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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:26 pm 
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Location: South Benfleet, Essex
Introduction

Although the Triumph Toledo has quite effective heating, demisting / defrosting, heating & ventilation, there is scope for improvement; particularly with regard to general heating effectiveness, plus hot-air & cold-air distribution. Maintaining a frost-free windscreen during the engine warm-up period, following manual defrosting using an ice scraper and alcohol-based de-icer fluid, also leaves much to be desired!

In the early-1980s, whilst upgrading the engine cooling system, with a thermostatically-controlled Kenlowe electric radiator-cooling fan, I discovered that the 82 ºC “summer” wax thermostat actually started opening at just 72 ºC. This was replaced with an 88 ºC “winter” wax thermostat.

The higher opening-temperature of the wax thermostat, in combination with disabling the V-belt driven radiator cooling-fan, resulted in quicker warm-up of the engine, higher operational cooling-system water temperature and consequent increase in the outlet air-temperatures to the foot wells and windscreen demister / defroster vents.

In common with the Triumph Dolomite 1300 & 1500, the Triumph Toledo 1300 & 1500 has only two heater-box outlets; one at the top, to the windscreen demister / defroster vents, and the other at the bottom, to the foot-well vents. However, the Triumph 1500 & 1500TC and Triumph Dolomite 1500HL, 1850, 1850HL & Sprint, have an additional heater-box outlet, to moulded plastic vents (with provision for the carburettor-choke control and cigar lighter) beneath the associated dashboard, directed horizontally towards the rear.

Improving Air-Flow Distribution

Amongst various items I salvaged from a defunct Triumph Dolomite 1500HL, was the heater box with three air-flow outlets (upward, downward & horizontal) and the moulded plastic vents with carburettor-choke control and cigar lighter, which are compatible with the sculptured “four-headlamp” Dolomite dashboard that was substituted into my Triumph Toledo in 1984, so this is something I intend to implement in the future.

Although the heating system also serves as a cold-air ventilation system, when the hot water from the engine’s cooling system to the heater unit is shut off, in addition to the dedicated cold-air ventilation vents at either end of the dashboard, it would be desirable to supplement the cold-air ventilation provision, especially at leg and lower-torso levels, to improve evaporation of sweat during periods of hot, humid weather; something for which I felt the need during past summers.

This is something I am still considering; especially in the absence of a comprehensive air-conditioning option. That said, I did once stumble upon an E-bay listing, for what was described as part of an air-conditioning system for a Triumph Toledo (not SEAT Toledo!), so whether a bespoke air-conditioning system was ever available for these cars is something I would be interested to learn.

One option I am considering, is the use of Y-junctions inserted into the hoses that connect to the dashboard’s two circular vents and/or fitting supplementary cold/hot air-supply outlet spigots to the front & sides of the sheet-steel heater box. These would be connected via ducts and/or hoses to vents beneath the dashboard. I have past experience of fabricating GRP – glass reinforced plastic, bespoke Y-junction hot-air ducts for a classic air-cooled 1973 VW 1600 Type 2, but suitable readymade components might also be available from retailers such as Car Builder Solutions. I have yet to consider whether it would be practical to incorporate additional vents into the upper horizontal surface of the dashboard!?!

Heater-booster fan, GRP T-junction adapters for 1972~79 model-year VW 1600 Type 2

Image

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/CatalogueRequest

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/heating-a ... entilation

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/heating-a ... and-scoops

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/ducting

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/dash-vents

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/demist

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/heatac

De-Icing Front Windscreens and Other Windows

Starting the engine from cold, on some cold winter days, after I had defrosted the external surfaces of the front windscreen and other windows, using an ice-scraper and alcohol-based de-icer fluid, it was noticeable after driving less than half a mile, that ice had started to form on the interior surface of the front windscreen, as a consequence of my moist breath condensing and freezing on the cold glass, seriously impairing visibility. This forced me to stop the car in a safe place, and defrost the interior surface of the front windscreen.

Following that experience, two possible contributory factors came to mind. Reflecting on what I had done and not done, I surmised that residual alcohol-based de-icer fluid might have evaporated, cooling the front windscreen glass. Consequently, I resolved that in the future, I would wipe off any residual de-icer fluid using an absorbent cloth or old newspaper, before starting the engine and driving off.

Some car owners start the engine and allow it to warm-up at fast-idle, with the carburettor-choke engaged, whilst they defrost the windscreen and other windows. This has the advantage prior to driving off, of pre-heating the engine-coolant supplying the cabin-heater cum windscreen demister / defroster, but is likely to result in premature engine wear. Ideally, one would pre-heat the engine-coolant by some means, prior to starting the engine, which would both minimise engine wear and provide effective windscreen defrosting from start-up! An electrically-heated front windscreen would also be beneficial, especially if the means to pre-heat the engine-coolant were not readily available.

