The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

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 Post subject: Engine change
PostPosted:Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:19 pm 
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Has any one fitted a Rover K series engine in a Dolomite before ?

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:54 pm 
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Ken Wood ran a KV6 for a long time in a rally car, lots of film on youtube of it proceeding sideways at many knots!

He's also recently sold one with a T series partway in (the old 820 engine)

I've idly considered the possibility of using a 1.8 K series Turbo from a Rover 75/MGZT as parts are available to make the essentially FWD motor fit a Ford T9/MT75 gearbox. But with so many other, more robust engines available from Vauxhall, Ford, Nissan, Mazda, Honda and Saab, to name but a few, why bother with the flawed and fragile K series. Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.

But I don't just look for power, surprising as that may sound to folk who know me, I want long term reliability too! Once i've gone to the trouble of making it fit, I don't want to be pulling it out every other weekend to fix whatever it's broken! While I do get a high degree of enjoyment doing a convo, for me it's mainly a means to an end, the end in mind being tearing up street, strip, or racetrack, I build my cars so that I may enjoy driving them.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:29 pm 
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Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.
Doesn't that make it a perfect fit?

most of it's built in problems are now curable - Just like a Sprint or Stag.
when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing - Just like a triumph 1300 4 pot.
very light too - Just like a..... Ah.

_________________
1978 Pageant Sprint - the rustomite, 1972 Spitfire IV - sprintfire project, 1968 Valencia GT6 II - little Blue, 1980 Vermillion 1500HL - resting. 1974 Sienna 1500TC, Mrs Weevils big brown.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:35 pm 
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TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined:Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts:6086
Location:Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.
Doesn't that make it a perfect fit?

most of it's built in problems are now curable - Just like a Sprint or Stag.
when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing - Just like a triumph 1300 4 pot.
very light too - Just like a..... Ah.
I've spent a lot of my life doing Triumph's development engineering for them. I don't have enough life left to do Rover's!

My own engine of choice, the Vauxhall 8v "familyII" motor is no spring chicken either. Conceived in the 70s and first offered in the Astra/Kadett of 1980, it's simple, vastly tuneable and almost indestructible. But in terms of engineering and build quality, it's at least 2 generations ahead of anything Triumph built, at almost the same time! Other engines of equal quality are available from other makers, I just like this one best! The smaller versions (1200-1400cc) are buzzy and revvy, my own preference is for the larger, lazier, more torquey variants, (1600-2200) I was never that keen on having to row a car along on the gearbox, that's why I didn't enjoy my 2 Alfa Romeos that much!

I've kinda thought, for quite a while, that a 1.4 MPi N/A K series, with a modern close ratio 5 speed (or even 6 speed) gearbox, would be a fitting update for a Toledo, keep it sorta BL (the K series was entirely developed around Coventry, i've met 2 of the engineers responsible) and retain it's character. But with modern reliabity and a considerable BHP boost.

If I had a few more years and a LOT more money (or a lottery win and a staff of 10) I might have been inclined to give it a go, as it is, the end result wouldn't really be "my kind of car" so i'll probably devote whatever years of modding I have left, to building cars I actually WANT to drive when finished. Top of the list being a Triumph 2000 estate with a turbo'd Nissan RB20 straight 6 of around 300bhp. Still will sound like the 6 pot it started out as, love the sound of a 6 at full chat, but 3 times the power and spits flame on the over-run! What's not to love?

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:04 pm 
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Joined:Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts:2221
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.
Doesn't that make it a perfect fit?

most of it's built in problems are now curable - Just like a Sprint or Stag.
when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing - Just like a triumph 1300 4 pot.
very light too - Just like a..... Ah.
I've spent a lot of my life doing Triumph's development engineering for them. I don't have enough life left to do Rover's!

My own engine of choice, the Vauxhall 8v "familyII" motor is no spring chicken either. Conceived in the 70s and first offered in the Astra/Kadett of 1980, it's simple, vastly tuneable and almost indestructible. But in terms of engineering and build quality, it's at least 2 generations ahead of anything Triumph built, at almost the same time! Other engines of equal quality are available from other makers, I just like this one best! The smaller versions (1200-1400cc) are buzzy and revvy, my own preference is for the larger, lazier, more torquey variants, (1600-2200) I was never that keen on having to row a car along on the gearbox, that's why I didn't enjoy my 2 Alfa Romeos that much!

I've kinda thought, for quite a while, that a 1.4 MPi N/A K series, with a modern close ratio 5 speed (or even 6 speed) gearbox, would be a fitting update for a Toledo, keep it sorta BL (the K series was entirely developed around Coventry, i've met 2 of the engineers responsible) and retain it's character. But with modern reliabity and a considerable BHP boost.

If I had a few more years and a LOT more money (or a lottery win and a staff of 10) I might have been inclined to give it a go, as it is, the end result wouldn't really be "my kind of car" so i'll probably devote whatever years of modding I have left, to building cars I actually WANT to drive when finished. Top of the list being a Triumph 2000 estate with a turbo'd Nissan RB20 straight 6 of around 300bhp. Still will sound like the 6 pot it started out as, love the sound of a 6 at full chat, but 3 times the power and spits flame on the over-run! What's not to love?

Steve
Steve, my mind has been over active on the car front, unlike my motivation to get up to the garage...
However, have you seen a saab turbo dropped into a dolly? I know you have mentioned the vauxhall versions, but the saab b234 seems to be a rather good engine, Triumph family (just) but I haven't seen one fitted. But you may of one, or know why not?

