serve no real purpose in life but bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:11 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:49 pm
Posts: 960
Location: Sutton,Surrey.
The 80% is just advice that the caravan club and other give its not law but it depends on what the VIN plate or manufactures advice is as some cars are less and some are the cars laden weight.


Not really
It’s a good starting point if you unsure of what you can tow.
And why I asked what’s on the vin plate.


if you passed your car test after 1997 you are not limited to 750kg, the law is that you can not exceed 3500kg combined weight but the trailer must be within the limits of the cars allowed towing weights.


Yes I know that but I don’t know when Steve passed his test or even how old he is.
Or anyone else reading this.
It is a general Rule I was going by.
I‘ll get me coat.

_________________
2009 Mini Clubman Cooper S Daily Driver.
1980 Dolomite Sprint with a touch of BLTS
Balanced Lightened and Tweaked 13B Rotary and SuperCharged.
Back in my possession 22 September 2019.
Rebuilding the Sprint time taken so far, 111Hrs@15/12/2020
212Hrs @31/12/2021
352 @ 28/11/2022
455Hrs @ 20/10/2023
480Hrs @ 14/03/2024
This is time taken at the Sprint not necessary time worked.

Working on a ratio of just 7Hrs a day not including driving to the Sprint.
That equals to 68 days that doesn’t include weekends.
Member TDC no 0471

Project 13B Sprint now back on.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:12 am 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:20 pm
Posts: 1293
Location: Shetland / here & there
:lol: I think that you can safely assume that there is a four nines percentage of forum lurkers that come under the category of:
Quote:
Licences issued before 1 January 1997
If you passed your car test before 1 January 1997 you’re usually allowed to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8,250kg MAM. View your driving licence information to check.

You’re also allowed to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kg MAM.
And probably some with a paper license issued by their local bobby down the nick.

I've got both our coats, and I've brought my hard hat too...

_________________
Current fleet: '75 Sprint, '73 1850, Daihatsu Fourtrak, Honda CG125, Yamaha Fazer 600, Shetland 570 (yes it's a boat!)

Past fleet: Triumph 2000, Lancia Beta Coupe, BL Mini Clubman, Austin Metro, Vauxhall Cavalier MK1 & MK2, Renault 18 D, Rover 216 GSI, Honda Accord (most expensive car purchase, hated, made out of magnetic metal as only car I've ever been crashed into...4 times), BMW 318, Golf GTi MK3 16v x 3


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:13 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 4:38 pm
Posts: 535
Location: South Benfleet, Essex
The Triumph Toledo’s Towing Capacity & Limitations!?!

Although my BLMC Triumph Toledo 1300 Handbook [Publication Part No. 545116, 4th Edition | i.e. the owners’ vehicle operating handbook that typically accompanied the car when new] includes vehicle weights for the 2-door & 4-door saloons, in the Weights (approximate) sub-section, on Page 61 of the General Specification section, there is no trailer-towing information in this section or on any other page of this publication.

According to the Towing Information sub-section on Page 04-3, of Section 04 – General Specification Data, of the official loose-leaf BLMC Triumph Toledo 1300 & 1500 Repair Operation Manual [Part No. 545168, Issue 3], the towing limits for the Triumph Toledo 1300, 1500 & 1500TC saloons are as follows:

Maximum braked-trailer weight: 15 cwt (i.e. 762¼ kg by calculation)

Maximum un-braked-trailer weight: 3•94 cwt (i.e. 200 kg), provided the total weight of the car and trailer (i.e. combined weight of the car, car’s payload, trailer & trailer’s payload), does not exceed the car’s maximum gross-vehicle weight for cars with1300 & 1500 single carburettor engines, or 28•8 cwt (i.e. 1465 kg) for cars with 1500 twin-carburettor engines.

According to the Weights sub-section on Page 04-3, of Section 04 – General Specification Data, of the official loose-leaf BLMC Triumph Toledo 1300 & 1500 Repair Operation Manual [Part No. 545168, Issue 3], the basic kerb-weights and maximum gross-vehicle weights for the Triumph Toledo 1300, 1500 & 1500TC saloons, with two or four doors, are as follows:

1300 & 1500 (2-door saloon) basic kerb-weight: 17 cwt (i.e. circa 865 kg | 863•9 kg by calculation)

1300 (4-door saloon) basic kerb-weight: 17¼ cwt (i.e. 875 kg | 876•6 kg by calculation) – as for Nigel Skeet’s vehicle

1500TC (4-door saloon) basic kerb-weight: 17¾ cwt (i.e. circa 900 kg | 902•0 kg by calculation)

1300 & 1500 (2-door saloon) maximum gross-vehicle weight: 24 cwt (i.e. circa 1230 kg | 1219•6 kg by calculation)

1300 (4-door saloon) maximum gross-vehicle weight: 24¼ cwt (i.e. circa 1240 kg | 1232•3 kg by calculation) – as for Nigel Skeet’s vehicle

1500TC (4-door saloon) maximum gross-vehicle weight: 24¾ cwt (i.e. circa 1265 kg | 1255•7 kg by calculation)

This implies that all Triumph Toledo models have the same maximum payload of 7 cwt (i.e. 355•7 kg | calculated using 1 kg = 2•204 lbs & 1 cwt = 8 st = 112 lbs).

Hence, even if the Triumph Toledo 1500TC (4-door saloon) is at its maximum gross-vehicle weight of circa 1265 kg (i.e. carrying its maximum payload of circa 355•7 kg), it still retains a maximum towing limit of 200 kg (implied by 1465 kg – 1265 kg = 200 kg) for an un-braked trailer.

