The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:49 pm 
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Battery production relies on fairly difficult to acquire materials which exist in relatively small quantities.
Lithium is highly reactive, when processed into raw state it has to be stored in oil just like all other alkaline metals. What I was intending by the statement was you don't find nuggets of it lying around, in its natural state it has reacted with other stuff...there's lots of it in sea water for example, but you'll only achieve small quantities by processing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:58 pm 
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Just listening to an F1 guy on radio 5. Missed the start so didn't get his name or position within F1. He said that 90% of the worlds engines are currently ICE and they won't be going away anytime soon. He said that F1 are working on a new (non-electric) fuel source to use and that they will be using it by 2025! Also said that, as often is the case, this F1 technology will filter down to the mainstream public?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55352108 for old info.

Could well turn out to be a blind alley, but fingers crossed!


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:51 am 
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Lots of interesting opinions so far.

Ultimately battery or hydrogen power comes with their own special problems
Batteries as said before used “rare earth” metal. An misnomer, they are there but as said before highly reactive as a metal, hence exist as a stable compound in the ground, to get the metal from the ore or raw material involves a expensive, generally energy intensive process.
Hydrogen, is highly flammable and explosive in air. Storage is a problem, fill a metal storage tank with it under pressure - come back in a couple of days and half will have disappeared!! The Hydrogen molecule is that small it can move between the molecular space in the metal atoms.
The best and most efficient way of producing and storing hydrogen is in situ and when required.
If you can do this it’s great, and the emissions form combustion is water.

Weve been early adopters of EV’s. We’re now onto our 4th.
They all have been company cars and have been chosen to reduce tax.
We’ve had a Leaf, Tesla 75, Merc hybrid c-class and most recently a Jag ipace. The cars have been perks. All have limitations.

When the leaf arrived we had a 30a charger, 7kw mains charger installed. We live in a older property, which has 2x100A (2 meters) electricity supply. The lead would charge from flat in 4 or so hours. Now the jag with its 90kWh battery will take in theory around 13.5, but in practice is longer as the battery fills up, above 80% charge, charging seems to slow down. There is also the ability to charge at work. Both work fine as long as you remember to plug in when required. We don’t have solar, but if the cars have been plugged in, time the charge and take advantage of cheaper tariif electricity overnight at home.
For us all the cars have worked great. They have provided cost effective, for us, reliable (the fully electric ones anyway) transport over the last 9 years. Looking at the running costs, and comparing to similar sized ICE in their class and it’s a no brainer for us. Yes we don’t have to worry about depreciation, but for the company has been sensible and taken advantage of the tax schemes available from central government, and also bought the Tesla and the jag 2nd hand to minimise this. From a “fuel” cost if we charge at home, we reckon per mile has cost in the region of 3-4 p per mile. Which helps again.

The EVs have been my wife cars. I work from home, have done for most of my working life, don’t travel when allowed much in the uk, so can get away with what I want and like for a car. However, if I was commuting to an office each day - I’d have an EV for that purpose 100%. From the experience we’ve had with them it’s a easy decision to make.

_________________
1976 Taihiti Sprint
2020 Jaguar iPace ev400
2011 Landrover Defender pickup - twisted :D
2023 Porsche 911 Carrera T Manual!!
2021 Toyota Yaris GR-Four
2011 Super Skoda Fabia 1.2 S HTP

Gone but not forgotten 2008 BMW M5 (E61) Touring (George, as in Best, as it likes a Drink) to be replaced soon...... Epic epic car


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:31 pm 
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Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Quote: "Hydrogen, is highly flammable and explosive in air. Storage is a problem, fill a metal storage tank with it under pressure - come back in a couple of days and half will have disappeared!!"

I disagree on both counts. Hydrogen stored in the correct pressurised cylinder is MUCH safer than a tank full of petrol. It is very unlikely to be breached in a collision unlike a steel or plastic petrol tank. I once saw a demonstration where a marksman fired a high power rifle at a hydrogen cylinder and at a petrol tank. The petrol tank exploded in a most spectacular fashion whereas the hydrogen cylinder simply leaked with no fire. Agreed once it is out of the cylinder you have a problem, but as I said those cylinders are tough.

We have lived with petrol for so long we are blase about just how dangerous it is.

In the lab where I worked we used hydrogen cylinders to operate some of our equipment. They certainly didn't lose any gas just standing.

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Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:55 pm 
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Quote:
Quote: "Hydrogen, is highly flammable and explosive in air. Storage is a problem, fill a metal storage tank with it under pressure - come back in a couple of days and half will have disappeared!!"

I disagree on both counts. Hydrogen stored in the correct pressurised cylinder is MUCH safer than a tank full of petrol. It is very unlikely to be breached in a collision unlike a steel or plastic petrol tank. I once saw a demonstration where a marksman fired a high power rifle at a hydrogen cylinder and at a petrol tank. The petrol tank exploded in a most spectacular fashion whereas the hydrogen cylinder simply leaked with no fire. Agreed once it is out of the cylinder you have a problem, but as I said those cylinders are tough.

We have lived with petrol for so long we are blase about just how dangerous it is.

