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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:54 pm 
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Hi All,

I recently put my new (now snapped) input shaft into the car and we used Copperslip (sp?), which is what Kev had used on his 1500 with no problems, hence why we never imagined this causing any problems in the 1300.

Long story short, I need to do a 'so anyway, I made a mistake but this is why/how' update video and I was wondering if somebody could offer me a really good explanation as to why you need to use the 'special grease'. I'm sure I didn't see it mentioned in any of the manuals I was following, so it's been a big surprise.

Also was a big surprise when it went 'ping' by Sainsburys in Kings Lynn and lost all drive...

Anyway, I'm keen to get this right and with it, keen to explain why anyone watching the video in the future *must* get the correct grease - but I need a knowledgeable answer.

Thanks in advance all - also thanks to Andy who manages the TDC Twitter page for the endless help and advice.

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Owner of Valerie, a troublesome Triumph 1300 (OFW 776G)

Big hair, old cars and videos over at www.youtube.com/idriveaclassic


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:15 pm 
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Simple answer is Copperslip is NOT a lubricant, it is essentially an anti seize compound. (yes the irony of it in your case!) . This link gives a basic explanation of its uses:

https://www.greasemonkeydirect.com/blog ... e-used-for

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:02 pm 
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I've been in the trade since starting my apprenticeship (on Triumph) in 1970. Back in those days a smear of Copaslip on the splines was de rigeur when fitting a new clutch and i've been doing it ever since. Hundreds of clutches over 50 years of spannering and never a failure. Nor have I ever used any other sort of "special grease" on the clutch splines.

I'm at a bit of a loss to diagnose the double failure in so short a time, the shafts ARE a known weak point in the driveline, but it's not that bad that one should break that quickly, unless it was weakened to start with. The normal problem that causes this (and clutch plate explosions) on other OHV Triumphs, is that of a bent engine backplate, a part your FWD doesn't have.

However, a cautionary tale here. Back in 78 ish, my mum ran a 1300TC FWD which suddenly and for no apparent reason lost all drive. The AA recovered the car to my house and I (knowing of the clutch shaft problem) immediately set about getting a new shaft, no easy task, even in those days! Only when I had a new one in hand, did I strip the clutch out, only to find the shaft perfectly intact and the clutch driven plate in several bits. D'OH!!!!

So my question is, have you taken it apart and confirmed the shaft is busted again, or just assumed it?

Steve

PS, sorry I don't still have the new shaft I bought, it went with the car when sold a year or two later!

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:24 pm 
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You need to speak to the FWD spares man. There is a special grease for these. And no, copperslip is no good.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:29 pm 
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But to snap two in a very short time.... Something else is wrong.
Points that come to mind:

Has the correct gasket been used between engine and box if they have been apart at any time, FWDs use a thin paper gasket. If you use the Herald / Spitfire cork gasket then that's too thick, it will affect the alignment of the input shaft.

Is there excessive crank end float? Common fault on these engines, again if it's shunting about it will stress the shaft.

Is the pilot bearing ok, in place and not worn?

Is the nylon thrust pad in place at the rear of the shaft?

Are the rubber driveshaft couplings in good condition, if they are worn out you can get excessive vibration through the box.

Could you possibly be being excessively rough with it? They are known to be weak, full throttle driving and rough clutch control could snap it..