240V or 110V (only North American and Japan?) AC-Mains, Electrical Engine-Coolant Pre-Heaters

Since circa 1982/83, I have been aware of electrical engine-coolant pre-heaters, made by companies such as Calix and Fonås (featured in some Swedish automotive mail-order catalogues, I was given by my Swedish university-friend Kjell B. Gestlöv), which were routinely retro-fitted to cars in Sweden and possibly other Scandinavian countries. These were typically part of a comprehensive system which also recharged the starter-battery, pre-heated the air in the passenger cabin and worked off a timer which was either in the car or plugged into the domestic 240V AC mains electric-supply socket. I believe that many public and work-place car parks in Sweden, provided weather-proof, 240V AC mains electric-supply sockets, to which one could connect these systems.

Several years later, in post-1990, I learned of the British made Kenlowe HOTSTART© HS4 engine/interior pre-heating system for cars, of which there were three models, rated at 240V & 3•0 kW (Kenlowe part No. HS4 3.0), 240V & 2•3 kW (Kenlowe part No. HS4 2.3) or 110V & 1•2 kW (no part number given, but predict HS4 1.2 as being likely), with the no-cost option of either 5/8 inch or 7/8 inch (i.e. 16 mm or 22 mm) hose connections; of which I still have the sales leaflet (two A4 pages) & brochure (eight A4 pages). The quoted retail price of £116•78 + VAT for the standard 3•0 kW model without any extra-cost options, seemed excessive more than two decades ago, and even now that seems expensive!

I believe the quoted price of £116•78 + VAT was just for the standard engine pre-heating option without the supplementary extra-cost interior pre-heating option, for which one needed to cite the associated part number suffix KLM 2016, for which no price was quoted. The standard Kenlowe HS4 unit is supplied with a standard 1•5 metre long electrical-supply cable with connector-plug to mount on the front bumper and a weather-proof socket to fit onto one’s domestic electrical extension cable. There are listed extra-cost options of similar 2•5 metre or 5•0 metre long electrical-supply cables with connector-plug, having part number suffices KLM 2014 and KLM 2015 respectively.

Discounting the various supplementary mounting bracket options, Kenlowe’s two-page leaflet and eight-page brochure specify their units as having the following dimensions, not including the hose-connection spigots:

6 inches (15 cm) deep x 3 inches (7•6 cm) wide x 5•5 inches (15 cm) high [Nigel’s note: 14 cm high!]

4 inches (100 mm) length x 3 inches (76 mm) wide x 5-3/8 inches (137 mm) high

The stated conversions between Imperial and metric units of measurement are at the very least confusing and inaccurate, given that 1 inch = 25•399 mm or 2•5399 cm! Hence, if the measurements in Imperial units are exact, then 3 inches = 76•2 mm = 7•62 cm, 4 inches = 101•6 mm = 10•16 cm, 5-3/8 inches = 136•5 mm = 13•65 cm, 5•5 inches = 139•7 mm = 13•97 cm, and 6 inches = 152•4 mm = 15•24 cm. If available mounting clearances are likely to be marginal, it would be wise to request accurate measurements, to a tolerance of no more than ± 1 mm.

It’s interesting to note, that two Kenlowe ‘Hotstart’ kits, described as “Engine Pre-Heater” (part No. RX1361) and “Engine & Interior Pre-Heater” (part No. RX1362), are listed in the Accessories section, on Page 43 of the September 1998 issue, of the Rimmer Brothers’ Triumph Dolomite parts catalogue, and on Page 84 of the April 1998 edition of their All Models Parts Price Guide; which are described therein as follows:

« Engine Pre-Heater (part No. RX1361 | £125•18 + VAT = £147•09) – Compact and easy to fit, engine ‘Hotstart’ overcomes much of the discomfort, high fuel costs and engine wear associated with starting from cold – especially in winter, whether the vehicle is garaged or left out in the open. »

« Engine & Interior Pre-Heater (part No. RX1362 | £163•18 + VAT = £191•74) – Working in conjunction with the engine ‘Hotstart’, this system ensures the car interior is preheated too, giving you the benefits of demisted / de-iced windscreen / windows, before you start your next journey. »


Owing to the high costs involved, I did not invest in the Kenlowe system; either direct from Kenlowe or from Rimmer Brothers.

In their sales leaflet and brochure, Kenlowe present a bar-graph of test data, said to show the excess fuel used during warm-up on a typical family saloon using a standard automatic choke, with the test carried out at an average speed of 45 mph and a relatively mild ambient air temperature of 15 ºC. At distances of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9 miles from cold start, the excess fuel used during stages of the warm-up period, claimed by Kenlowe, was illustrated to be 46%, 42%, 35%, 30%, 25%, 21%, 17%, 14% & 12% respectively.

I don’t know how true or representative this data is, but my own experience of driving the same 15•7 mile commuter route each day during the mid-1980s, indicated average fuel consumption rates for my Triumph Toledo, of circa 39 mpg & 37 mpg during summer & winter respectively; driving on Cosmic 5½ x 13 inch alloy wheels with 175 SR13 tyres (not 175/70 SR13 tyres!), of about 5•5% larger rolling-circumference than the factory-standard 155 SR13 tyres. This was a significant difference in fuel economy, associated with the duration of the engine warm-up period.