This also implies that a Triumph Toledo 1500TC with twin carburettors has a much greater maximum un-braked trailer towing weight than a Triumph Toledo 1300 or 1500 with single carburettor when the car is carrying a payload of more than 155•7 kg (i.e. 355•7 kg – 200+ kg). It seems strange that the mere fact of having twin carburettors confers this additional payload allowance!?! There is also the inference that a Triumph Toledo 1300 or 1500 with single carburettor, carrying the maximum payload of circa 355•7 kg, would be restricted from towing an un-braked trailer of any kind.

Hence, if the cars were carrying no luggage and only two people having an average weight of more than 77•85 kg = 12 st 3½ lbs (not untypical for British adult males in the 1970s), the cars with only a single carburettor, have a maximum un-braked trailer towing weight limit of less than 200 kg.

Similarly, if the cars were carrying no luggage and only four people having an average weight of 88•9 kg = 14 st 0 lbs (VERY MUCH heavier than I would wish to be, but many British adult males and some adult females are now much heavier than this!), they would be carrying their maximum payload of circa 355•7 kg; implying that the cars with only a single carburettor would have a maximum towing limit of ZERO kg for an un-braked trailer and all the cars would have no reserve payload for luggage in the boot!

I wonder whether similar towing-weight restrictions also apply to the Triumph 1300 & 1300TC, Triumph 1500 & 1500TC and the Triumph Dolomite 1300, 1500, 1500HL, 1850, 1850HL & Sprint!?! Given that the Triumph Toledo towing-weight restrictions might have originally been defined for early model-years with front drum brakes, it would be of interest to learn, whether the same restrictions also apply to the Triumph Dolomite 1300 & 1500, which were only available with front disc brakes!?!

The preceding analysis suggests that the Triumph Toledo 1300 has a minimal towing capacity, even under ideal circumstances, so I was interested to discover what limitations British motoring law might impose. Amongst other things, the following website link states that from a legal standpoint, the maximum gross trailer weight (i.e. maximum combined weight of the unladen trailer and its payload) of an un-braked trailer, must not exceed 750 kg, or half the towing vehicle's kerb-weight, whichever is the lesser of the two.

Parkers, “Towing - the laws you need to know”, 22nd February 2018

https://www.parkers.co.uk/company-cars/2013/towing/

In the case of my four-door Triumph Toledo 1300 with single carburettor, the kerb-weight is 17¼ cwt (i.e. 875 kg | 876•6 kg by calculation), so legally my car is said to be limited to towing an un-braked trailer, with a maximum gross trailer weight of 438•3 kg (i.e. 876•6 kg ÷ 2), which seems much more useful than the 0~200 kg figure (dependent upon the towing-vehicle’s payload) defined in the official BLMC triumph Toledo publications.

However, information presented in the UK Government website implies that the 0~200 kg figure might be the legal limit for the Triumph Toledo, given that the vehicle manufacturer had specified in the official workshop manual (a publication that was not commonly available to car owners), but not the “owners’ handbook” or “chassis plate”, what is now described as the GCW - Gross Combination Weight or GTW – Gross Train Weight.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... the-basics

« The weight and size of trailer that you can tow depends on at least 7 key factors. Any maximum weight specified under any of these cannot be exceeded - even if other criteria seem to permit a higher weight. »

« 1. The capability of the towing vehicle »

« The chassis plate on the vehicle (see table in Section 7) states the maximum weights allowed - the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the Gross Combination Weight (GCW). »

« The vehicle handbook will either repeat what is on the chassis plate, or for convenience, might directly specify the maximum weight of trailer (eg 750kg) which is allowed to be towed. The V5C registration certificate often shows this too, under sections O1 and O2 (depending on whether trailer has brakes or not). Exceeding any of the above weights is likely to be construed as using a vehicle in a dangerous condition. »

« Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the ‘actual’ weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW. »


I wonder how many braked, light-weight, general-purpose & camping trailers with over-run brakes are available, given that the towing weight limit specified by BLMC for the Triumph Toledo is 15 cwt (i.e. 762¼ kg by calculation), which is very much more than 0~200 kg or even 438•3 kg for an un-braked trailer!?!

Also in the Towing Information sub-section on Page 04-3, of Section 04 – General Specification Data, of the official loose-leaf BLMC Triumph Toledo 1300 & 1500 Repair Operation Manual [Part No. 545168, Issue 3], are the maximum starting gradients and maximum climbable gradients for a fully-laden car & trailer, for the Triumph Toledo 1300, 1500 & 1500TC.

Engine | 1300 single-carb | 1500 single-carb | 1500 twin-carb

Maximum starting gradient | 1 in 6•5 | 1 in 5•8 | 1 in 5•7

Maximum climbable gradient | 1 in 5•0 | 1 in 4•5 | 1 in 4•4

In stating maximum gradients, the workshop manual does not specify whether the trailer is of the un-braked or braked type, whose specified maximum weights are 3•94 cwt (i.e. 200 kg) and 15 cwt (i.e. 762¼ kg by calculation) respectively. However, until I find more precise information, I would probably be wise to avoid any hill steeper than 1 in 6•5, when the car is close to being fully laden; especially as my effective final-drive ratio will be lower than the factory-standard 4•11:1 with 155 SR13 tyres (e.g. 3•89:1 with either 185/65 R15, 185/60 R15 or 185/55 R15 tyres)!

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Towing weight?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:45 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:59 pm
Posts: 311
Quote:
suspended tow recovery vehicles, (good old Harvey Frost)
Happy days! I've still got my tubular Harvey frost. I just can't bring myself to get rid of it. I had it mounted on an ex-US military Dodge 4x4 crewcab and in its time it was a great piece of kit.

_________________
Currently over 35 years worth of fixing 35 boxes.
Hoping to reach 65 years worth of fixing 65 boxes.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot [Bot] and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited