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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:49 pm 
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Well I meant that I thought the V8 could be further back in the Dolomite than the TR8 in relation to where the slant-4 sits in the Dolomite and TR7. I take the point that it's still forward with respect to the lines of the front wheels, but that's not what I meant.

Don't give me short of money - BL had just started getting shedloads under Don Ryder's recovery plan in the Ryder Report. His guess was near to £3 billion to 1985 - inc. the paltry sum of £270 million of operating capital upfront -, but there's suggestions it were nearer £10 Billion by the time Edwardes had done with the government. So, for them programmes that made it through the bankruptcy of 1974, it should have been a happy time till 1 Nov 1977 - had it not been for the Castle Bromwich body builders, BL toolmakers, Lucas toolmakers, and Coventry axle workers. Did I miss anyone?

Graham
As someone who has stuffed unlikely stuff into a Dolomite engine bay (including attempting a Rover V8, which I passed on as too difficult technically) I think I can call myself something of an expert. And it leaves me uniquely qualified to understand the position of the engineers at Triumph when they were faced with fitting first the 1850 and later the Sprint into a hole it wasn't made for.

And what I reckon, is that the problem begins and ends with the front subframe. Notwithstanding that there are no less than 4 different subframes, not counting FWD derivatives (if any) they are all derived from the "long A" model fitted to the first Toledos which is, in turn the same as or derived from the 1300FWD part.

So there they were, stuck with the Long A, triple bar frame. It would have been easier to design a new frame that wasn't so bulky or restrictive but they settled for minimum mods to make it work. (cost is the only reason that makes sense, this was all done and productionised BEFORE the banrupty of 74 so they WERE skint) So for the 1850, Sprint and 1500auto, they chopped off the long A and put the closer coupled, cranked leg on the back. This, in my considered opinion, is where they shot themselves in the foot, as it is this particular space, between the 2nd and 3rd rails of the subframe, as I know from bitter experience, that MUST be occupied by the bellhousing and this governs the position of everything else to within an inch or so either way. The rack on top of the centre leg and behind the axle line is just the icing on the difficulty cake, making it nearly impossible to move that centre leg forward and allow a decent sump size to fit at the rear of the engine.

Now as a modder, I have played fast and loose with the subframes on my cars as that is legitimate and only costs me 2 points on the 8 point rule, so long as I keep the suspension anchorages and steering stock, i'm OK. But that means the centre member and the rack above it must stay put or I lose more points that I CAN'T spare. Problem number 1!

The "no cutting the shell" bit of the 8 point rule also means I can't alter the bulkhead AT ALL, so the hypothetical V8 must fit ahead of the stock bulkhead. And here comes problem number 2, A V8 IS longer than a 4 in line because the banks are staggered to line up with the rods on the crank journals, that's the first 3 or 4 extra inches to find. Then take account that the V8 has an oversquare design and the pistons are bigger in diameter, not a lot, maybe only 1/2" each, but that's another 2" that needs to be found. And it mostly needs to be found at the front of the bay cos the position of the bellhousing is fixed by the blankety-blank subframe. I won't bore you with problem 3 (where to put the offside downpipe) and all the others, Suffice it to say that I reckoned, to engineer the Rover V8 in properly, I'd have to dry sump it AND run an electric water pump. (to save space at the rad end, the stock pump is VERY long)

When I was contemplating this job, I didn't know it had been done, several times before. Now I DO know, my hat is off to those who accomplished it. It certainly looked a bridge too far for me, so I went with the KISS principal, fitted the Carlton engine instead and the rest, as they say, is history. With the benefit of hindsight, I think I made the right choice!

Steve

PS, Who else did you miss? All the lovely folk at the Speke works for a start! (though "works" is a misnomer, mainly, they didn't!)

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:38 pm 
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PS, Who else did you miss? All the lovely folk at the Speke works for a start! (though "works" is a misnomer, mainly, they didn't!)
The 1 Nov. date excludes the 17-week (1 Nov. 1977 to 27 Feb. 1978) long strike at Speke.