In mid-2021, whilst reinvestigating electrical engine-coolant pre-heaters, I discovered that several Chinese made models (e.g. GELAND brand!?!) rated at 220V AC & 3•0 kW, 2•0 kW or 1•5 kW, were listed on E-bay at the relatively modest price range of circa £30~£40 including postage. If these are of reasonable quality, durability and reliability, they warrant further investigation; especially if one uses one’s car for short journeys.

The “approximate” external dimensions of those Chinese models I briefly examined, were described as follows:

1•5 kW model – 81 mm x 79 mm x 120 mm

2•0 kW model – 77 mm length x 75 mm width x 118 mm height

3•0 kW model – 80 mm x 126 mm x 200 mm

If one were to fit an electrical engine-coolant pre-heater, it would be preferable to use one with the highest available electrical-power output, subject to any unit-size or power-supply constraints, in order to minimise both the heating time and the total standing heat losses from the coolant & engine-block during the heating cycle, by conduction, convection & radiation. Given that United Kingdom domestic electrical power sockets have a maximum current-rating of no more than 13A, the electrical engine-coolant pre-heater, should be rated at no more than 3•0 kW at 240V AC.

Electrically-Heated, Laminated Front Windscreens

Ideally I would like to substitute an after-market, electrically-heated front windscreen into my Toledo, but they are not yet available for Triumph Toledos or Dolomites, despite being readily available for other classic vehicles of 1960s & 1970s vintage, including some of the Triumph sports cars and 1968~79 model-year VW Type 2 Transporters. At the moment, the following supplier of after-market electrically-heated front windscreens, only lists the Triumph TR4 & TR7 models.

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

Several VWs are listed, including various VW Type 1 Beetle models, the 1968~79 VW Type 2, 1980~92 VW Transporter T3 and various more modern vehicles.

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

These electrically-heated, laminated windscreens typically have two separate left-hand & right-hand heated zones, which in principle, could be switched on/off independently of one another, to minimise the load on a vehicle’s electrical system, which would be quite considerable as a proportion of most classic-cars’ dynamo or alternator maximum current output.

The electrically-heated windscreen for the 1968~79 VW Type 2 Transporters, on which my 1973 model-year VW “1600” Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan is based [substituted a 1911 cm² VW Type 4 style engine in place of the original 1584 cm² VW Type 1 style engine], is rated as having a current-load of 2 x 19A = 38A, which equals the total maximum current output of the vehicle’s original factory-fitted Bosch 38A dynamo, and would still be a substantial proportion of that from the Bosch 50A or 55A alternators, with which later model-year vehicles were equipped.

Assuming electrically-heated windscreens ever became available for the Triumph Toledo & Dolomite, it’s likely that the current-load would be related to windscreen area, which is probably somewhat smaller than that of the 1968~79 VW Type 2 Transporter. However, it’s likely that the current-load would still be quite substantial, so it would probably be desirable to have only one of the windscreen heated zones switched on at any given time, even if one substantially uprated the alternator (same-size Lucas ACR series: 28A - 15ACR, 34A - 16ACR, 36A - 17ACR & 43A - 18ACR) on one’s Triumph Toledo or Dolomite.

Dependent upon the switch configuration, this could readily be implemented using either two or three accessory relays (the third relay, if appropriate, being a standard changeover relay), in conjunction with a single double-throw switch, such as a second-hand, square-knobbed headlamp switch (to match the other Triumph dashboard switches) from a Triumph Toledo. I have designed two alternative simple circuits (with either two or three relays), for my 1973 VW “1600” Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan, to which I intend to fit an electrically-heated, laminated front windscreen, as a replacement for the original factory-fitted zone-toughened windscreen.

Headlamp double-throw switches, are generally of a type where either just the side-light circuit is live, or both the side-light & headlamp circuits are live. If such a double-throw switch were to be used for an electrically-heated front windscreen, then one would need to use the slightly more complex circuit option with three accessory relays and only a little more short-length wiring between relays, which could be mounted together in the same multi-way relay mounting cum connector block, such as those I salvaged from Austin Montego cars.

Unlike the post-1970 model-year VW Type 2 Transporters, the Triumph Toledo & Dolomite have only two simple electrical supply options, which are either direct battery supplies (fused or unfused) or ignition-controlled supplies; the latter of which is live irrespective of whether the starter-motor is operating or not. If one has high-current systems, such as front lighting (headlamps, front fog lamps & auxiliary driving lamps), an electrically-heated rear window and/or an electrically-heated front windscreen, it would be desirable to automatically switch off these high-current systems whilst the engine is being started, such as on occasions when the engine stalls.

In addition to a simple ignition-controlled supply (terminal-15 in the DIN Standard), the post-1970 model-year VW Type 2 Transporters, have another ignition-controlled supply (terminal-X in the DIN Standard), which is only live when the starter-motor is NOT operating; a facility which can readily be mimicked for the Triumph Toledo & Dolomite, using another circuit I designed several years ago, for use on pre-1971 model-year VW Type 2 Transporters, which similarly did not have this facility.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:47 pm 
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If you are looking at pre-heaters then I would suggest you consider a second hand Webasto or Eberspacher, loads around and mains independent.

