Advice on 8 point rule

[Lghall37@outlook.com]

Hi guys and girls.

So some background before my question is I am going to do an engine swap on my Toledo I talked about it in another post asking for advice, it looks as though I won't be able to recover my Alfa v6 busso engine so my thinking has been to move towards a swap with something that might be easier so I've been looking at the Tracking and wheelbase dimensions for other cars to try and find something that might be a straightforward swap, however I do want to do something a little bit different so I was thinking a 2003 Audi TT quattro with about 225bhp these are a 4wd car which is something I'd really love to do as I had thought about doing a 4wd Toledo before the busso engine. On a side note many different cars (seat Leon, audi tt quattro, skoda octavia ect) they share the same BAM 225 engine and engine performance upgrades are abundant and able to reach about 270bhp. after doing some research ive found the tracking is 1.5 inches difference and the wheelbase is about 5 inches difference each side which is fine as I intended to put a wide arch sprint speed kit on which would cover this anyway, I don't mind having some engineering done to get around issues.

Now for the problem I face, I need to follow the 8 point rule which was told to me on my previous post, I won't be editing the monocoque shell so that's 5 points but need to pick up some more points to retain the original registration so I'm thinking of retaining the original suspension or making brackets to take the new audi hub, brakes, rear diff ect using the Toledo shocks and control arms ect at the front and will likely have to use the audi control arms at the rear as I'd be removing the rear axle but that allows me to 2 more points if I keep the original suspension and then I need 1 more point. engine, transmission, axles are being changed, the chassis is staying unedited, I'm hoping to keep the steering and suspension unedited asides some bespoke mounting brackets, is it possible to keep the original steering as I've seen with other engine swapped dolly/tollys they've managed to keep the original steering ect, also does changing the brakes count as changing the suspension or axles? As on the dvla website it doesn't confirm what part the brakes are counted as?

I will contact Dan brown at some stage maybe after Christmas in regards to this if the general concensus going by responses on here is that it might be a viable and unusual build option unless anyone can firmly say a reason it wouldn't work ect then I'll keep searching for a potential donor car, I'm sure we all would love to see a 4wd Toledo I was thinking I'd call it the TToledo or something if it was possible many thanks!

[Carledo]

The good news is that brakes are free, they aren't mentioned one way or the other, so the general asumption is "do what you like".

My theory with the rule is to keep the steering and suspension design and mount points stock, this, along with the 5 point unmodified shell, gives me a 9 point car. You can mess with spring rates and shox, so long as they fit the standard mounting points.

This lets you play fast and loose with the front subframe (which is what the rule describes as the front "axle") you loose both "axle" points this way, but the bonus is, if you've lost them already by modding the subframe, changing out the rear axle is effectively free.

I'd quite like to see a 4wd Toledo or Dolomite and it's technically possible, the factory actually built one in a 1300FWD body using a "pony" transfer box from an obscure 4wd off roader built under licence from Triumph for the Isreali military. The Pony wasn't a great success and gearboxes are still floating around in the UK. The factory built car WAS pretty successful in the then new sport of autocross but it's appetite for transmissions meant it was never duplicated. In truth, the Pony transmission with it's very low final drive ratios was too weak, even for a well tuned 1300 (still sub 100bhp)

I think you'll have your work cut out for you to get 4wd AND stay within the 8 point rule, the idea has been proposed before, several times, but nothing has turned up "in the tin" yet! But i'd be happy to be proved wrong and I wish you the best of luck!

Steve

[SprintV8]

I doubt very much you’ll stick within the 8 Rule.
Bam engine transversely (East-West) mounted gearbox as well you’ll need to cut the shell.
Even mounted (North-south) I also doubt you’ll find a gearbox without cutting the shell.
That’s 5 Points lost already.
Different Engine and Gearbox, That’s another 3.
Thats 8 points Allready.

And you still have the Suspension and steering to sort.

Love a project
4x4 got to be done.
But could end up losing the original Registration.


I did see a 105E anglia with full 4x4 Sierra running gear.
Chop the body off the Sierra then stuck the Anglia Shell on top.

[cleverusername]

I don't think you can do it, I would have thought that the control arms would count as part of the suspension. Even with my Sprint conversion, I am only just in the rules at 9 point. Though I do think the rules are a bit arbitrary, surely switching to an axle and subframe from the same model shouldn't knock points off?

I think you're looking at a Q plate, which would mean an IVA. Of course that depends on how closely they look at things. I am sure there will be people here who modify cars who know how far you can push the rules.