As to before that, interestingly, according to Dr Brian Marren of Liverpool University History Dept., "Closer examination of the labour record at BL Speke reveals that the plant had not experienced any labour unrest for five years prior to 1978: an excellent record by British motor industry standards and especially impressive for a Merseyside workforce. One national newspaper [The Times] stated that the Speke facility, prior to the 18 week [sic] strike in 1977–78, displayed an ‘enviable labour relations record’" I spoke with him about the reference to "before 1978" and he meant before the 17-week strike of 1977-1978. So, read it as five years prior to 1 Nov. 1977.

An inspection of why Speke was closed for so much of 1977 [I, personally, haven't looked at other years to the same level of detail] shows that was for the list of actions given: in Feb-March, for the Castle Bromwich body plant action and the overlapping BL-wide toolrooms dispute; according to Peter Dunnett, "In August Lucas toolmakers closed the whole industry"; according to AROnline, that was followed closely, perhaps contiguously, by a closure for the Coventry axle workers' 6-week strike; and the strike at Speke was started on the day the workforce returned from that.

As to the record at Speke in the other years before, the only indecent I can easily find details on is the supposedly infamous "Cat Pee Strike" of 1975. That lasted all of 3 days and caused less then 500 lay-offs. The Castle Bromwich and BL toolroom disputes lasted weeks and, according to Hansard, etc., caused more than twenty thousand and forty thousands layoffs in BL respectively. I think the Coventry axle strike also caused 10s of thousands. And even I remember the Lucas toolmakers' dispute; and I was, like St Paul the Apostle, "stoned as a heretic" for most of the mid 70s.

Dr Marran also addresses why it was widely reported in the local and national press that the the closures at Speke were caused by the workforce there, rather than outside (as I can attest to for most of 1977 at least). He describes how it was that BL management organized that misinformation campaign. He also describes, in some detail, how, in order to give an excuse to close Speke rather than one of the core plants in the Midlands and, apparently with the explicit approval of Jim Callaghan, BL management orchestrated the 1 Nov. strike by speeding up one of the production lines without the previously agreed discussions, and then dragged the negotiations out until it could be safely announced that Speke No 2 plant was to close and production moved to Canley - No 1 plant continued to operate until 1981, apparently with the good industrial relations continuing there. IIRC it is Peter Dunnett who states the plans to close Speke No 1 go back well before the accession of Edwades as CEO, though it might have been ARonline - it would take a while to find the actual quote. It's also documented that he'd been easing into that role for weeks, and he was then largely unknown outside Chloride and the NEB. So, prior to the strike, he wouldn't have been widely known to be a man coming to do a hatchet job on Speke - not so much that the strike could be organized within hours of the announcement.

So, it was not the announcement of Edwardes' move from his part-time role on the National Enterprise Board (which effectively owned BL for HMG after its virtual bankruptcy and nationalization in 1975) to be CEO of BL that caused the strike at Speke. Rather, I suspect, it was BL management finally having the chance to cause the strike there, after many weeks of it being closed for outside reasons, that caused the announcement.

And that misinformation campaign on the state of industrial relations at Speke seems to have worked well enough and stopped the rest of BL taking umbridge at its closure. Actually, with much of the rest of BL feeling glad it was Speke taking the hit, not them; and, perhaps, finding rationalizations to avoid any guilt in feeling that: like them Scousers being a bunch of lazy bastards what deserve it anyway - a very human response.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:37 pm 
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Quote:

PS, Who else did you miss? All the lovely folk at the Speke works for a start! (though "works" is a misnomer, mainly, they didn't!)
The 1 Nov. date excludes the 17-week (1 Nov. 1977 to 27 Feb. 1978) long strike at Speke.