In the lab where I worked we used hydrogen cylinders to operate some of our equipment. They certainly didn't lose any gas just standing.
Like any flammable material if it’s stored correctly it’s fine.
What I said is hydrogen is highly flammable and explosive in air - it is - fact, and I agree with your comments on petrol. We are complacent.

Large scale industrial storage of hydrogen loses significant volume of the gas through the walls of the tank if left unused.
If you look at any large scale industrial process using hydrogen - now it’s generated onsite, almost on demand for that reason.

_________________
1976 Taihiti Sprint
2020 Jaguar iPace ev400
2011 Landrover Defender pickup - twisted :D
2023 Porsche 911 Carrera T Manual!!
2021 Toyota Yaris GR-Four
2011 Super Skoda Fabia 1.2 S HTP

Gone but not forgotten 2008 BMW M5 (E61) Touring (George, as in Best, as it likes a Drink) to be replaced soon...... Epic epic car


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:11 am 
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Location: Sutton,Surrey.
Not your average choice for a electric conversion.

https://youtu.be/-1OvcXyJBfs

_________________
2009 Mini Clubman Cooper S Daily Driver.
1980 Dolomite Sprint with a touch of BLTS
Balanced Lightened and Tweaked 13B Rotary and SuperCharged.
Back in my possession 22 September 2019.
Rebuilding the Sprint time taken so far, 111Hrs@15/12/2020
212Hrs @31/12/2021
352 @ 28/11/2022
455Hrs @ 20/10/2023
480Hrs @ 14/03/2024
This is time taken at the Sprint not necessary time worked.

Member TDC no 0471

Project 13B Sprint now back on.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:10 pm 
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I reckon the gross weight of a classic is a limiting factor, as although the engine and gearbox are 200kg taken out, a decent motor,control system and battery are a fair bit more, still it's an interesting concept given torque and refinement possibilities.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:53 am 
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I plan to convert my sprint to electric when I retire. Currently costed it at around £14k using 6 Tesla batteries and a Hyper 9 AC motor. It will provide the same torque as my current Redtop engine at 178 lbs/ft difference being that the max torque will be available from 0rpm all the way to 6000! Will use the Omega gearbox with an added flywheel for flexibility, although I imagine I will be mostly using 3rd gear.

At the very least it will allow me to get some weight over the back axle...


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 4:38 pm
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Location: South Benfleet, Essex
Quote:
I'm still not convinced that battery electric tech is advanced enough at this point in time to offer a practicable solution to discontinuing the use of fossil fuel power. Current battery EVs aren't very green either in terms of production and end of life disposal and during life, environmental impact depends on WHERE your electricity comes from, if it comes from a coal or gas fired power station, not much is gained!

The government want to stop the sale of all fossil fuel powered NEW cars by 2030 (highly optimistic, but still) This won't affect the 30,000,000 USED vehicles that are already on British roads. In fact, since very few people will be able to afford a new battery EV, most of which are currently over £30,000 apiece, WELL over for the best ones, I anticipate a considerable rise in used Petrol and Diesel values when you can no longer buy a new one! There will be a need to fuel all these remaining cars and trucks for some considerable time yet. I wouldn't be surprised if petrol is still in common use in 2050. So I'm not personaly bothered as I expect to be comfortably dead by then!

If you still want to investigate electric power for your classic then, there MAY have been advances in tech that will make it more affordable and more environmentally sound. But my money is on the hydrogen fuel cell being the power source of choice for vehicles in the 2050s and beyond, battery EV is just a temporary distraction till the boffins come up with something better!

Steve

Although my relevant technical qualification is somewhat out of date these days (i.e. 1979~81, two-year M.Sc. in Applied Energy Engineering - Energy Conservation and the Environment option), I too would regard lithium-ion battery powered vehicles, as a very expensive and not particularly environmentally friendly interim solution! If I were a betting man, I would put my wager on fuel cells for electricity generation and/or alternative bio-fuels for internal-combustion engines.

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Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 3:35 pm 
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Hi I would be interested to know if your electric conversion went ahead, i have an 1850HL which im currently
restoring which & was thinking about converting next year. it`s a nice solid car with very little rust but a rough engine so would
be a prime candidate. As it isn`t a sprint i don`t think the purists would be too offended bearing in mind how many 1850s have been scrapped for sprint spares over the last few years (the car can always be converted back anyway) i`ve got a few ideas how i`m going to do it, but early stages at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 4:20 pm 
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Quote:
Hi I would be interested to know if your electric conversion went ahead, i have an 1850HL which im currently
restoring which & was thinking about converting next year. it`s a nice solid car with very little rust but a rough engine so would
be a prime candidate. As it isn`t a sprint i don`t think the purists would be too offended bearing in mind how many 1850s have been scrapped for sprint spares over the last few years (the car can always be converted back anyway) i`ve got a few ideas how i`m going to do it, but early stages at the moment.
https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 12&t=37242


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Conversion
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 12:50 pm 
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Location: Liverpool Area
I assume you've come across the Battery Vehicle Society?

If not, here's a link:
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk ... fbac4a5fab

They have a LOT of advice for people considering this sort of conversion.
And a forum board that looks very much like this one....

I came across them when talking to Mark Keenan of MK Cars - they produce the MK Indy kit car - who had produced his own manic electric trike.
He's very enthusiastic, supportive of fellow members, and has a wealth of fabrication experience.


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