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PostPosted:Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:39 pm 
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My 1850 originally had a ballet resistor and previous owner did away with it and fitted a normal 12 volt coil. I have seen on here that the tachometer wire has to be connected to form a circuit for the car to run. My problem is my car now won't produce a spark at the plugs since I have messed with the wiring and I would like to know how to wire up the coil correctly and cut the old wire for the ballast resistor off.
I have a Delco distributor with electronic ignition but as I say there is no spark at the plugs. The coil has been tested and is ok.
Does the tachometer wire go on the negative side or the positive side of the coil?


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 Post subject: Aye...
PostPosted:Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:23 pm 
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It depends on which type of tachometer is fitted I’m afraid.

Image
Early type is connected to the positive terminal of the coil.
If the tachometer fails the car won’t run, however it is possible to add a bypass wire so that the car
will still run if the tachometer fails.




Image
Later type is connected to the coil’s negative terminal.


Have you got a wiring diagram?
I suspect you haven’t, so if you indicate the year of your car I will help with a diagram.



Ian

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 Post subject: Re: Aye...
PostPosted:Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:45 am 
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Quote:
It depends on which type of tachometer is fitted I’m afraid.

Image
Early type is connected to the positive terminal of the coil.
If the tachometer fails the car won’t run, however it is possible to add a bypass wire so that the car
will still run if the tachometer fails.




Image
Later type is connected to the coil’s negative terminal.


Have you got a wiring diagram?
I suspect you haven’t, so if you indicate the year of your car I will help with a diagram.



Ian
Hi Ian, Its a1972 and the tachometer is the one pictured at the top. I have got multi connections and the only one that i can identify is the positive wire from the ignition key.I don't understand why there is no spark without the tachometer being connected.
Image

Image


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 Post subject: Yeah.....
PostPosted:Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:08 pm 
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With that type of tachometer being connected to the positive terminal on the coil,
the current effectively flows through the tacho, so

in other words if the tacho fails or is disconnected you have no spark.


Sorry,
I don't have an 1850 workshop handy so cannot confirm the colours of the wires right now, however
I will endeavour to do this tomorrow evening.



Ian.

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PostPosted:Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:08 pm 
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Thanks Ian, all the wires appear to be white and they seem to have lost there tracers due to age probably.
Alan


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PostPosted:Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:35 pm 
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OK, i've found a wiring diagram for that style of tachometer. Power runs into the Tach via white lead from ignition switch and out to one side of the ballast resistor via a white/slate grey wire. then the ballast bypass goes into the other side of the ballast resistor and loops across to the coil via a yellow/white lead (this is the lead you have pictured with the red jumper cable included to make a tidy and useless loop!)

As I understand it, your car has had the ballast resistor deleted and the EI is run from a dedicated 12v supply drawn from the fusebox. In such a case then all that should be needed is the white/slate wire connecting to coil +ve and the other (black?) wire from the EI module connecting to coil -ve. The yellow/white wire and the red jumper become redundant.

To bypass the Tach for test, run a lead from the fusebox, unfused side of the ignition live fuse (where the white wires are) to coil +ve. If it runs like that, but not off the white/slate lead, you may suspect a duff tachometer is the cause. It wouldn't be the first, it's why this style of tach was discontinued!

If it STILL doesn't run with the tach bypassed, i'd be inclined to suspect you have blown the EI module, as I know from bitter experience, you only need to connect a single wire in the wrong place far a second to blow one up!

Steve

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'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

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 Post subject: Yeah...
PostPosted:Sat May 01, 2021 7:30 pm 
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To add to Steve’s post
Quote:
Thanks Ian, all the wires appear to be white and they seem to have lost there tracers due to age probably.
Alan
Having white wires with tracers on both coil terminals is not the best idea 😳!

Anyhow, looking at your photos, Alan
the one with the link wire inserted goes to the positive terminal
and the one with the Scotchlock connector goes to the negative terminal.


Ian

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 Post subject: Re: Yeah...
PostPosted:Sat May 01, 2021 8:52 pm 
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Quote:
To add to Steve’s post
Quote:
Thanks Ian, all the wires appear to be white and they seem to have lost there tracers due to age probably.
Alan
Having white wires with tracers on both coil terminals is not the best idea 😳!