Re windscreens I'm sure the club was looking at a group buy on windscreens with optional heating element being on offer.

_________________
1977 1850 HL manual O/D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:09 pm 
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Maybe wearing a face mask when driving will reduce the amount of moisture condensing on the inside of the glass.

Jeroen.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:53 pm 
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Quote:
This is something I am still considering; especially in the absence of a comprehensive air-conditioning option. That said, I did once stumble upon an E-bay listing, for what was described as part of an air-conditioning system for a Triumph Toledo (not SEAT Toledo!), so whether a bespoke air-conditioning system was ever available for these cars is something I would be interested to learn.
Yes, Nigel, I understand one was offered for the Sprint in Australia at some stage. Not seen one but I know this as I was offered a secondhand complete kit for AUD1000 plus freight almost two decades ago. I declined! Given the cost, I suspect it was something quite generic perhaps fitted on the passenger side parcel shelf (as I have seen in other cars of the era). Also suspect it was not sold in large numbers.

I have lost touch with the person who made me the offer, so can't add anything else. At least you know something was once available

Geoff


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:33 pm 
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If you canvas the American aftermarket sector, i'm sure you'll find a generic aircon system to suit your car, or that can be adapted. Especially since it is nearly identical mechanically to a Triumph Spitfire, which was sold in the States in large numbers. I watched a "wheeler dealers" episode recently where they successfully fitted such a system to a 1950s Volvo PV544. IIRC the system itself wasn't THAT pricey. Getting it to the UK might be a bit problematic though.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 4:38 pm
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Location: South Benfleet, Essex
Petrol-Fired Space Heaters
Quote:
If you are looking at pre-heaters then I would suggest you consider a second hand Webasto or Eberspacher, loads around and mains independent.
From what I have learned over the years, of petrol-fired space-heaters such as Webasto, Eberspächer and Southwind etc, regarding 1968~79 VW Type 2 Transporters with air-cooled engines, I get the impression that such a heater would be a large capital cost, be expensive to run & maintain and retro-fitment would be far from easy, especially in a small car with water-cooled engine and limited space for installation of a separate air-duct system.

Electrically-Heated Front Windscreens
Quote:
Re windscreens I'm sure the club was looking at a group buy on windscreens with optional heating element being on offer.
I have yet to learn of any success by the Triumph Dolomite Club, in negotiating the bulk manufacture of electrically-heated front windscreens for the Triumph 1500 & 1500TC, Triumph Toledo and Triumph Dolomite, so if you are aware that such a venture has come to fruition I would be interested to learn more!?!

I am certainly aware of inquiries regarding the replication of the non-heated Sundym tinted windscreens by Pilkington, that were factory-fitted to some of the late-model Dolomites. From what I have read, Pilkington will make these to order, but at horrendously expensive prices like £544•19 = £453•49 + 20% VAT or even £447•94 = £373•28 + 20% VAT, for what are just basic non-heated windscreens!

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Sales & Wants » Wanted Ads » Front Sundym Windscreen

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 10&t=31969

On Thursday, 10th December 2020, “Manta” wrote:

« Just been quoted from Pilkington £373•28 for green with top tint, and rather surprisingly £453•49 for just Green! I would have expected the other way round, Ps both prices + the dreaded VAT. »


When in late-1986, my 1974 Triumph Toledo’s “quasi-original” Triplex laminated windscreen suffered a major crack following a stone impact, it was replaced by a Solaglas laminated windscreen with blue-tinted upper shade band, which cost a total of £62•42 inclusive of 15% VAT.

Receipt from Smith Glass for a Triumph Dolomite or Toledo laminated windscreen, with blue tinted shade band, dated 11th November 1986

Image

Looking at replacement windscreens for other cars from the Rover Group, one might have expected the non-heated, tinted windscreens, to be at least half the price that has been mentioned. When one examines the pricing and availability of electrically-heated front windscreens, with either (a) clear glass, (b) clear glass & tinted shade band, and (c) tinted glass, for a variety of classic and modern-classic cars, the pricing seems quite reasonable. For example, this is what I found for the BMC/BLMC Austin-Morris Mini, whose prices including VAT @ 20%, range from £166•80 to £174•00; the tinting accounting for only £7•20 of the total cost:

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

MINI CLASSIC CLEAR HEATED WINDSCREEN - Ref: 7002ACLH

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... creen.html

£139.00 + VAT @ 20%

MINI CLASSIC TOP TINT HEATED WINDSCREEN - Ref: 7002AGNGNH

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... creen.html

£145.00 + VAT @ 20%

MINI CLASSIC TINTED HEATED WINDSCREEN - Ref: 7002AGNH

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... creen.html

£145.00 + VAT @ 20%

Larger electrically-heated front windscreens for other classic and modern-classic cars, typically cost about £230~£250 + VAT @ 20%, which is still very much cheaper than what was quoted for the replication of non-heated Sundym tinted windscreens.

