The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

If it were just copies that are on "the net" then I'd accept that. But as it's the FIA and that FoR includes the later details of the transfer to FISA Group-A, and which mods were legal there, it's not just some random, incompletely scanned set as you suggest.

The use of the term Group one and a half is clearly informal. As I understood it, its use in the British sporting press was to cars with parts that weren't in the set allowed for Group-1 but used in the nominally Group-1 BSCC. However, maybe it refers cars with parts that shouldn't have been approved for Group-1 - I started by saysing I didn't know how the BSCC had managed to allow the HS8s without the production Group-1 approval should have required. And it does seem that there were tensions between the FIA and the CSI over CSI autonomy. They didn't end till 1993, when Mosley got control of the FIA, having got control of FISA in 91, and the two were unified again.

The other question is which race series outside the BSCC were these Group-1 cars using HS8s and Webers raced in - I know the Group-2 rally cars with various well tuned engines used them, but don't know where they were used in Group-1 internationally.

Graham

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The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).

I just looked on the FIA site but all is there.... The same set I have with all the gp1 homologated parts like weber and HS8 etc. etc. having mixed stamps of FIA and CSI.

Jeroen

_________________
Classic Kabelboom Company. For all your wiring needs. http://www.classickabelboomcompany.com

I found the earlier version of the FoR on the FIA, which does have amendments 7 and 17 in it. I was looking at the later one, at https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/defaul ... roup_a.pdf
That has neither amendment 7 for the HS8s nor amendment 17 for the Webers, and contains the list of re-validations for 1982 FISA Group-A, which does not include amendments 7 and 17.

So, at some time in or before 1982 the approvals in those amendments must have been rescinded, just like the note in Appendix J Art 261 rescinded all those Group-2 approvals given under Art 260 of Appendix J 1975.

And, if these mods were validly approved under Appendix J 1976, where are the modified cars needed for that? And what race series other than BSCC were they used in? Or are these the documentation of the so called Group one and a half modifications?

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).

You will never find them in the UK as all these cars needed to homologate were exported as these mods were std. equipment for some export countries. There were a lot of Sprints exported to California which all had the HS8 and fast road camshaft fitted as these were part the emission kit compulsory in some export countries. The 5000 sprints shipped to Johannesburg all had an oilcooler kit and larger radiator fitted and a sump guard for the rough territory to homolgate these......

I'm not sure what your point is. Or even the question. All what is homologated for gp1 and gp2 you can use on your rallycar/racecar then and now. When rallying now historic with a gp1 or gp2 car you have to comply to the last appendix of those cars so for gp1 and gp2 that would be appendix j of 1981. I think BL didn't bother to rehomologate the sprint in 1982 for gpA. The thing is, when you did rally or race a gp1 in the period or now, you can use on a gp1 car HS8 or webers as these were homologated for gp1 on these cars. Not gp1.5, as the official FIA forms are there. When you wanted to rally a gpA rally or racecar in 1982 you only could use an almost std car.

Appendixes and homologations are two different things as are gp1, gp2 and gpA and gpN. It does not matter howmany sprints did leave the factory with HS8 fitted or had webers std. fitted. These parts were homologated for gp1 so a legal gp1 car could and can have these. It also doesn't matter at what events these were actually used because you could use doesn't mean have to use. There are more homologated parts that were never fitted on production cars and never used on factory competion cars but that's not the point. Parts on a FIA homologation form you were allowed to use in the group these were homologated in. Then and now.

Jeroen

_________________
Classic Kabelboom Company. For all your wiring needs. http://www.classickabelboomcompany.com

Is there evidence of that anywhere?

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).

AFAIK NO Sprints went to the States from new, especially California, as they couldn't meet the new-in-73 California emission regs.

I was more interested in the "5000 Sprints sent to South Africa" to homologate the sump guard etc! What happened to these cars, did they come back and get sold later, or is there a hidden cache in Jo'berg? 5000 cars is over 20% of total Sprint production, the factory strugged to build the 5000 necessary for GP1 homologation in 73 and never again managed that many in a single year, Where did these cars COME FROM?

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

Steve is your reading in between the lines also in lockdown?

These weren't made. Read it in correct context. All these parts had to be standard production parts. The larger radiator, the oil cooler, the HS8 carbs and the Webers also. B.L. called these standard parts/equipment for some export countries. The Weber and fast road camshaft were called emission kits compulsory in some export countries. Just give it a name, make it a standard production part on paper, fit it to cars on paper and you can homologate it as a standard production part to be able to use it on a legal gp1 car.

All manufactureres did. Ford had only 5 or 6 sets of bubble arch wings during homologation. At Boreham they ordered a big truck when the FIA officials were visiting. All the personeel was "unloading" the truck walking with all these panels. From the truck the into the shop, then running to the backdoor around to the truck again and to the front door again with "another" set of wings repeating for a few hours.... One of the most known Ford stories.