Anyhow, looking at your photos, Alan
the one with the link wire inserted goes to the positive terminal
and the one with the Scotchlock connector goes to the negative terminal.


Ian
Sorry Ian, I have to vehemently disagree with your wire position strategy. Alan's pics show the loose ballast bypass (Y/W) with red jumper and what must be the tacho output (W/S) connected to the coil (with scotchlok to EI feed) can't see which coil terminal unfortunately. This is the early car with power running though the tacho and if the car was original, the W/S would go to the ballast resistor and the Y/W would go via the other ballast resistor termnal to coil +ve. The only thing on coil -ve would be the lead out to the dizzy and points.

However the ballast has been deleted and the car is running 12v throughout. That means the ballast bypass is redundant and the W/S lead from the tacho goes direct to coil +ve. Only the signal wire (black?) from the EI should be on coil -ve. I think it's in view in the 2nd pic, below the scotchloked red wire, with what looks like masking tape wrapped round it. I can't tell from the pic, what, if anything, it's currently attached to.

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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PostPosted:Sun May 02, 2021 1:23 pm 
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Thanks Ian and Steve for your input.To say I am confused is a understatement. First let me try to clarify what I know and then tell you what I don't know.
The wire with the masking tape on it is the black wire from the EI in the dissy.

Two wires out of the loom both white, one I have identified as a live from the ignition key.Thats the one with the scotch lock on it.

The other which has a yellow tinge to it has a lucar factory fitted connector on it, it splits into two wires and carries on to another lucar terminal and then someone has connected that via a jump wire back to the Lucar with the yellow tinge to form a loop.
Please don't take this as correct.

Question one, can I cut of the rather untidy loop and then attach what I presume is the tacko wire to the positive connection on the coil.
That would make three connections.

Question two, If i do this should I then get a spark at the sparking plug provided i haven't cooked the EI.

Question three, if I still don't get a spark should I then fit a new EI which would mean taking out the distributor which doesn't look easy as I can't even see one of the mounting bolts.

Question four, knowing how difficult it is to remove the distributor can I just fit the new module and leave the pick up ring in place bear in mind they are not the same make.I have already bought a new power spark EI

Question five, can I sling the Delco distributor and fit a lucas one in this early engine which i presume is easier to fit etc

I know some questions will be unanswerable and if I didn't have electronic ignition getting it wrong wouldn't be such a problem I know you can buy a new distributor complete but they all seem to be with EI now.
Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted:Sun May 02, 2021 5:13 pm 
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OK,

If the white wire with the scotchlok tests live with ignition on, the tacho is not duff, connect it to coil +ve

Connect the black wire with masking tape on it to coil -ve

Cut off and dispose of the white/yellow wire with the red link in it, it's no longer needed.

So just 2 wires onto the coil.

At this point try and start the car, if it starts, all well and good. If it doesn't start, it's a dollar to a doughnut you've fried the EI module in the dizzy.

Now you are in the realms of uncertainty. Since you don't know the make of the original EI system, the only way to be 100% certain is to remove and dismantle the dizzy and fit the new kit complete. HOWEVER, it's possible that the new and old systems are sufficiently compatible (Britpart and Accuspark for example) that you can get away with just swapping the module and leaving the (hard to replace) trigger wheel in place. The trigger wheel contains only 4 magnetic strips and is pretty standard between brands. A magnet is a magnet. If it appears the new and old trigger wheels are the same size, i'd be inclined to give it a go. But I have years of experience with this sort of thing and I personally haven't bought the new kit, it's not my money at stake!