According to the “How Many Left” website, in 2021, there are 221 licenced examples of the Vauxhall Chevette in its various forms and just 85 licenced examples of the Sunbeam Stilleto, and yet electrically-heated, replacement laminated front windscreens are available for these. I suspect that there are significantly more licenced Triumph 1500s, 1500TCs, Toledos & Dolomites, and yet I have so far found no sources of electrically-heated, replacement laminated front windscreens for these. I wonder why!

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

Interior Misting & Frosting
Quote:
Maybe wearing a face mask when driving will reduce the amount of moisture condensing on the inside of the glass.

Jeroen.
Wearing a mask might reduce moisture condensing on the inside of the windows, but you can be sure that my spectacles would mist over rapidly, as they have when visiting shops during the COVID-19 restrictions; even in summer.

Air-Conditioning
Quote:
Yes, Nigel, I understand one was offered for the Sprint in Australia at some stage. Not seen one but I know this as I was offered a secondhand complete kit for AUD1000 plus freight almost two decades ago. I declined! Given the cost, I suspect it was something quite generic perhaps fitted on the passenger side parcel shelf (as I have seen in other cars of the era). Also suspect it was not sold in large numbers.

I have lost touch with the person who made me the offer, so can't add anything else. At least you know something was once available

Geoff
I would still regard ONE THOUSAND Australia dollars as a LOT of money in 2021 for a second-hand air-conditioning system (especially a generic one), even without the cost of shipping! The factory-fitted extra-cost option of air-conditioning and anti-lock brakes were marginally less than £1000 each, for my father’s ex-demonstrator 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4, for which he paid £12,500 in 1987.
Quote:
If you canvas the American aftermarket sector, i'm sure you'll find a generic aircon system to suit your car, or that can be adapted. Especially since it is nearly identical mechanically to a Triumph Spitfire, which was sold in the States in large numbers. I watched a "wheeler dealers" episode recently where they successfully fitted such a system to a 1950s Volvo PV544. IIRC the system itself wasn't THAT pricey. Getting it to the UK might be a bit problematic though.

Steve
Generic retro-fit air-conditioning systems are available in Great Britain from sources like Car Builder Solutions, but they are certainly expensive.

www.carbuildersolutions.com

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/heating-a ... entilation

I also saw the “Wheeler Dealers” episode about the 1950s vintage Volvo PV544 in the USA, but I think you and I have very different interpretations of what might be regarded as “not that pricey”. Historically, my car upgrades have all been accomplished by spending ones or tens of pounds Sterling. I don’t think I am ready to make the transition to thousands of pounds Sterling, and even hundreds of pounds Sterling is something I regard as major expenditure!

If I were to retro-fit an “affordable” air-conditioning system, I would want to integrate it into the existing or modified heating & ventilation system.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:46 pm 
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You may need to do some more research. Both Webasto an Eberspacher make heaters for water cooled cars. Standard fit in many colder European countries. Had one in my Mk4 Golf. Easy to source used, just need to find a suitable space for it and split the heater hose so coolant routes through it. Controlled via a timer, key fob or from your mobile phone if you really want to go to town. They also bring in the heater fan so you come out to a fully defrosted warm car and drive off smugly whilst your neighbours battle with scrapers :D

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1977 1850 HL manual O/D


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Petrol-Fired Space Heaters

I also saw the “Wheeler Dealers” episode about the 1950s vintage Volvo PV544 in the USA, but I think you and I have very different interpretations of what might be regarded as “not that pricey”. Historically, my car upgrades have all been accomplished by spending ones or tens of pounds Sterling. I don’t think I am ready to make the transition to thousands of pounds Sterling, and even hundreds of pounds Sterling is something I regard as major expenditure!
Far TOO pricey for me personally too. But these sort of kits involving all new parts are never cheap, you are paying for what amounts to 1off production.

The problem with stuff like aircon, is that it requires production of bespoke high pressure pipework, which in turn requires specialist equipment to manufacture. It's not something you can whomp up on a kitchen table. Getting the "big bones" of the system is not much more than a scrapyard visit and you can acquire pump, condenser, dryer, radiator etc from 1 or more moderns to suit your space. Pump mount brackets can be fabricated and pulleys repurposed, even control panels and wiring is available if you are on good terms with a scrappie. But the aluminium pre-shaped pipework cannot be altered or bent. which causes an impasse.

There is also another consideration to make. A typical aircon pump consumes 10 or more BHP just to drive it. Modern cars have circuitry to increase the idle speed when the aircon is on, just to prevent the engine stalling from the increased load! With the Toledo only having a meager 64 bhp to start with, you can hardly spare 15-20% of it, just to provide a little creature comfort! It'll use a lot more fuel too!