When the RS200 had to be homologated they needed 200 running cars to show the FIA. The bodies were produced by Reliant. These were positioned in the Reliant factory. The first 20 were ready, the next 30 had wheels and the last 150 were standing on wooden frames in the back looking like finished cars..

It's a normal thing in rally world.

Jeroen

_________________
Classic Kabelboom Company. For all your wiring needs. http://www.classickabelboomcompany.com

Maybe i'm thick! Or maybe you shoulda put a winking smiley after the description of these "exported" paper cars and parts!

I know about the RS200 fiddle and a couple of other legendary cheats, I suppose it's only natural that Triumph would also cheat if need be, to make the numbers add up on paper for the rivet counters. I infer that no other manufacturer would take them to task about it because they all had skeletons in their own closets!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

What's the RS200 fiddle?
I know the stories about the Chevette HS production, i.e. that they never made 400 and managed to fool Neil Eason-Gibson and Gerard Crombac &co by showing them the same cars twice. However, I also think I understand what really happened, and how those tales come about. I also know the tales told about the homologation of the TR8 and the Speke strike and the transfer of the RS1800 from Group-2 to the Group-4, 2ltr, Escort RS on 50 to 58 cars, and also think I understand what really happened in those cases - why you can find evidence for the full 400 FHC TR8s and can't find evidence of the 350 homemade BDG engine Escort RS's Graham Robson claimed were (illegally) used to homologate the Escort RS.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).

Some good ones come from the Jag and Daimler. Some bad ones come from the Rovers - I was told by a man who appeared to know his onions that the Rover ones are no better than HS6s because of limits on the piston lift and main jet sizes.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).

I don't see where there's a possibility to misread this. You clearly claim that "There were a lot of Sprints exported to California which all had the HS8".

My understanding is that the Sprint engine had no chance of meeting US federal emissions requirements, which changed significantly in 1976, without the EFI and smog pump being developed for SD2 (other slant-4 engine cost reduction programme developments may have mattered as well) - there is a (P reg.) engineering development SD2 in the BMM collection at Gaydon with that Bosch EFI and some of the mods to the head for the smog pump. But SD2 was cancelled before the end of 1975 (maybe early 1976 if you include the paper study that was TM1) following BLMC going bankrupt in 1974. So I just don't get where there were "a lot of Sprints exported to California".

My other point is that if "There were a lot of Sprints exported to California which all had the HS8", and or cars fitted with Webers, they would be well known. Yet they are not. But if they are real, then there must be evidence of them. If they are virtual, paper ones, then they don't count to homologating modifications that affect performance of a Group-1 car.

I simply don't accept "Just give it a name, make it a standard production part on paper, fit it to cars on paper and you can homologate it as a standard production part to be able to use it on a legal gp1 car." as being true. There is no way that fits with what is said in any Appendix J for Group-1, which gives the rules written by the CSI and published by the FIA, for what may and may not be given homologation approval by the CSI. It's nearly true for Group-2 before 1976, when the 100-off rule allowed this approach for a range of component types on the production of 100 kits to modify 100 cars. But that rule just did not apply to Group-1 in any way, shape, or form. It's very clear Group-1 was supposed to be for showroom cars modified only for safety, not performance.

You might try to argue that Appendix J didn't apply to the Group-1 Sprints for some reason. And I might accept that in the special case of the BSCC Group one and a half cars because there's evidence for that. But I'd want to see additional evidence before I'd believe it for any other purpose.

As to historic racing/rally series accepting anything that was ever approved for Group-1: from what I've read about Marcos cars being raced, they aren't, or at least haven't always been, even that strict.

So, given that the use of the term "Group one and a half" in the sporting press clearly implied they thought there was something about them that bent the Group-1 rules enough for comment, and these approvals clearly require the Group-1 rules about producing another 5000 for a modification affecting performance to have been bent, I suggest they are related.

Graham

_________________
The 16v Slant 4 engine is more fun than the 3.5 V8, because you mostly drive it on the upslope of the torque curve.

Factory 1977 TR7 Sprint FHC VVC 697S (Now all of, but still needs putting together)
B&Y 73 Dolomite Sprint UVB 274M (kids!)
1970 Maroon 13/60 Herald Convertable (wife's fun car).

Graham

How do you know if youe got the Rover carbs or the Jag ones ?

Dave

The Jags had HS8 so Rovers "needed" these too. The HS8 was too large for the Rover engine so these had different pistons. These don't travel to the top and totally opening the bore so making it actually a smaller carb. These Rover ones are the same as the Jags ones but a different pistons. You can check by pushing the piston up and see the travel. Visually both are the same.

Years ago I had a tripple HS8 XK in the workshop not running well. It had one Rover carb...

When there are cheap Rover ones for sale you can buy and fit different pistons with no trouble.

Jeroen.

_________________
Classic Kabelboom Company. For all your wiring needs. http://www.classickabelboomcompany.com

You probably did read it here.

viewtopic.php?t=33829

_________________
Classic Kabelboom Company. For all your wiring needs. http://www.classickabelboomcompany.com