As to before that, interestingly, according to Dr Brian Marren of Liverpool University History Dept., "Closer examination of the labour record at BL Speke reveals that the plant had not experienced any labour unrest for five years prior to 1978: an excellent record by British motor industry standards and especially impressive for a Merseyside workforce. One national newspaper [The Times] stated that the Speke facility, prior to the 18 week [sic] strike in 1977–78, displayed an ‘enviable labour relations record’" I spoke with him about the reference to "before 1978" and he meant before the 17-week strike of 1977-1978. So, read it as five years prior to 1 Nov. 1977.

An inspection of why Speke was closed for so much of 1977 [I, personally, haven't looked at other years to the same level of detail] shows that was for the list of actions given: in Feb-March, for the Castle Bromwich body plant action and the overlapping BL-wide toolrooms dispute; according to Peter Dunnett, "In August Lucas toolmakers closed the whole industry"; according to AROnline, that was followed closely, perhaps contiguously, by a closure for the Coventry axle workers' 6-week strike; and the strike at Speke was started on the day the workforce returned from that.

As to the record at Speke in the other years before, the only indecent I can easily find details on is the supposedly infamous "Cat Pee Strike" of 1975. That lasted all of 3 days and caused less then 500 lay-offs. The Castle Bromwich and BL toolroom disputes lasted weeks and, according to Hansard, etc., caused more than twenty thousand and forty thousands layoffs in BL respectively. I think the Coventry axle strike also caused 10s of thousands. And even I remember the Lucas toolmakers' dispute; and I was, like St Paul the Apostle, "stoned as a heretic" for most of the mid 70s.

Dr Marran also addresses why it was widely reported in the local and national press that the the closures at Speke were caused by the workforce there, rather than outside (as I can attest to for most of 1977 at least). He describes how it was that BL management organized that misinformation campaign. He also describes, in some detail, how, in order to give an excuse to close Speke rather than one of the core plants in the Midlands and, apparently with the explicit approval of Jim Callaghan, BL management orchestrated the 1 Nov. strike by speeding up one of the production lines without the previously agreed discussions, and then dragged the negotiations out until it could be safely announced that Speke No 2 plant was to close and production moved to Canley - No 1 plant continued to operate until 1981, apparently with the good industrial relations continuing there. IIRC it is Peter Dunnett who states the plans to close Speke No 1 go back well before the accession of Edwades as CEO, though it might have been ARonline - it would take a while to find the actual quote. It's also documented that he'd been easing into that role for weeks, and he was then largely unknown outside Chloride and the NEB. So, prior to the strike, he wouldn't have been widely known to be a man coming to do a hatchet job on Speke - not so much that the strike could be organized within hours of the announcement.

So, it was not the announcement of Edwardes' move from his part-time role on the National Enterprise Board (which effectively owned BL for HMG after its virtual bankruptcy and nationalization in 1975) to be CEO of BL that caused the strike at Speke. Rather, I suspect, it was BL management finally having the chance to cause the strike there, after many weeks of it being closed for outside reasons, that caused the announcement.

And that misinformation campaign on the state of industrial relations at Speke seems to have worked well enough and stopped the rest of BL taking umbridge at its closure. Actually, with much of the rest of BL feeling glad it was Speke taking the hit, not them; and, perhaps, finding rationalizations to avoid any guilt in feeling that: like them Scousers being a bunch of lazy bastards what deserve it anyway - a very human response.

Graham
Thank you very much for that exhaustive and informative analysis of the situation at Speke. You learn something new every day!

I guess I should have known better, with QI proving weekly that anything "everybody knows" is almost certainly BS and history being written by the winners. I too have long believed (without evidence but "everybody knew it") that the Speke workers were indeed a skiving bunch of Scousers. Possibly they were, some of the stories i've heard from people with personal experience of the goings on at "the Austin" in the 70s would curl your hair and then turn it white! But they could equally have been saints by comparison to their comrades at Longbridge.

My only excuse for my ignorance (truly inexcusable) is that I had been married exactly 3 weeks on Nov 1st '77. My mind wasn't exactly on BL shop floor politics!

