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 Post subject: Timing issue, I think.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:35 am 
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Hi All,
Hope everyone is well. I think I have an issue with the timing on my 1850. The dizzy is fitted with electronic ignition system, as far as I can tell its similar to the magnetronic system. It was already fitted to the car when I purchased it. The car has never run very well. I can get it running, very rough and backfiring out the carbs, when i check the timing with a timing light the pulley mark is way before the timing marks. I cant turn the dizzy anymore clockwise (looking from top) as its at the end of the adjustment. I am wondering if the dizzy has been put in incorrectly, is that possible? I guess the rough running could also be fuel, I have been trying to balance the carbs but the timing seems a bit strange to me. Any thoughts and opinions will be greatly appreciated. I am itching to get this thing on the road.

Thanks,
Steve.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:40 am 
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Very possible to fit the dizzy incorrectly. There's only limited adjustment on an 1850. Remove the dizzy, turn it a tooth round and refit. You should be able to get the timing correct then.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:10 am 
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Thats great, Thanks for that, I will have a go tomorrow arvo and let you know how it goes.
Steve.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:15 am 
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If it's anything like the Sprint dizzy then repositioning the dizzy will probably put the adjustment at the other end of the slot. You may be able to get it nearer the correct position, if not you will need to remove the timing chain cover, loosen the chain and rotate the jackshaft a tooth or two.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:35 am 
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OK thanks Mad Mart, hope it isn't anything that involved but I will pray for the best.
Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:24 pm 
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I've worked out WHY that problem of getting one end or another, rather than the middle of the timing adjustment happens. Though the gear to the jackshaft has 12 teeth, the oil pump drive only has 6 sides, so the dizzy will only drop easily in 6 places. So the tendency is to fit it where the dizzy drops, meaning you often skip the correct tooth on the gear.

While the dizzy is out, put an 8mm socket securely on an extension, drop it down the hole and turn the oil pump drive about 30 degrees either way, then try again. Works for me!

However, the OP's post seems to suggest, that he can't get the right amount of advance, even at the end of adjustment. So if he goes the usual 2 teeth to line up with the oil pump as is, he'll probably hit middle with the dizzy timing. Without moving the pump drive.

Steve

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:47 pm 
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Hi guys, thanks for all the replies. i gave it a go, turning the dizzy but it wouldnt start at all. I have put it back to what it was before and I am getting a mate who is a mechanic to come and have a look. I have probably done something wrong so I am sure he will let me know. I will report back if we find the problem.
Thanks again
Steve


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:09 am 
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Quote:
I've worked out WHY that problem of getting one end or another, rather than the middle of the timing adjustment happens. Though the gear to the jackshaft has 12 teeth, the oil pump drive only has 6 sides, so the dizzy will only drop easily in 6 places. So the tendency is to fit it where the dizzy drops, meaning you often skip the correct tooth on the gear.
I don't understand how that works Steve. The 12 teeth of the dizzy gear are directly meshed to the Jackshaft but the oil pump drive, although only having 6 sides, is free to rotate 360º, so it's position is irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:30 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
I've worked out WHY that problem of getting one end or another, rather than the middle of the timing adjustment happens. Though the gear to the jackshaft has 12 teeth, the oil pump drive only has 6 sides, so the dizzy will only drop easily in 6 places. So the tendency is to fit it where the dizzy drops, meaning you often skip the correct tooth on the gear.
I don't understand how that works Steve. The 12 teeth of the dizzy gear are directly meshed to the Jackshaft but the oil pump drive, although only having 6 sides, is free to rotate 360º, so it's position is irrelevant.
Yes it's free to move, but the drive socket in the bottom of the dizzy is only a hexagon like the drive rod. So if you drop it VERTICALLY (and this is the key point) onto the drive rod 30 degrees out of synch, as is possible exactly as often as not, it will baulk! It can't turn to engage as the gear teeth have already partially engaged with the jack shaft and there's not enough wriggle room in that engagement to allow the drive rod to turn the 30 degrees and no rotational force at all acting on the drive rod to make it want to line up.

So most people pull the dizzy out again and try for a point where the dizzy WILL drop in easily and hence go 30 degrees the OTHER way from correct and miss the sweet spot in the centre. I've done it myself, many times, before I worked out WHY I couldn't get it right. Now, it's easy! TBH, until I saw it in these pages, it never occurred to me to to turn the jackshaft, far too much like hard work!

Maybe if you are doing it with a warm engine, or one that has no oil in the pump for whatever reason, the resistance put up by the oil in the pump might be easier to overcome and the drive rod easier to slip round. But most people, you and I included, are more likely to pull the dizzy just to wind oil pressure up manually on a cold motor before starting it for the first time or after a long layup. Thus increasing the resistance in the oil and making your own life harder! Of course, you STILL only have a 50% probability of getting it wrong! I guess it's just a case of "do you feel lucky?"

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
I've worked out WHY that problem of getting one end or another, rather than the middle of the timing adjustment happens. Though the gear to the jackshaft has 12 teeth, the oil pump drive only has 6 sides, so the dizzy will only drop easily in 6 places. So the tendency is to fit it where the dizzy drops, meaning you often skip the correct tooth on the gear.

While the dizzy is out, put an 8mm socket securely on an extension, drop it down the hole and turn the oil pump drive about 30 degrees either way, then try again. Works for me!

Steve
Clever idea Steve, I never thought of that, so I will remember it next time I am trying to get the pesky distributor timed up!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:48 am 
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Thanks for the explanation Steve. When I do valve timing I always put the dizzy in and make sure it is in the correct position whilst installing the timing chain. It makes it easy to get it in the correct position before you bolt the timing cover on.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:14 pm 
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Hi Guys, thanks for all the replies. it turns out the main problem was me. I'm not sure what I did originaly but I went back to the start and changed the spark plugs then checked the timing, I could get it correct. the car now idles ok but when I drive it there isnt a lot of power and a bit of a dead spot when accelerating. Could be fuel, not sure yet. I will try and get some time to look at it again. Slowly getting better.
Thanks again.

Steve.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:07 am 
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Quote:
Hi Guys, thanks for all the replies. it turns out the main problem was me. I'm not sure what I did originaly but I went back to the start and changed the spark plugs then checked the timing, I could get it correct. the car now idles ok but when I drive it there isnt a lot of power and a bit of a dead spot when accelerating. Could be fuel, not sure yet. I will try and get some time to look at it again. Slowly getting better.
Thanks again.

Steve.
The first thing to do is check the obvious. Is the advance working on the dizzy? Have you got oil in the dashpots?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:53 pm 
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Quote:
Hi Guys, thanks for all the replies. it turns out the main problem was me. I'm not sure what I did originaly but I went back to the start and changed the spark plugs then checked the timing, I could get it correct. the car now idles ok but when I drive it there isnt a lot of power and a bit of a dead spot when accelerating. Could be fuel, not sure yet. I will try and get some time to look at it again. Slowly getting better.
Thanks again.

Steve.
Set the timing by driving th ecar. Keep advancing until you get pinking under load, back off a smidge and that should be as good as you will get it. But well worth checking the dizzy advance, timing light, assistant and the curve (which is on the forum somewhere, do a search)

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