Matt.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:57 pm 
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Just to be fully clear then:
Copperslip is NOT and never has been the correct thing to use on clutch splines. It's not a lubricant, it's an anti seize compound. It's copper particles held in low melting point grease. As the clutch gets hot the grease will melt, contaminating the linings and leaving the copper particles to actually abrade the input shaft and cause the wear and fretting on the splines that you are trying to avoid. Most clutches now come with a sachet of the correct lubricant which is a high melting point Moly grease. Clutch manufacturers will reject a warranty claim on any clutch that's returned with copperslip on it....
The FWD "special grease" is a heavy solids grease to cut down wear. It's available from the club.
BUT this wear is a long term thing. Using Copperslip has NOT caused the failure in such a short time and you need to look deeper as detailed above.
Matt.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:51 pm 
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As stated here, back in the early days of the 1300 Register (now part of TDC) I got a large tub of the special input shaft grease made by the original provider, who's name I cannot now recall - well it was about 1990. May have been Castrol. Whatever, this special grease was designed to stop the input shaft's splines fretting in use, and that was also the job of the puny nylon bolt in the end of the shaft. the lady in question is coming to Leeds to see me and to collect my last genuine BL input shaft when I will explain to her the means to stop the wear on the splines, which I presume is her problem, unless as mentioned above the thing has actually sheared in two, which could really only be due to a poor quality steel, it must be EN 21 and the radius of spline to shaft has to be, from memory 5deg. Bruce Jones has the original letter from the chap at ST/BL who designed the thing in the first place, George Jones who explained to me how he managed to get away with the longer splined shaft on the 1500FWD.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:57 pm 
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One thing some people seem to forget is that the input shaft could be 50 years old metal, they were not designed to last this long. the 1300 input shafts have a known weak spot due to their design which is why a 1500 shaft or even better the upgraded shaft is recommended . the special grease is to prevent slip and vibration, also there should be a washer and nylon nut in the end of the shaft.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:03 pm 
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I agree with Steve, i have always used coppaslip on clutches and never had a problem on any car :shock: And as for warranty problems because of it? Never had one turned down because of that :wary: You only use a very small amount so i can't see it getting on the lining either. Older Ford clutches used to squeal like a pig if it it wasn't used.

Tony.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:19 pm 
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Lots of people have "always" used Copperslip on clutches.
Lots have people have got away with it and had no issues.
It does not make it the correct thing to use.... As it's not and never has been a lubricant....
Lots about it online, do some research? Valeo, LUK, Sachs and others (who make a lot of clutches!) specifically say NOT to use it and specify a moly type grease.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:44 pm 
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Hmmm, i wonder if my college lecturers are still alive 8)

Tony.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:31 pm 
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Quote:
Hmmm, i wonder if my college lecturers are still alive 8)

Tony.
Well, since watching QI, i've learned that just about everything I was taught in school is wrong, so I suppose it should come as no surprise that everything I was taught as an apprentice is also wrong!

But Matt is dead right about one thing, a smear of Copaslip wouldn't break the shaft! Does anyone know if the job has been stripped yet? I still fancy a busted driven plate as the second culprit!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:12 am 
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Quote:
You need to speak to the FWD spares man. There is a special grease for these. And no, copperslip is no good.
I've spoken to Allan and ordered that, but I just basically need to explain why it needs to be this special grease and there is no modern equivalent which is up to the job, please.

_________________
Yorkshire resident and Triumph newbie.
Owner of Valerie, a troublesome Triumph 1300 (OFW 776G)

Big hair, old cars and videos over at www.youtube.com/idriveaclassic


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:14 am 
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Quote:
But to snap two in a very short time.... Something else is wrong.
Points that come to mind:

Has the correct gasket been used between engine and box if they have been apart at any time, FWDs use a thin paper gasket. If you use the Herald / Spitfire cork gasket then that's too thick, it will affect the alignment of the input shaft.

Is there excessive crank end float? Common fault on these engines, again if it's shunting about it will stress the shaft.

Is the pilot bearing ok, in place and not worn?

Is the nylon thrust pad in place at the rear of the shaft?

Are the rubber driveshaft couplings in good condition, if they are worn out you can get excessive vibration through the box.

Could you possibly be being excessively rough with it? They are known to be weak, full throttle driving and rough clutch control could snap it..

Matt.
All of the above has been checked and a professional opinion says it's fine, hence my concern.

Could copaslip and a S/H unit have been the culprit?

No excessively rough driving or riding of the clutch. It was a pretty sedate drive out, as are most of the drives in that one! Save the fast driving for the other cars.

_________________
Yorkshire resident and Triumph newbie.
Owner of Valerie, a troublesome Triumph 1300 (OFW 776G)

Big hair, old cars and videos over at www.youtube.com/idriveaclassic


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:36 pm 
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As has been covered above:
No. Copperslip is not the cause. It's the wrong thing to use but the wear it causes is long term, not in a few hundred miles. The correct grease is a special formulation for this application to stop fretting and stripping.
Have you got the damaged shaft out yet? Has it snapped or has it stripped? Until you know the reason it went it's pointless fitting another. If it's a clean break and you are convinced you were not rough with it then it could simply be a bad second hand shaft - maybe been dropped at some point.


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