I wouldn't advise fitting the 44D4 Lucas dizzy from the Sprint, not only does it have the wrong advance curve for an 1850, this dizzy also has well known problems getting proprietary EI systems to work reliably in it. Furthermore, your new 1850 kit won't fit it!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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PostPosted:Sun May 02, 2021 7:10 pm 
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Hi Steve are you forgetting the red wire from the EI I presume connecting it to the +.
Can I ask if known what is the yellow / white wire for . I understand it was connected to the ballast resistor but where did the other end go, when it went into the loom.Was it connected to the starter solenoid ? because when I had the solenoid reconditioned he asked me if a connector was required for the ballast resistor.I told him it wasn't so he didn't fit one.
Thanks for your patience Alan


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PostPosted:Sun May 02, 2021 10:33 pm 
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Quote:
Hi Steve are you forgetting the red wire from the EI I presume connecting it to the +.
Can I ask if known what is the yellow / white wire for . I understand it was connected to the ballast resistor but where did the other end go, when it went into the loom.Was it connected to the starter solenoid ? because when I had the solenoid reconditioned he asked me if a connector was required for the ballast resistor.I told him it wasn't so he didn't fit one.
Thanks for your patience Alan
I've not forgotten it, my understanding is it's scotchloked into the white coil feed. Not my first choice of places, but a 12v feed is a 12v feed. I didn't want to risk further confusion by suggesting you move it, a tidier job would have been to connect it with a spade to coil +ve, better still would be to extend it and fit it to the unfused side of the ignition live fuse.

As you correctly surmise, the yellow/white wire was originally used for bypassing the ballast for easier starting. It originated on the starter solenoid as you thought. Since there is no longer a ballast the whole lead is redundant, but it's too much trouble to remove completely, easiest to just cut off what sticks out of the loom at both ends.

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted:Mon May 03, 2021 7:54 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Hi Steve are you forgetting the red wire from the EI I presume connecting it to the +.
Can I ask if known what is the yellow / white wire for . I understand it was connected to the ballast resistor but where did the other end go, when it went into the loom.Was it connected to the starter solenoid ? because when I had the solenoid reconditioned he asked me if a connector was required for the ballast resistor.I told him it wasn't so he didn't fit one.
Thanks for your patience Alan
I've not forgotten it, my understanding is it's scotchloked into the white coil feed. Not my first choice of places, but a 12v feed is a 12v feed. I didn't want to risk further confusion by suggesting you move it, a tidier job would have been to connect it with a spade to coil +ve, better still would be to extend it and fit it to the unfused side of the ignition live fuse.

As you correctly surmise, the yellow/white wire was originally used for bypassing the ballast for easier starting. It originated on the starter solenoid as you thought. Since there is no longer a ballast the whole lead is redundant, but it's too much trouble to remove completely, easiest to just cut off what sticks out of the loom at both ends.

Steve
A 12v coil feed is not just a 12v feed. Have the module feed from the fusebox otherwise the revcounter won't work.

Jeroen

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PostPosted:Mon May 03, 2021 9:58 pm 
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Thanks Steve it all seems to make sense now. I will try everthing out in the next couple of days and let you know how I get on.Alan


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PostPosted:Tue May 04, 2021 9:45 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hi Steve are you forgetting the red wire from the EI I presume connecting it to the +.
Can I ask if known what is the yellow / white wire for . I understand it was connected to the ballast resistor but where did the other end go, when it went into the loom.Was it connected to the starter solenoid ? because when I had the solenoid reconditioned he asked me if a connector was required for the ballast resistor.I told him it wasn't so he didn't fit one.
Thanks for your patience Alan
I've not forgotten it, my understanding is it's scotchloked into the white coil feed. Not my first choice of places, but a 12v feed is a 12v feed. I didn't want to risk further confusion by suggesting you move it, a tidier job would have been to connect it with a spade to coil +ve, better still would be to extend it and fit it to the unfused side of the ignition live fuse.

As you correctly surmise, the yellow/white wire was originally used for bypassing the ballast for easier starting. It originated on the starter solenoid as you thought. Since there is no longer a ballast the whole lead is redundant, but it's too much trouble to remove completely, easiest to just cut off what sticks out of the loom at both ends.

Steve
A 12v coil feed is not just a 12v feed. Have the module feed from the fusebox otherwise the revcounter won't work.

Jeroen
Is the rev counter really that fussy? I've only had one early 1850 and that was my first Dolomite in the late 80s, it stayed firmly on points! But presumably this car DID run with the EI feed scotched to the tacho output (A horrible bodge but still....) and the OP didn't mention the tach not working.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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