I could easily have kept the Omega's aircon pump on the Dolomega and found, or had fabricated, other bits to make it work. I didn't even consider it, as the power and economy trade off was too expensive. And that was on an engine with nearly 150BHP available.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:02 am 
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For the Vencer Supercar I used at that time to prototype and first few productions AC pipe u-bend-em. The name says it all and these are easy to hand bend aluminium AC pipes available in a few sizes and lengths and pre fitted unions to fit to the components or to have hoses crimped on. Easy to use and have a neat look.

Jeroen

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:51 pm 
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Quote:
You may need to do some more research. Both Webasto and Eberspacher make heaters for water cooled cars. Standard fit in many colder European countries. Had one in my Mk4 Golf. Easy to source used, just need to find a suitable space for it and split the heater hose so coolant routes through it. Controlled via a timer, key fob or from your mobile phone if you really want to go to town. They also bring in the heater fan so you come out to a fully defrosted warm car and drive off smugly whilst your neighbours battle with scrapers :D

I’ve heard of these strange devices called “mobile telephones”, but I’ve never owned or used one of these and never found a need for one. At some time in the future, I might acquire a basic early-generation, turn of the century, mobile telephone with basic audio & text facilities for emergencies only, now that British-Telecom, AA & RAC telephone boxes are not so much in evidence these days.

I don’t really know anything about auxiliary petrol or diesel fired heaters for anything other than Volkswagens with air-cooled engines. I get the impression that replacement parts for these heaters are rather expensive and the fuel-costs of running them is also a concern. From my perspective a VW Golf Mk.4 would be far too modern, but I am not averse to salvaging some parts and systems from modern vehicles, provided they are not too sophisticated.

Your observations suggest that these second-hand units are most likely to be listed on Scandinavian and northern European equivalents to E-bay or the vehicle-dismantler networks there. I am aware of an extensive vehicle-dismantler network in Sweden, but their website has yet to incorporate an English translation facility.

Quote:
Far TOO pricey for me personally too. But these sort of kits involving all new parts are never cheap, you are paying for what amounts to 1off production.

The problem with stuff like aircon, is that it requires production of bespoke high pressure pipework, which in turn requires specialist equipment to manufacture. It's not something you can whomp up on a kitchen table. Getting the "big bones" of the system is not much more than a scrapyard visit and you can acquire pump, condenser, dryer, radiator etc from 1 or more moderns to suit your space. Pump mount brackets can be fabricated and pulleys repurposed, even control panels and wiring is available if you are on good terms with a scrappie. But the aluminium pre-shaped pipework cannot be altered or bent. which causes an impasse.

There is also another consideration to make. A typical aircon pump consumes 10 or more BHP just to drive it. Modern cars have circuitry to increase the idle speed when the aircon is on, just to prevent the engine stalling from the increased load! With the Toledo only having a meager 64 bhp to start with, you can hardly spare 15-20% of it, just to provide a little creature comfort! It'll use a lot more fuel too!

I could easily have kept the Omega's aircon pump on the Dolomega and found, or had fabricated, other bits to make it work. I didn't even consider it, as the power and economy trade off was too expensive. And that was on an engine with nearly 150BHP available.

Steve

Back in the late-1980s, the Triumph Toledo 1300 with its 58 horsepower engine, could just about reach 80 mph, on the sole occasion I investigated its maximum speed on a relatively empty motorway. Most of the time, under circa 40~50 mph cruise conditions on A-class roads, one would only use a relatively small proportion of the car’s maximum power, so there should be enough reserve power to run an air-conditioning system under these circumstances.

I am aware that old-technology, positive displacement air-conditioning compressors [as used on 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s (with VW Type 4 style air-cooled engine of 66, 68 & 70 DIN horsepower respectively), in hot southern states of the USA] consumed a lot of engine power, but I have read that the modern rotary air-conditioning compressors, such as those made by Sanden, consume much less power, in the region of 3 horsepower.

It should only consume power (and associated increase in petrol consumption) when the compressor’s electro-magnetic clutch is engaged, which I would only use during very hot and/or humid conditions. These days, there are also electric air-conditioning compressors available; as featured in an episode of “Vintage Voltage”, pertaining to a VW-Porsche 914 conversion, but I don’t yet know how much power they consume.

My father’s ex-demonstrator 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4, had the extra-cost option of factory-fitted air conditioning with R12 refrigerant, which he didn’t know how to use effectively, so I had to adjust the controls for him; but then I did have the advantage of studying air-conditioning principles at university, as well as properly assimilating the appropriate information in the owner’s handbook, and having some practical experience with Carrier Corporation’s air-con equipment, at my industrial sponsor Haden Carrier, in which I worked in the Building Services section of the Group Central Engineering Laboratories.

Sadly, I haven’t visited a car breaker’s yard since the late-1990s or early-2000s, so I don’t have an on-going relationship with any local car dismantlers, but I would be VERY reluctant to source all new components. As you have said, it should be possible in principle to source a selection of suitable second-hand components, to make up most of a system. One concern, is the recent trend in using c-pentane (a highly inflammable cyclo-alkane – recalling that n-pentane is used in petrol to aid cold starting!) rather than R12 or R134a as a refrigerant in refrigerators, freezers and air-conditioning systems.