Unable to do so in person, I apologise here for my former opinion of the Speke workforce, they were obviously dumped on from a great height by management and made a scapegoat for a problem that was not of their making.

Steve

PS, we've wandered far from our muttons here, probably best let this thread get back on topic!

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:25 pm 
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Well that it got a bit off topic is true, and I may be a bit sensitive to suggestions other than that the workforce at Speke No 2 got the clarty end of the stick, and were handed it by a set of pretty heartless bastards. But no story is ever really all black and white. Though it is good when they're read.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:20 pm 
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Well that it got a bit off topic is true, and I may be a bit sensitive to suggestions other than that the workforce at Speke No 2 got the clarty end of the stick, and were handed it by a set of pretty heartless bastards. But no story is ever really all black and white. Though it is good when they're read.

Graham
Hi

Thanks for the history lesson, Being born in 85, and not experiencing labour disputes, I always blame greedy managers and shareholders, first time to hear from people that were there calling the worker all lazy and skivers.

Perhaps my views have been influenced by all the ex miners I worked with offshore from Wales / Newcastle in my early career offshore in the oil industry, they were all great workers, but what was done to them sounded sickening. My Journeyman was Scouser who worked in ICI Runcorn and again from him it was the powers at be, not the workers at fault, but I suppose no-one wants to think of them self as the problem.

Regards

Barry

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:14 pm 
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Hi

I have now done a 12 mile round trip with my rear disc conversion and I am very happy with it, below is the tests I have done so far (any other suggestions?).

The only issue I have is the brake pedal travel seems a bit longer, I am assuming this probably air in the system or could I need a bigger brake master? (fitted is a Girling 0.75) .

First test - Progressively harder and hard testing till wheels locked. During a hard emergency stop I could only get the front wheels to lock

Second test - I tried braking hard while turning and did not feel like the back felt anything other than stable.

Third test - Up to 40 miles and hour and a few round abouts and all felt well

Forth test - 12 mile round trip up to 60 on some B roads with spirted driving.

First test was on a quite long straight in an industrial estate near my hose. Second at the bus terminus ALL IN THE DRY.

I have 15inch MG TF wheels with brand new Avon ZR7 tyres at 32psi, Front brakes are Tracker jack conversion with 54mm ford puma calipers and 239mm discs.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:28 pm 
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Hi

I have now done a 12 mile round trip with my rear disc conversion and I am very happy with it, below is the tests I have done so far (any other suggestions?).

The only issue I have is the brake pedal travel seems a bit longer, I am assuming this probably air in the system or could I need a bigger brake master? (fitted is a Girling 0.75) .

First test - Progressively harder and hard testing till wheels locked. During a hard emergency stop I could only get the front wheels to lock

Second test - I tried braking hard while turning and did not feel like the back felt anything other than stable.

Third test - Up to 40 miles and hour and a few round abouts and all felt well

Forth test - 12 mile round trip up to 60 on some B roads with spirted driving.

First test was on a quite long straight in an industrial estate near my hose. Second at the bus terminus ALL IN THE DRY.

I have 15inch MG TF wheels with brand new Avon ZR7 tyres at 32psi, Front brakes are Tracker jack conversion with 54mm ford puma calipers and 239mm discs.
Your long pedal is indeed the result of fitting calipers on the rear, exacerbated by the 6mm increase in front piston diameter from 48mm to 54mm which is concomitant with the TJ conversion. Now you have increased the rear piston diameter from 16mm of the original wheel cylinders to whatever the MGF rear pistons are (probably near double)

The normal "help" of reducing the rear wheel cylinder dia is denied you, as far as I can see, your only choices are a) live with it, or b) fit a bigger bore master cylinder to equalize things.

However i'm pleased to learn that the new rear discs aren't overpowering the fronts, though i'd like to try it (cautiously) in the wet too, before passing it fit for service! After all, it's often "wet" here!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:41 pm 
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Hi Steve

Thanks for the info, maybe I can find something suitable like the Wildwood item below. I will have to do some digging into the specs and outlets of the Girling 0.75 I already have and see if I can find something larger.

