The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

The Number One Club for owners of Triumph's range of small saloons from the 1960s and 1970s.
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:48 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:00 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:23 pm
Posts: 253
Location: Aberdeen
Hi All

I have decided to fit a front anti-roll bar, so I got a second had item off eBay for a cheap £15, but to my horror I discovered the cost of the brackets and end links would be over £230 quid! (On Rimmers it would be £60 for the brackets, £23 for the bar bushes and a frightening £148.80 for end link) so I was back on eBay.

Now, round two of eBay and I got another second-hand roll bar but this time with brackets for £26 (anyone in Aberdeen want a front anti roll bar?). Next I got some end links for a more reasonable £80 from Lemans-R Triumph spare via eBay and Superpror bushes for £19 from Robsport, again via eBay. So all in it was a easier to swallow £135, plus £40 for powder coating (If in Aberdeen I definitely recommend Finesse Coatings on Cotton street).

While on Rimmers website to find out the bolt sizes required I saw a rear Anti roll bar for £36 and thought, why not? After getting a bit carried away with hardware and £70 later, I had a rear anti roll bar and a bag of bolts, nuts and washers deliveried the next day. Now, have everything (so I think) ready to go, I paint the end links and the rear bar (it comes with no kind of coating I could make out) and get ready to fit the front roll bar. As I am sure you could guessed I have spotted I don’t have the spacers for the end links, so now I am stuck awaiting some steel to make then, so I moved onto the rear bar.

As per the photos it fitted very well, but the question is, since I will be making some spacers for the front, should I get some longer bolts and fit some spacers internally to the trailing arms? Hopefully that should be good at reinforcing the arms, I have seen people welding plates on top and I think this would be a better idea?

Hopefully update this soon with the front fitted and some trailing arm reinforcement. I really am interest to see what this does to the handling.

Regards

Barry


Attachments:
File comment: Trailing - Fit spacers here?
SM - 1500TC - Rear roll bar - Fitted trailing arm.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Rear roll bar - Fitted trailing arm.jpg [ 114.83 KiB | Viewed 634 times ]
File comment: Fitted
SM - 1500TC - Rear roll bar - Fitted.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Rear roll bar - Fitted.jpg [ 254.05 KiB | Viewed 634 times ]
File comment: To fit
SM - 1500TC - Rear roll bar - To be fitted.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Rear roll bar - To be fitted.jpg [ 154.2 KiB | Viewed 634 times ]

_________________
Aberdeen

1975 Triumph 1500 TC various shades of blue
Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:14 pm 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:41 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Silsoe, Beds
You said you fitted a front anti roll bar but it looks like a rear one.

I fitted a rear one to my 1300 too.

MAS


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:01 pm 
Offline
TDC West Mids Area Organiser
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 13317
Location: Over here...can't you see me?
There is a bolt hole through both sides of the rear trailing arm purely to avoid there being a pair of handed parts; having both bolt holes means the part is universal to both sides. The rear anti-roll bar is only intended to bolt through the inner wall of the trailing arm; it would make it significantly stiffer, probably too stiff, were it bolted through both walls with or without a spacer...they reduced the wire gauge used to make the rear ARB very early on as it was too stiff...


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:37 am 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:23 pm
Posts: 253
Location: Aberdeen
Quote:
You said you fitted a front anti roll bar but it looks like a rear one.

I fitted a rear one to my 1300 too.

MAS
Hi Mas

I think you need to re-read what I posted! :mrgreen:

The front Anti-roll bar is awaiting some spacers, so I fitted the rear in the mean time.

Regards

Barry

_________________
Aberdeen

1975 Triumph 1500 TC various shades of blue


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:50 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7015
Location: Highley, Shropshire
What Alun said ^^^^^^^

The extra holes in the trailing arm are purely a production economy measure.

I'd also question the usefulness of stiffening the trailing arm at this point as it's nowhere near where they habitually fail, which is just at the curve where the arm kicks up to the back axle fitting bush. Again, as Alun said, stiffening it here could likely increase the strain on the weakest point (which is elsewhere) and cause an even more premature failure.

I don't actually want to think about the effects on handling of your current situation with a rear ARB fitted and no front one! Having a front ARB on a Dolomite shaped car is, IMO, an absolute necessity, it gets rid of a whole heap of roly-poly-ness and turn in understeer. The effects of the rear bar are a lot more subjective, some people think it works better without one (including the works BTCC team who substituted a piece of piano wire for the stock ARB, they couldn't just leave it off for homologation reasons)

On my Carledo, i've added one and left it on, the car seems a tad more predictable near the limit with it. But i've messed with nearly all the vital figures on that car, weight, C of G, ride height, spring rates, shocker spec, rear roll centre, camber, castor, tyre width, diameter and aspect ratio, bushing specs etc, my car isn't a good guide!