[Bumpa]

Mr Hall says "Now for the problem I face, I need to follow the 8 point rule which was told to me on my previous post, I won't be editing the monocoque shell so that's 5 points but need to pick up some more points to retain the original registration "

Have the rules changed about registrations? I put my MGB GT V8 conversion on the road in 2009. It has a Range Rover 3.9 injected engine with Rover 5-speed 'box. To fit these I had to chop the engine bay about quite a lot as mine is an early car before MG considered using the V8. I had to change the engine mounting points totally, move the radiator forwards, reshape the bulkheads and raise the height of the tunnel for the gearbox.

Then I fitted power steering and modified the front suspension with coil-over-shocks and much bigger disc brakes. At the rear it is fully independent using Ford Sierra diff and shortened drive shafts, plus Sierra rear discs.

The only slight downside as far as I am concerned is that the car must have an annual MOT despite being 51 years old, but that's no hardship and is a good idea anyway. It still carries the original registration number.

Why are you worried about losing the reg?

[Lghall37@outlook.com]

The good news is that brakes are free, they aren't mentioned one way or the other, so the general asumption is "do what you like".

My theory with the rule is to keep the steering and suspension design and mount points stock, this, along with the 5 point unmodified shell, gives me a 9 point car. You can mess with spring rates and shox, so long as they fit the standard mounting points.

This lets you play fast and loose with the front subframe (which is what the rule describes as the front "axle") you loose both "axle" points this way, but the bonus is, if you've lost them already by modding the subframe, changing out the rear axle is effectively free.

I'd quite like to see a 4wd Toledo or Dolomite and it's technically possible, the factory actually built one in a 1300FWD body using a "pony" transfer box from an obscure 4wd off roader built under licence from Triumph for the Isreali military. The Pony wasn't a great success and gearboxes are still floating around in the UK. The factory built car WAS pretty successful in the then new sport of autocross but it's appetite for transmissions meant it was never duplicated. In truth, the Pony transmission with it's very low final drive ratios was too weak, even for a well tuned 1300 (still sub 100bhp)

I think you'll have your work cut out for you to get 4wd AND stay within the 8 point rule, the idea has been proposed before, several times, but nothing has turned up "in the tin" yet! But i'd be happy to be proved wrong and I wish you the best of luck!

Steve

I'm glad to hear the brakes are free to change out as I intended to use the pretty much all the standard audi parts and just mod them to take the original suspension and steering which would leave me 9 points which should hopefully get me thru the IVA 8 point system, as for the shocks and spring rates I wasn't aware I could change them provided they fit the original mounting points does this mean I can change the brand provided it fits or just change the height/stiffness of them?

As for the front subframe I'd either use the audi subframe and modify it to mount to the Toledo mount points and to take the original steering, or do you think it'd be easier to use the Toledo subframe and modify it to take the engine and gearbox?

I'll definitely look into the pony transfer box in more detail but as you said if it does go through transmissions that quickly I'm not sure it'd be viable but definitely an interesting read!

I'd certainly like to build a 4wd especially if it's not really been done asides by triumph itd be a fun but difficult build but we'll worth it! I found out that the audi tt quattro came in a colour called dolomite grey so perhaps I'll repaint it in that colour as a nod to its audi history . Many thanks for the advice definitely appreciate it since you've been through this 8 point system before!
Out of curiosity how do the dvla / iva check that it confirms to the 8 point rule is it through an inspection centre or mot ect? Many thanks

[Lghall37@outlook.com]

Mr Hall says "Now for the problem I face, I need to follow the 8 point rule which was told to me on my previous post, I won't be editing the monocoque shell so that's 5 points but need to pick up some more points to retain the original registration "

Have the rules changed about registrations? I put my MGB GT V8 conversion on the road in 2009. It has a Range Rover 3.9 injected engine with Rover 5-speed 'box. To fit these I had to chop the engine bay about quite a lot as mine is an early car before MG considered using the V8. I had to change the engine mounting points totally, move the radiator forwards, reshape the bulkheads and raise the height of the tunnel for the gearbox.

Then I fitted power steering and modified the front suspension with coil-over-shocks and much bigger disc brakes. At the rear it is fully independent using Ford Sierra diff and shortened drive shafts, plus Sierra rear discs.

The only slight downside as far as I am concerned is that the car must have an annual MOT despite being 51 years old, but that's no hardship and is a good idea anyway. It still carries the original registration number.

Why are you worried about losing the reg?

I'm not sure if they have changed since 2009 but it now says on the government's website regarding the 8 point rules for modified vehicles that 5 of the 8 points need to come from the unmodified chassis/monocoque to retain its original registration so this must have changed since 2009 if you don't have a Q Plate.