Before I even consider embarking on such a venture, I would need to see how typical automotive, combination heating, ventilation, air-conditioning & demist / defrost systems are constructed and whether it would be practical to fabricate a similar system that could be integrated into a Triumph Toledo or Dolomite. I would probably have more success sourcing for my 1973 VW Type 2 Westfalia Continental motor-caravan, a second-hand, bespoke air-conditioning system from the southern USA, where such dealership-fitted systems were common.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:54 pm 
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240V or 110V (only North American & Japan?) AC-Mains, Electrical Engine-Coolant Pre-Heaters

On Wednesday, 29th September 2021, Nigel A. Skeet wrote:

« Since circa 1982/83, I have been aware of electrical engine-coolant pre-heaters, made by companies such as Calix and Fonås (featured in some Swedish automotive mail-order catalogues, I was given by my Swedish university-friend Kjell B. Gestlöv), which were routinely retro-fitted to cars in Sweden and possibly other Scandinavian countries. These were typically part of a comprehensive system which also recharged the starter-battery, pre-heated the air in the passenger cabin and worked off a timer which was either in the car or plugged into the domestic 240V AC mains electric-supply socket. I believe that many public and work-place car parks in Sweden, provided weather-proof, 240V AC mains electric-supply sockets, to which one could connect these systems. »


I recalled that one of the automotive mail-order catalogues from circa 1982/83, in which I found the electrical engine-coolant pre-heaters made by Calix, was from Biltema in Sweden, who are still a major supplier, with retail warehouses in many major towns in Sweden, Finland and some of the Baltic states. Biltema still list Calix heaters and associated components on their website.

https://www.biltema.se

https://www.biltema.se/en-se

Calix Engine Heaters & Accessories

https://www.biltema.se/soksida/?query=Calix

https://www.biltema.se/bil---mc/biltill ... 2000044383

https://www.biltema.se/soksida/?query=C ... otorwarmer

https://www.biltema.se/bil---mc/biltill ... 2000044383

Surprisingly, whilst researching SPAL radiator cooling fans, I also stumbled upon electrical engine-coolant pre-heaters made by Calix, featured on the website of T7 Design in or near Exeter.

T7 Design Ltd, Unit 4, Clyst Units, Cofton Road, Marsh Barton, Exeter, EX2 8QW, UK

Tel. +44 (0) 1392 423 390

Fax. +44 (0) 7595 975 777

E-mail: info@t7design.co.uk

https://www.t7design.co.uk/

https://www.t7design.co.uk/engine-heating.html

Engine Heater PH2000H 2000w 230v (60-80c) 1833200 | £201.60 = £168.00 + VAT

https://www.t7design.co.uk/engine-heate ... 33200.html

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:57 pm 
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Heating & Ventilation for Rear Passengers

Despite the ever more sophisticated automotive technology, I have long wondered over the past few decades, why there has been a failure to provide a heating & ventilation system for rear seat passengers; apart from that in the rear-engined, air-cooled VW Type 1 Beetle (and possibly the VW Types 3 & 4), which used the hollow sills as hot-air ducts, from the engine exhaust-gas to fresh-air heat exchangers. My father had a 1964 VW 1200 Type 1 Beetle, in which the hot-air from the rear passenger-cabin heater vents, could be uncomfortably hot on one’s ankles, but at least we didn’t get cold in the back!

I certainly don’t recall there being any effective heating for rear-seat passengers in my father’s later cars, which were a 1968 Daf 44, 1972 FIAT 124 Special T, 1977 Honda 1500 Civic, 1982 Honda 1600 Accord, 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4 (with factory-fitted optional air-conditioning and ATE Alfred-Teves anti-lock brakes) and a finally a 2004 SEAT Leon Cupra 20V Turbo; plus the 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 motor-caravan and 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, which I still have.

In this context, I cannot really comment on my father’s earlier car, which was a late-1940s vintage Morris 8 Series E (we had this car from at least 1956 until 1964), which had no heating system at all, for either the driver or passengers, so warm clothing and travel blankets were a pre-requisite for winter travel between Dundee and London.

My father's late-1940s vintage, Morris-8 Series-E two-door saloon, near a rural river-bridge in Scotland, prior to mid-1964

Image

Several years ago, I found in a 1982 Swedish automotive mail-order catalogue, an Aurora supplementary heater unit, intended for the rear passenger cabin, of buses & minibuses with a water-cooled engine. This was a self-contained unit, mounted to a side panel, having both a heater matrix (i.e. small liquid-to-air cross-flow heat exchanger) and a fan, which plumbed into the vehicle’s standard cabin-heating system or engine-cooling system.

Aurora supplementary water-heating radiator etc for the passenger-cabin of buses & minibuses

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album ... id=2343545

Image

I envisage that it might be possible to devise something similar for the Triumph Toledo & Dolomite, but the challenge would be to determine, where one could locate such a unit, its controls and warm-air vents; for which the options are probably limited!?! Potential locations for warm-air vents that warrant investigation, would be (a) the transmission-tunnel, (b) the rear-quarter C-pillars, (c) the rear parcel shelf, (d) the seat base, and (e) the rear-door trim panels. Any heater unit would probably need to be located in the boot behind the rear seat.