On the front spacers, It could be time for the club to buy a couple of metres of 5/16" tube and market them! Seems anyone buying a used bar to upgrade an earlier or low spec model needs them! Plus all the ones mislaid during restoration. These and the bonnet hinge catch plates seem to be most often lost (unobtanium) parts in a resto, with wiring loom clips a close 3rd!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:52 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 4:38 pm
Posts: 535
Location: South Benfleet, Essex
I was under the impression that the RWD Triumph 1500TCs were equipped with factory-fitted front & rear suspension anti-roll bars as standard!?! I certainly remember from long-ago breakers’ yard visits of yesteryear, that the FWD Triumph 1500s had a straight rear-suspension anti-roll bar, which lacked the necessary downward curving section to clear the propeller-shaft of my RWD Triumph Toledo.

As you discovered to your cost, buying a second-hand front anti-roll bar, without the associated mounting hardware, was a false economy! However, I get the impression that rear anti-roll bars which require only four generic bolts, nuts & washers to mount them, are also periodically listed on E-bay at prices typically ranging from £10 to £15.

In mid-August 2021, I found the following FWD Triumph 1500 and RWD Triumph Dolomite front & rear suspension anti-roll bars listed on E-bay. The two second-hand rear-suspension anti-roll bars priced at £13•99 and £15•00, would both have been significantly cheaper than the new one you bought from Rimmer Brothers.

Front-suspension anti-roll bar (ex Triumph Dolomite 1300, 1500, 1500HL, 1850, 1850HL & Sprint):

To Clear Triumph Dolomite & Sprint Anti Roll Bar No Mounting Brackets Available, Condition: Used, Price: £10.99

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174536682935 ... SwDPtfwXeR


Rear-suspension anti-roll bar (ex Triumph Dolomite 1850, 1850HL & Sprint);

Triumph Dolomite 1300/1500 Toledo Anti Roll Bar Restoration Classic Car Part, Condition: Used, Price: £13.99

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383393729879 ... SwpI5eL2yO

Dolomite Sprint 1850 Rear Anti-Roll Bar Dolomite Toledo Upgrade, Condition: Used, Price: £15.00

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265179838474 ... SwzmxgtK91


Rear-suspension anti-roll bar (ex FWD Triumph 1500!?!);

TRIUMPH DOLOMITE SPRINT REAR ANTI ROLL BAR, Condition: Used, Price: £24.99

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184798062067 ... SwhGZgiSBu

To me, this looks like a rear anti-roll bar originating from a front-wheel drive Triumph 1500, which would probably not clear the propeller-shaft on a rear-wheel drive car!


I can’t comment on what would happen with a RWD Triumph 1500TC equipped with just a rear anti-roll bar, if driven to the limits in special-stage, road-rally style, but for “normal” moderate-speed driving on the public highway, I foresee no problems with any strange / unpredictable steering or handling characteristics, based upon past experience during the latter half of 1982, with my four-door, RHD 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 “HL Special”, whose only other significant deviation from factory-standard specification at that time, was 5½ x 13 inch Cosmic alloy wheels (21 mm offset) shod with Kelly-Springfield Steelmark, steel-braced 175 SR13 (i.e. circa 175/80 SR13 ~ 175/83 SR13) radial-ply tyres and a ¾-inch higher ground clearance.

Sometime during the summer of 1982 (I didn’t record a precise date & mileage!), I initially fitted just the rear-suspension anti-roll bar that I had salvaged from a Triumph Dolomite Sprint at a breaker’s yard in Buckinghamshire; the front anti-roll being inaccessible at that time. A few months later, after the cars there had been repositioned, I was able to also salvage from the same donor Triumph Dolomite Sprint, the front-suspension anti-roll bar with all but one of the fittings (i.e. a tubular spacer; of which I was able to make a substitute). The front anti-roll bar & fittings were rather rusty and in need of some refurbishment, so it wasn’t until the winter of 1982/83 (I didn’t record a precise date & mileage!) that I fitted the refurbished front anti-roll bar.

I don’t have a precise record of how many miles I covered, between the summer of 1982 and the winter of 1982/83, driving with just the rear anti-roll bar fitted, but it’s likely to have been something in the range of 3000 to 4000 miles, on successive Friday & Sunday evening journeys, between CIT – Cranfield, on the Bedfordshire & Buckinghamshire border and my home in Canvey Island, Essex, via Ampthill, Baldock, Buntingford, Puckerage, Bishops Stortford, Hatfield Heath and Chelmsford.