The good news for my car is as long as the engine fits in the bay I shouldn't need to modify the monocoque chassis even if I turned the engine around so its longitudinally mounted as my tunnel on my car can be unbolted so since that isn't a welded piece and it's removable (ie bolted on) then I suspect that doesn't count towards the monocoque chassis so I could fabricate a new tunnel that accommodates the gearbox if I need to!

In regards to the Annual MOT it's something I put all myclassic cars through frequently anyway just to stay on top of any small bits that need doing or if I hear a small knock or squeak ill take it in for a good look over if I can't diagnose it myself.

Retaining the original reg isn't a necessity by any means but I'm just attached to it as part of the cars history as I've found a few pictures of it online in Italy from a few owners back and I'd just like to continue that history with this new chapter in the cars life whilst retaining the original reg, it's much like the way I decided not to scrap the car after its crash and buy a duplicate one is because I'm attached to it and most people would say their cars have personalities in the way they have their unique flaws and quirks that can't be replicated in another car so much in that way it'd mean a great deal to retain it but by all means if I can't then I'll get over it, but also if I did ever sell it on which I very much doubt but if I did it'd give someone the option to restore it back to original without the Q Plate.

Your v8 MG sounds insane though many thanks!

[TrustNo1]

I'm not sure if they have changed since 2009 but it now says on the government's website regarding the 8 point rules for modified vehicles that 5 of the 8 points need to come from the unmodified chassis/monocoque to retain its original registration so this must have changed since 2009 if you don't have a Q Plate.

The rules haven't changed. you MUST have an unmodified monocoque to retain the original reg.
BUT the DVLA will only know if you tell them which is why people get away with it

[cliftyhanger]

The rules haven't changed. you MUST have an unmodified monocoque to retain the original reg.
BUT the DVLA will only know if you tell them which is why people get away with it

That's the problem. There are stacks of cars out there that have been seriously butchered about, and should be IVA'd. But owners are either ignorant or ignoring the rules. And everything is fine for them. Right up to the point when TSHTF. And then you really are in the poo poo.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ldren.html

[SprintV8]

That is probably not a good example

A modified Land Rover with Big wheels and tyres
Done up like a Racing Camel Desert Land Rover
Still with its original Engine Gearbox Axles ETC.

But just badly maintained ( rephrase that Not maintained)
Different size brake callipers on the same axle.
Police report makes interesting reading.

[bazyerma]

The rules haven't changed. you MUST have an unmodified monocoque to retain the original reg.
BUT the DVLA will only know if you tell them which is why people get away with it

That's the problem. There are stacks of cars out there that have been seriously butchered about, and should be IVA'd. But owners are either ignorant or ignoring the rules. And everything is fine for them. Right up to the point when TSHTF. And then you really are in the poo poo.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ldren.html

Also not a good example as everything the Daily Hatemail writes is fiction / bile.

[TrustNo1]

The rules haven't changed. you MUST have an unmodified monocoque to retain the original reg.
BUT the DVLA will only know if you tell them which is why people get away with it

That's the problem. There are stacks of cars out there that have been seriously butchered about, and should be IVA'd. But owners are either ignorant or ignoring the rules. And everything is fine for them. Right up to the point when TSHTF. And then you really are in the poo poo.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ldren.html

Also not a good example as everything the Daily Hatemail writes is fiction / bile.

I may be a DFail article but the story is true and as said there are cars out there being driven that have had dangerous body mods, last year a on a Dolomite related FB page someone posted a pic of his car which he had cut the floor AND sills to put an exhaust through it as well as cutting a chunk out of the bulkhead, i got shot down in flames when i mentioned how dangerous it was and would need an IVA (or whatever they are calling them now) because it wasn't my car and shouldn't comment on stuff i know nothing about and he knew how to weld so it all ok.

[cleverusername]

That's the problem. There are stacks of cars out there that have been seriously butchered about, and should be IVA'd. But owners are either ignorant or ignoring the rules. And everything is fine for them. Right up to the point when TSHTF. And then you really are in the poo poo.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ldren.html

Also not a good example as everything the Daily Hatemail writes is fiction / bile.

I may be a DFail article but the story is true and as said there are cars out there being driven that have had dangerous body mods, last year a on a Dolomite related FB page someone posted a pic of his car which he had cut the floor AND sills to put an exhaust through it as well as cutting a chunk out of the bulkhead, i got shot down in flames when i mentioned how dangerous it was and would need an IVA (or whatever they are calling them now) because it wasn't my car and shouldn't comment on stuff i know nothing about and he knew how to weld so it all ok.

Ignore them, they haven't got a clue what they are doing and need to be called on their stupidity. Anyone who feel otherwise is free to show me their structural calculations, showing me how the modifications have affected the stiffness of the shell, its crash performance and loads are transferred through the body. Such calculations certainly aren't impossible, I suspect this laptop has the power to do if I had the right finite element software and enough time.