_________________
Clive Senior
Brighton
Driving Toledo fitted with slant 4, sprint OD box and axle. Needs fettling!


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:02 pm 
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Joined:Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts:12906
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Quote:
Ken Wood ran a KV6 for a long time in a rally car, lots of film on youtube of it proceeding sideways at many knots!

He's also recently sold one with a T series partway in (the old 820 engine)

I've idly considered the possibility of using a 1.8 K series Turbo from a Rover 75/MGZT as parts are available to make the essentially FWD motor fit a Ford T9/MT75 gearbox. But with so many other, more robust engines available from Vauxhall, Ford, Nissan, Mazda, Honda and Saab, to name but a few, why bother with the flawed and fragile K series. Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.

But I don't just look for power, surprising as that may sound to folk who know me, I want long term reliability too! Once i've gone to the trouble of making it fit, I don't want to be pulling it out every other weekend to fix whatever it's broken! While I do get a high degree of enjoyment doing a convo, for me it's mainly a means to an end, the end in mind being tearing up street, strip, or racetrack, I build my cars so that I may enjoy driving them.

Steve
Are you confusing Ken Wood with Ken Clarke? Do you not ken your Kens as they might say in Scotland?


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:06 pm 
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Joined:Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:13 pm
Posts:12906
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Quote:
Steve, my mind has been over active on the car front, unlike my motivation to get up to the garage...
However, have you seen a saab turbo dropped into a dolly? I know you have mentioned the vauxhall versions, but the saab b234 seems to be a rather good engine, Triumph family (just) but I haven't seen one fitted. But you may of one, or know why not?
The SAAB engine is run with the pistons vertically aligned and rotated 180º in a SAAB, driving the front wheels....


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:34 pm 
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TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined:Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts:6086
Location:Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Quote:
Steve, my mind has been over active on the car front, unlike my motivation to get up to the garage...
However, have you seen a saab turbo dropped into a dolly? I know you have mentioned the vauxhall versions, but the saab b234 seems to be a rather good engine, Triumph family (just) but I haven't seen one fitted. But you may of one, or know why not?
The SAAB engine is run with the pistons vertically aligned and rotated 180º in a SAAB, driving the front wheels....
Alun's comment is not quite correct, the engine used in the FIRST Saab turbos (1979> IIRC) which is a development of the Triumph 1509cc (later 1854 and 1998cc) slant engine concept runs with the pistons inclined at 45 degrees to the vertical, just as a Sprint engine does. But because it's mounted in the Saab body with the flywheel forward and the timing chest hard against the bulkhead (rotated 180 degrees as Alun correctly states) the lean is towards the drivers side of the car. None of those discrepancies are really relevant to the conversion into the Sprint, except that the 45 degree tilt results, as it does in the Spint itself, with no good place for a free flowing exhaust manifold, let alone a decent sized turbocharger, near enough to the head to reduce lag to an acceptable level. Nor does the Saab's use of a belt driven water pump materially affect a conversion.

A bigger problem, is that the Saab unit is indeed FWD and uses a 1300FWD Triumph-like gearbox (but considerably more rugged) mounted, along with the diff, underneath the engine and which, obviously, contains the engine oil sump. So you'd have to fabricate an entire sump UNLESS the block design is still close enough to it's Triumph roots to accept a Sprint sump (wouldn't that be nice?) The same possibility exists for the gearbox mounting to the block. If the block is still similar enough at the rear end, it will accept the Sprint adaptor plates and gearbox. If either or both of these fittings aren't still the same, you are going to end up with a job that probably isn't worth the effort.

Whereas the later B202/4 engine DOES sit almost upright (7 degrees from vertical, if you want to be pedantic) leaving plenty of space for a sizable turbo, has a sump which aligns nicely with a Triumph subframe, mates perfectly with a Carlton/Omega/Manta gearbox through a readily available clutch and is strong enough to tune to 400bhp before expensive bottom end work is necessary.

The biggest problem I predict with the B202/4 engine is making suitable mounts for a longitudinally fitted engine when it was only ever designed to be fitted transversely. I actually had a B204 SE spec 150bhp turbo engine in my yard as I was seriously considering this as an option, that was the biggest stumbling block I could see. One of the main reasons I favour the Vauxhall engines is because they WERE used in longitudinal apps, even though the vast majority were transverse, all blocks carry the mount points for longitudinal fitting, which makes MY life easy peasy!

If you'd like to try it on, despite these possible (and definite) problems, there is a Saab specialist breaker near me, I might be able to liberate a B234 block to experiment with for not a lot of dosh!

Steve

PS, The B202 and B204 are not "Vauxhall engines" they are pure Saab. A carry-over from when Saab were an independent company. They were adapted, after the GM takeover, to accept Vauxhall gearboxes, which is handy! In fact the Saab 9-3 is on a Vectra A /Cavalier III floorpan, the only difference visible from below is the lower wishbones on the Saab are cast alloy where the Cav ones are pressed tin!

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:50 pm 
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TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined:Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm
Posts:6086
Location:Highley, Shropshire
Quote:

Are you confusing Ken Wood with Ken Clarke? Do you not ken your Kens as they might say in Scotland?
No I meant Ken Wood! checkout "Ken Wood - Triumph Dolomite Sprint - Rally highlights 2011" on youtube, amongst others.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted:Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:20 pm 
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Joined:Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:13 pm
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Quote:

Are you confusing Ken Wood with Ken Clarke? Do you not ken your Kens as they might say in Scotland?
No I meant Ken Wood! checkout "Ken Wood - Triumph Dolomite Sprint - Rally highlights 2011" on youtube, amongst others.

Steve
I know both of them well, Ken Wood was the first customer for GRP wings and valance which his red car wears well....but it was Ken Clarke who recently sold the Dolomite with part fitted T series...


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