Glad I don't have to bleed them again, removing wheel and brake fluid are my 2 least favourite thing!

https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_i ... s_id=10443

Regards

Barry

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:39 pm 
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Hi Steve

Thanks for the info, maybe I can find something suitable like the Wildwood item below. I will have to do some digging into the specs and outlets of the Girling 0.75 I already have and see if I can find something larger.

Glad I don't have to bleed them again, removing wheel and brake fluid are my 2 least favourite thing!

https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_i ... s_id=10443

Regards

Barry
I think i'd be looking at a 22mm (7/8") or 24mm (15/16") bore cylinder. The critical/difficult bit is not so much getting the bore right as finding a cylinder with the correct mounting bolt spacing and orientation.

Are you already on dual circuit?

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Yes indeed....
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:21 pm 
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I think i'd be looking at a 22mm (7/8") or 24mm (15/16") bore cylinder. The critical/difficult bit is not so much getting the bore right as finding a cylinder with the correct mounting bolt spacing and orientation.

Steve
22.2mm bore Saab 99/900 brake master cylinders fit straight on.

These are readily available
but you will need to find a reservoir, which might be more of a challenge?
(A Dolomite reservoir may work but the seals are a different shape?)



Ian.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:54 am 
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Hi Steve

I am on a single circuit (only on output from my master clyinder) but I would prefer duel as when the master failed, even moving it out my garage was scary to have no brakes!

Ian

As below, they all like like they are for duel circuit brakes and mine is a single?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333863500014 ... Sw6GZgB-kl

Regards

Barry

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:23 pm 
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A volvo 940 mastercylinder also fits straight on and I think has a 7/8 bore iirc, I loved all round disc brakes on my car, could stand on the brakes from any speed and there was zero issues with stability just a nice linear response and smooth with it!, next to no fade (v8 perfomance aside) and none of that awfull drum harmonics when braking from speed.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:20 pm 
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Hi Steve

I am on a single circuit (only on output from my master clyinder) but I would prefer duel as when the master failed, even moving it out my garage was scary to have no brakes!

Ian

As below, they all like like they are for duel circuit brakes and mine is a single?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333863500014 ... Sw6GZgB-kl

Regards

Barry
Barry

Out of curiosity how did you run your hand brake cables,did you use the sprint hand brake cables ,i used Rover 45 cables on mine

Dave


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 Post subject: Okay..,
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:00 pm 
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Hi Steve

I am on a single circuit (only on output from my master clyinder) but I would prefer duel as when the master failed, even moving it out my garage was scary to have no brakes!

Ian

As below, they all like like they are for duel circuit brakes and mine is a single?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333863500014 ... Sw6GZgB-kl

Regards

Barry
I have only ever seen dual circuit brake master cylinders, but I am not familiar with the earliest
Saab 99 variants.

There is actually loads of dual circuit 22.2mm bore BMCs of the era that will fit a Dolomite servo,
however a lot of the applications were angled BMC installations, rendering their reservoirs unsuitable
for our cars.


Ian

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 8:33 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Hi Steve

I am on a single circuit (only on output from my master clyinder) but I would prefer duel as when the master failed, even moving it out my garage was scary to have no brakes!

Ian

As below, they all like like they are for duel circuit brakes and mine is a single?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333863500014 ... Sw6GZgB-kl

Regards

Barry
Barry

Out of curiosity how did you run your hand brake cables,did you use the sprint hand brake cables ,i used Rover 45 cables on mine

Dave
Hi Dave

I just used the standard hand brake cables (but I had to drill out the MG Caliper arms to 6.5mm to take the pin).
Although they are adjusted to the max at the calipers. I am going to fit new ones eventually as the ones fitted look past there best!

Regards

Barry


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Hand brake first attempt.jpg
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