Actually there are a few members here that I think could actually do such a thing, there is some impressive engineering on this site but I suspect that the members capable of doing such engineering aren't the ones hacking their bodyshell to bits.

[jikovron]

I ditched my v8 conversion due to the 8 point rule as its impossible to fit a rover v8 to a dolomite without cutting the bulkhead and prop tunnel so are a clear Q plate candidate.
I looked at getting an IVA test however no one does the required E marked glass, and amazingly the equivalent BS mark is not acceptable.
Interestingly the IVA has only a visual assessment of the structure and no stress calculations are required,,I mean if you can visualise the stressed imparted through a shell and make a grounded estimation of what sort of structure is required and have experience in 'live' fabrication then a comprehensive stress analysis is not required,,,obviously stupid obvious things like subframes with the front crossmember cut off, exhausts through sills and missmatched brake calipers are the stuff even my 4 year old child could spot.

[Carledo]

Ok here's the thing, leaving aside for a moment the whys and wherefores of modding and the engineering qualifications of those who do them (or lack thereof)

When you have built your frankensteins monster, you are obliged to notify DVLA that the engine number and capacity (if that is different too) have been changed. You may be asked to provide provenance for the engine. You are not obliged or required to tell them about anything else you've done. No one will ask you either. No one will want to inspect your work, beyond an MOT tester and he won't CARE what you've done, as long as HE thinks it's safe. It's not part of a tester's remit to do DVLA's dirty work by deciding if your car meets the 8 point rule and he won't try. If you've done a proper job, as you should, he may even congratulate you!

You may well ask, "why should I worry myself about this stupid rule if I can flout it with impunity?"

This is not entirely the case! A small but growing number of modified cars, I myself know of maybe a handful, have had their registration numbers revoked and the car banned from the road by DVLA until and unless they are submitted for and pass a BIVA exam, whereupon they will be given a Q plate and may be returned to the road. Without of course the benefit of any "historic car" privileges. In every case the car has NOT been examined AT ALL by DVLA, the owners just got a letter saying this action has been taken, no explanation, no apparent right of appeal.

Now it must be said, that in all the cases I am privy to, the vehicle in question has been a high profile, massively modified one, Sit-up-and-beg Ford Pops with tube chassis, GRP body and huge blown V8 motor type of car where the owner/builder is, quite frankly, taking the p*ss and the only part of the car that bears any relationship to the original is the number plate. Maybe a badge or two!

But it begs the question, how has DVLA decided that this particular vehicle is outside the regs, they've not set eyes on it!

The theory expressed to me by victims of this is that their cars have appeared in magazine photo shoots, blogs, social media and the like and someone at DVLA is paying attention to this stuff. Then, with some photo evidence to hand, they are sending these letters out, effectively throwing some mud against the wall to see if it sticks!

But it appears to me, that if you get one of these letters (and how long before they send one out to anyone who has a car with a bigger engine than it started life with) It is going to be down to YOU to prove that it complies with the rules (if it does) or go through all the rigmarole of the BIVA, expensive, frustrating and time consuming, or take the car off the road and keep it as a track only car forever. Effectively destroying it's value and wasting all your hard work.

Since I don't care for ANY of those options, I build my cars to conform with the rules, and on the rare occasion I do put a pic on facebook or whatever, I go to some effort to state categorically that it HAS ben built to conform! In the hope they may just leave me alone!

However, it would appear, for the time being at least, that if you have such an illegal beast, or are building one, if you keep it quiet and shun publicity, including writing about it and showing pics on Bookface and even public Forums like this one, you could escape negative attention from undesired quarters for some considerable time!

Steve

PS, I too regard that Landrover as a poor example, sure the mods weren't the best idea, never been a fan of excessive "lift" myself, or a handful of other fad mods, like huge camber and stretched tyres but proper maintenance (and dare I say it, an MOT) would have caught the major faults before it got too dangerous. And the silly b**ger paid an enormous price for his stupidity, Darwin ALWAYS has the last laugh!

The point is more that the modified car could be and often is, a minor engineering masterpiece (ie Project Binky) and STILL be illegal and banned from public roads for the cardinal sin of disobeying some beaurocrats rule, not any engineering failing. Fortunately the guys behind Binky undestand the rules, are taking no chances and getting it BIVA'd. It would make more sense to adopt the rules from NZ where every mod gets inspected and approved for road use but (more or less) nothing that's safe gets refused. But we just have to make the best of what we have - and that, for better or worse, is the 8 point rule.