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:32 pm 
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Electrically-Heated Front Windscreens continued

It appears that the custom-made, electrically-heated, laminated front windscreens for classic cars, supplied by Ricky Evans Motorsport, might actually be produced by a small, specialist company called Tyneside Safety Glass.

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

https://www.heatedwindscreen.com/acatal ... reens.html

On Freeview television-channel Quest, Tyneside Safety Glass and Ricky Evans Motorsport were featured during an episode of Salvage Hunters: Classic Cars, screened on Wednesday, 26th January 2022, pertaining to a second-hand 1970s vintage Alfa Romeo GTV, imported from South Africa, which needed its delaminating windscreen replacing. The programme briefly showed how the new, substitute, electrically-heated, laminated front windscreen was made at Tyneside Safety Glass.

Tyneside Safety Glass
Kingsway North,
Team Valley Trading Estate,
Gateshead,
Tyne & Wear,
United Kingdom,
NE11 0JX

Tel. +44 (0) 191 487 5064
Fax: +44 (0) 191 487 3224
E-mail: info@tynesidesafetyglass.com

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/contact-us/

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/about-us/

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/#products

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/#toughened-glass

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/pro ... ned-glass/

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/#laminated-glass

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/pro ... ted-glass/

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/#heated-glass

https://www.tynesidesafetyglass.com/pro ... ndscreens/

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Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:17 pm 
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Heating & Ventilation for Rear Passengers continued
Quote:
Several years ago, I found in an automotive mail-order catalogue (probably Swedish!?!), a supplementary heater unit, intended for the rear passenger cabin, of the 1982~90 VW Transporter T3, with rear-mounted, water-cooled engine. This was a self-contained unit, mounted to a side panel, having both a heater matrix (i.e. small liquid-to-air cross-flow heat exchanger) and a fan, which plumbed into the vehicle’s standard cabin-heating system or engine-cooling system; recalling that in this vehicle, a pair of pipes runs beneath the body, from the rear-mounted engine to the front-mounted radiator.
https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 21#p339121

Since posting the above observation in mid-October 2021, I have recently found in my archived literature, the old Swedish, automotive mail-order catalogue to which I referred. The catalogue from Auto-Delar AB in Södertalje, Sweden, dates from 1982/83.

Contrary to my belief, the product did not relate specifically to rear-engined, water-cooled VW Transporter T3 vehicles as I had supposed, although I would likely have viewed the information in this context, given that water-cooled engines super ceded air-cooled engines in VW Transporter T3 during 1982/83. The product which has more general application, is described & illustrated on Page 142 of the catalogue (I shall endeavour to make a digital scan of this at my local public library when I have the opportunity) appears to be from a company called Aurora. In the meantime, here is a transcript of the associated text in Swedish:

« Räcker värmen inte till? Aurora har värmeväxlare för Vans, minibussar, skåpbillar, arbetsmaskiner, bussar m.m »

« Auroraprogrammet omfattar ett stort antal fläktar och värmeväxlare i olika storlekar för komplettering av befintlig och otillräcklig värme i last-, arbets- eller passagerarutrymmen. Till de vanligaste minibussarna finns kompletta, skräddarsydda monteringssatser för maximal värmetillförsel och minimal inskränkning av lastutrymmet. Aurora värmeväxlare ansluts enkelt via det befintliga kylsystemet. »

« Aurora har också snygga luftmunstycken i olika modeller och flera typer av fläktar »

« Aurora har flera typer av luftmunstycken – runda, rektanglära – fasta eller justerbara. Vill du öka luftcirkulationen för att sprida värmen eller få bort kondens – Aurora har olika fläktar att välja på, radial eller axial. Vi har naturligtvis allt annat du behöver för installationen. »


Using an on-line translator, this translated as follows, but I am not sure what "cabinetbills" are supposed to be:

« Is the heat not enough? Aurora has heat exchangers for Vans, minibuses, cabinetbills, work machines, buses, etc. »

« The Aurora program includes a large number of fans and heat exchangers of different sizes for the addition of existing and insufficient heat in cargo, work or passenger compartments. For the most common minibuses there are complete, tailor-made mounting kits for maximum heat supply and minimal restriction of the cargo space. Aurora heat exchangers are easily connected via the existing cooling system. »

« Aurora also has stylish air nozzles in different models and several types of fans »

« Aurora has several types of air nozzles – round, rectangular – fixed or adjustable. Do you want to increase the air circulation to spread the heat or remove condensation – Aurora has different fans to choose from, radial or axial. Of course, we have everything else you need for the installation. »

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:03 pm 
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I'm going to look at a Sprint which has aircon fitted to it on Monday (for reasons unrelated, he just mentioned it in conversation)

I'll take some pictures for you!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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