The route included a long stretch of winding roads, with a series of many sharp bends (some of circa 90 degrees) at intervals of a few hundred yards, between Bishops Stortford and Chelmsford. The 80•0 mile cross-country journey, typically took 2½ hours under normal traffic conditions (32 mph average speed), 2¼ hours under light traffic conditions (35½ mph average speed) and 2¾ hours under light traffic conditions on deep snow-covered road (29 mph average speed).

When appropriate sections of the M25 motorway were completed, a journey via an alternative route of virtually the same total distance, typically took 2 hours under normal Sunday evening traffic conditions (40 mph average speed).

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » 40+ Years With A 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 “HL Special”

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29933

Retro-Fitted Triumph Dolomite Sprint, Front & Rear Suspension Anti-Roll Bars & De-Cambered the Front Wheels – Summer 1982 & Winter 1982/83

https://forum.triumphdolomite.co.uk/vie ... 98#p335498

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:19 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1549
Quote:
What Alun said ^^^^^^^

The extra holes in the trailing arm are purely a production economy measure.

I'd also question the usefulness of stiffening the trailing arm at this point as it's nowhere near where they habitually fail, which is just at the curve where the arm kicks up to the back axle fitting bush. Again, as Alun said, stiffening it here could likely increase the strain on the weakest point (which is elsewhere) and cause an even more premature failure.

I don't actually want to think about the effects on handling of your current situation with a rear ARB fitted and no front one! Having a front ARB on a Dolomite shaped car is, IMO, an absolute necessity, it gets rid of a whole heap of roly-poly-ness and turn in understeer. The effects of the rear bar are a lot more subjective, some people think it works better without one (including the works BTCC team who substituted a piece of piano wire for the stock ARB, they couldn't just leave it off for homologation reasons)

On my Carledo, i've added one and left it on, the car seems a tad more predictable near the limit with it. But i've messed with nearly all the vital figures on that car, weight, C of G, ride height, spring rates, shocker spec, rear roll centre, camber, castor, tyre width, diameter and aspect ratio, bushing specs etc, my car isn't a good guide!

On the front spacers, It could be time for the club to buy a couple of metres of 5/16" tube and market them! Seems anyone buying a used bar to upgrade an earlier or low spec model needs them! Plus all the ones mislaid during restoration. These and the bonnet hinge catch plates seem to be most often lost (unobtanium) parts in a resto, with wiring loom clips a close 3rd!

Steve
I have always been dubious about what the anti-roll bar actually does on the rear, though I do have one fitted. Being a solid rear axle both sides of the suspension are already interconnected anyway, unlike the front. Best I can figure it is just the equivalent of fitting stiffer springs.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:57 am 
Offline
TDC West Mids Area Organiser
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 13317
Location: Over here...can't you see me?
Quote:


the bonnet hinge catch plates seem to be most often lost (unobtanium) parts in a resto, with wiring loom clips a close 3rd!

Steve
I have a box full of bonnet catch plates!


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:02 am 
Offline
TDC West Mids Area Organiser
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 13317
Location: Over here...can't you see me?
Quote:


I have always been dubious about what the anti-roll bar actually does on the rear, though I do have one fitted. Being a solid rear axle both sides of the suspension are already interconnected anyway, unlike the front. Best I can figure it is just the equivalent of fitting stiffer springs.
Take it off...then you'll soon know!

Whilst the rear axle is solid, it is live and each of the trailing arms is able to pivot independently, albeit restrained somewhat by design by the radius rods. The ARB links the trailing arms together forward of the axle, so as one tries to pivot, it is also held in check by the 'weight' on the other side, reducing rear body roll.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:49 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7015
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Quote:


the bonnet hinge catch plates seem to be most often lost (unobtanium) parts in a resto, with wiring loom clips a close 3rd!

Steve
I have a box full of bonnet catch plates!
Of course you do! I have more than a handful myself, but I reckon we are in a minority of 2!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:50 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:23 pm
Posts: 253
Location: Aberdeen
Hi All

Well I finally got the steel for my spacers so today I fitted my front anti roll bar. Getting the bar clamp bolts in was a bit of a faff but it not much hassle. Not had time to test drive it yet, but I have a 25 mile drive on Sunday to a car show with a good few twisty roads so I will hopefully be able to give it a good test! :mrgreen:

** The picture of the spacer on top is incorrect, it should be in the C channel as shown :roll: **

Enjoy some picks and ignore my rusty front!




Regards

Barry


Attachments:
File comment: CORRECT FITTING
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - End line CORRECT.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - End line CORRECT.jpg [ 151.82 KiB | Viewed 417 times ]
File comment: INCORRECT FITTING
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - End line.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - End line.jpg [ 184.28 KiB | Viewed 469 times ]
File comment: bar clamp
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - Clamp.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - Clamp.jpg [ 177.47 KiB | Viewed 469 times ]
File comment: Fitted
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - Fitted.jpg
SM - 1500TC - Front roll bar - Fitted.jpg [ 175.43 KiB | Viewed 469 times ]

_________________
Aberdeen

1975 Triumph 1500 TC various shades of blue


Last edited by bazyerma on Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:57 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:23 pm
Posts: 253
Location: Aberdeen
Quote:

As you discovered to your cost, buying a second-hand front anti-roll bar, without the associated mounting hardware, was a false economy! However, I get the impression that rear anti-roll bars which require only four generic bolts, nuts & washers to mount them, are also periodically listed on E-bay at prices typically ranging from £10 to £15.

In mid-August 2021, I found the following FWD Triumph 1500 and RWD Triumph Dolomite front & rear suspension anti-roll bars listed on E-bay. The two second-hand rear-suspension anti-roll bars priced at £13•99 and £15•00, would both have been significantly cheaper than the new one you bought from Rimmer Brothers.
Hi

I didn't really feel £39 was much for a rear anti roll bar. I could have went the second had route but as much as people on here hate Rimmers with a passion ( I can understand but I have never had an issue with them) I do like to support businesses that help keep our hobbie alive.

If I really wanted to save money I wouldn't have a classic car and a retro one and a collection of un used motor bikes!

Hopefully my experiences with my new roll bars will echo yours from nineteen oat cake when it was all in black and white :lol: :lol:

Regards

Barry

_________________
Aberdeen

1975 Triumph 1500 TC various shades of blue


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:09 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 188
I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs but the spacers on antiroll bar go inbetween the channel on the tie bar thus bringing the end of the tie bar down, somebody else might be able to post a picture,


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:01 pm 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:00 pm
Posts: 275
Location: Fordingbridge Hants.
Quote:
I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs but the spacers on antiroll bar go inbetween the channel on the tie bar thus bringing the end of the tie bar down, somebody else might be able to post a picture,
There is a good illustration in the Haynes 1500TC and HL manual on page 158 - "front anti-roll bar attachments"

_________________
1972 Dolomite Auto
1977 Triumph 2500S Auto
1981 Reliant Scimitar GTC Auto


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:18 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 4:38 pm
Posts: 535
Location: South Benfleet, Essex
According to what I read several years ago, changing the torsional-stiffness of front and/or rear anti-roll bars, is one of several factors which influence the degree of under-steer or over-steer characteristics. Retro-fitting an anti-roll bar, where none was previously fitted, is effectively increasing the torsional stiffness of the non-existent anti-roll bar from ZERO.

Increasing front anti-roll bar torsional stiffness => increases under-steer / decreases over-steer

Decreasing front anti-roll bar torsional stiffness => decreases under-steer / increases over-steer

Increasing rear anti-roll bar torsional stiffness => decreases under-steer / increases over-steer

Decreasing rear anti-roll bar torsional stiffness => decreases under-steer / increases over-steer

Some other factors which are also said to influence under-steer or over-steer characteristics are as follows:

• Front & rear tyre pressures (difference between front & rear) – an important consideration with rear-engined, rear wheel drive VW Type 2 Transporters!
• Front & rear tyre section-width and aspect-ratio (difference between front & rear) – an important consideration with rear-engined, rear wheel drive Porsche 911
• Front & rear suspension spring stiffness (difference between front & rear)
• Front & rear suspension damping “stiffness” (difference between front & rear)
• Front & rear wheel toe-in and/or toe-out (difference between front & rear)
• Front & rear wheel track (difference between front & rear)
• Front & rear wheel camber (difference between front & rear)

https://www.rallylights.com/useful_info ... tuning.htm

https://www.autozine.org/technical_scho ... ling_1.htm

As you will probably have noticed, the 6 x 15 inch MGF alloy wheels (28 mm offset!?!) & 195/50 R15 tyres of the extensively-modified, Vauxhall-Carlton-engined, 1973 Triumph Toledo “Carledo” are very different from what are used on either a factory-standard 1970~76 Triumph Toledo 13/1500 or 1975 Triumph 1500TC.

Hence the chosen combination of (a) front-wheel camber, (b) front-wheel width, (c) front-tyre section-width, (d) front-tyre aspect-ratio, (e) front-tyre inflation pressure, (f) rear-wheel camber, (g) rear-wheel width, (h) rear-tyre section-width, (i) rear-tyre aspect-ratio, and (j) rear-tyre inflation pressure, together with the changed front & rear weight distribution, plus other non-standard specifications and operating conditions, will all influence the degree of over-steer or under-steer, under various situational combinations of acceleration, constant-speed, braking, straight-line motion and different bend-radii, plus longitudinal & transverse road gradient, wind-speed and wind-direction.

_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


Last edited by naskeet on Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot] and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited