The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

I was driving along in the summer sun this afternoon, windows down, and listening to my lovely dolomite, slowly watching the engine warm up and adjusting the choke, which got me thinking.

Why did manual chokes persist so long?

I mean, the temperature gauge reckons it knows the coolant temperature. Is it that difficult to achieve, an automatic choke? Then again, why were they replaced with automatic ones? I quite enjoy them. Manual window wipers survived, manual lights (until recently).

I'm not a fan of these automatic things, automatic lights, tesla cars, climate control. Maybe its personal preference, but I enjoy the manual challenge - making decisions myself, driving a manual car, writing cards not emails, because it carries more personality and is more interesting. Thats why lots of shows, events, and gatherings involve vintage things I think - they are more personal.

I think there are many modern things to be enjoyed too, but maybe I'm daft to think not all changes are for the best. But that may be personal preference at most.

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HQentity (Kyle)

1975 TRIUMPH DOLOMITE 1850 in Honeysuckle (Nina) 2015-2020


"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the Triumph." - Thomas Paine

Hi Kyle, An interesting question !

To answer your question, being in the consumer electronics industry where every penny or cent counts, then the Motor Industry was even more penny pinching ( allegedly ).

So which is cheaper; the user pulling and pushing a choke cable or automating the whole process ?

My first experience of an "automatic choke" was on an early rental Maestro / Montego. Jolly good car; easy starter; you could hear the stepper motor operating the automatic choke every morning. And it ran well provided the motor responded to the temperature sensor. If it didn't then you had a 10mpg car that ran really rough and smelled like a petrol pump filler.

It was the same with electronic ignition systems. The manufacturers wanted to ensure that cars would get through the initial warranty period. And again ; which was cheaper ? Points and a capacitor or a box of electronics ?

These days, electronics is more reliable, but more importantly customer expectations are higher at the same price point.

The down side is the £60 put-the-laptop-on the car-to find-the fault.

Tony.

I echo Tony's thoughts on this one.

I remember automatic chokes being introduced in the 1980s and some of them were so bad that they'd been converted to manual choke. I remember a former work colleague's Ford Sierra that had one such conversion with the choke control coming out of one of the dashboard vents!

Penny pinching was going on back in the 70s. I've commented many times that the BL bean counters were doing it back then. This of course encompassed "our" cars while they were still in production.

Electronic ignition appeared in the 1980s which did improve reliability. The coming of stricter emissions laws and the compulsory introduction of catalytic converters put an end to carbs.

The Citroen is the first car I've owned that has automatic headlights and it works so I leave the headlight switch in the "auto" position. It is also the first one I've had with automatic wipers which I'm not so keen on. The BMW has manual windows on the rear doors (it is a 4-door saloon). In the 1980s and maybe before it was only the luxury and top-of-the-range cars that had electric windows. Acclaim No. 3 (a 1983 CD Triomatic) had electric windows front and back. Come the 21st century and most cars had front electric windows as standard. The BMW has a manual gearbox and it is nice to keep my hand in with cog-swapping and is a change from the Citroen's EGS transmission which is an automated manual 6-speed gearbox. The Corsa has a manual gearbox and electric windows (it is a 3-door hatchback).

The fees charged for hooking up a laptop to a modern car can be eye-watering. You could buy a code reader or get the diagnostic software for your own laptop. I've done this for the Citroen and the Vauxhalls that have passed through my hands.

In summary, it is nice to do things manually from time to time but I don't think I would want to on a modern daily driver. Modern cars can still be DIY-able and you can usually find out what you need to know on forums (like this one) or there is sometimes a video on YouTube which can be a big help. This is one reason I make YouTube videos so I can give a bit back and sometimes I'm the first one to make a video of the repair job I'm doing.

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Toledo Man

West Yorkshire Area Organiser & forum moderator
Meetings take place on the first Wednesday of the month at 8.00pm at The Old Brickworks, Wakefield Road, Drighlington, Bradford, BD11 1EA

1972 Dolomite 1850 auto (NYE 751L - Now for sale)
2003 Volvo XC90 D5 SE (PX53 OVZ - The daily driver)
2009 Mercedes-Benz W204 C200 CDI Sport (BJ58 NCV - The 2nd car)
1991 Toyota Celica GT (J481 ONB - another project car)
Former stable of SAY 414M (1974 Toledo), GRH 244D (1966 1300fwd), CDB 324L (1973 1500fwd), GGN 573J (1971 1500fwd), DCP 625S (1977 Dolomite 1300) & LCG 367N (1975 Dolomite Sprint) plus 5 Acclaims and that's just the Triumphs!

Check my blog at http://triumphtoledo.blogspot.com
My YouTube Channel with a bit of Dolomite content.

"There is only one way to avoid criticsm: Do nothing, say nothing and BE nothing." Aristotle

Oh yes. My mother-in-law bought a Mk2 Golf with a Pierburg carb and automatic choke. Dreadful thing. Started OK from stone cold, but when hot - you were in the hands of the mechanism and often, very often it flooded the plugs. She followed this up with a Peugeot 205 again with auto choke. Same problems. In my opinion if you have a carb you need a manual choke, but to be fair most drivers today under the age of 40 would have little idea of how to use it, and even back in the day, many drivers used them wrongly.

My modern VW has automatic lights and wipers, cruise control, light steering, self-parking, lane change indicators, hill assist starting and a self-dipping mirror. I like them all and they make the car very easy to live with, whereas driving an older car makes you think more about what you are doing - probably a good thing. The one thing I don't like is the start-stop facility, but fortunately I can turn it off.

Here's a thought. Way back in the late sixties (I think) the well known motoring writer LJK Setright said why are we still having to change gear by hand when auto transmissions are now so good. He does have a point, particularly today when autos are really good, and if I lived in a city I would seriously consider an auto. I was on a business trip to the USA years ago and this lady at the hotel was telling me how she was going to visit the UK and hire a car so she could get up to Scotland. I reminded her that unless she asked for an auto, she would be hiring a car with a "stick shift". She was horrified and thanked me for the information.

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Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)

Well there you have it, I learnt something new today! So manual chokes generally persisted as long as they did, because it was expensive to produce good ones; the ones that were around were useless, so people opted for the manual choke because they worked. Makes sense to me!

The idea of self parking, lane change indicators and especially hill assist starting sounds horrendous to me, and I'm not just saying that for attention haha! I just want to do it all myself? I don't get any great buzz from having something automate a process for me, whereas if I pull off a good hill start or tight parallel park, I feel great!

Are manual chokes still a thing? Or manual overdrive gearboxes? What about carbs?

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HQentity (Kyle)

1975 TRIUMPH DOLOMITE 1850 in Honeysuckle (Nina) 2015-2020


"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the Triumph." - Thomas Paine

You won't find any new cars now, or for the last ten years (probably longer), with a carburettor, so no choke, manual or automatic. The ever tighter emissions regulations have forced all manufacturers to use computer controlled fuel injection, and very good it is too as long as everything works. The guy over the road from me has just bought a new CCM trials bike, a 600cc single, and yes you've guessed it, it has fuel injection.

As for overdrive, it's unnecessary complication when a five or six speed gearbox is much more robust and everyone is now used to them. O/D is much more likely to give bother than a modern gearbox. I suspect that car makers in the fifties started using overdrive because it meant they didn't have to redesign a gearbox but could strap the O/D on the back of the existing unit. It then became a must-have accessory for cars that were sold as being just a bit better than the run of the mill stuff.

On my modern VW I could do without the self-parking, but the hill-assist is simply brilliant.

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Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)

The Auto choke when it first came out was more of a gimmick than a useful addition and manufacturers thought I would save fuel , the very basic ones consisted of a coiled spring in which was linked in with the coolant system via a hose, as the coolant got warmer the spring contracted (or other way around) which adjusted the fuel mixture. as said this was an unreliable system as it relied more on the coolant temp rather than the engine and fuel temp.a lot of the modern gadgets, lane change assist for one is making drivers lazy and taking the driving element out of it, for me even driving a truck all day I like to actual drive it rather than gadgets telling me what to do.
Hill assist... in an Auto, seriously, if you can't control an auto on a hill maybe you should give up driving.
Lane departure... Fecking concentrate on what you are driving.
Active distances thing... see above
Auto headlights, if its dark switch them on

One thing I do like in my car is the duel zone climate control and heated seats which allows me to be perfectly comfy without the passenger moaning they are too cold or too warm.

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Some people are like Slinky's, they serve no real purpose in life but bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

Just to clarify after Trustno1's post, my modern VW is NOT an auto and I would agree that in an auto it isn't necessary. But it is really great in some situations in a manual, for example a busy T-junction near here where you are on an upward slope. You need to be quick out of the junction. Hill assist means you can hold the car on the footbrake and get away quickly without fear of trickling backwards as you engage the clutch. When I drive my MGB or my Dolly or my Z3 it is one thing I miss. It's not necessary but it's convenient and works really well. What's not to like? You don't need self-cancelling indicators, but it's convenient and works well. Same argument.

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Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)

The first car I had with an auto choke was company Ford Cortina in 1980. It was rubbish and never worked. Eventually under warrantee a manual conversion was fitted. This car also had a terrible habit of running on when the engine was switched off. Another thing they did was to weaken off the mixture to improve emissions etc and this resulted in this happening. I could park this car up, go into a clients and come out and it was still running on.

Took it in to fix it many times but with no success. The last time it wouldn't stop running so they fitted a valve into the inlet manifold that opened when the ignition was turned off to flood it with air so stopping the engine. This car had loads of issues and when the car was 10 months old it was taken back by Ford, who said they were going to crush it, and replaced with another Cortina, this one worked ok until it was 13 months old then the auto choke packed in.

I like most of the gadgets on most of the new cars, but that's speaking as a company car driver - I'd NEVER spend that money on a car of my own, especially with all those things to go wrong. Some of the gadgets take getting used to, and some of them could be improved. Heated seats, heated front screen, climate control left, right and rear, more power than is necessary but good fun, selective suspension, quietness.....The most dangerous thing is adaptive cruise control on the A9 with the stupid and ludicrous 50mph speed limit for HGVs on non-dual sections. In other words, when it's busy, for everyone. Set the cruise control to 65mph, the car does everything except steer, and then fall asleep..........several times.........luckily Waze, stall speed and a phone call woke me up each time. I've now got a 10 year old Combo van and don't use the company car for private mileage, problem solved.

I'm more confident of completing a long journey in my 1850 than I am of doing so in my van - but would I want to? The noise on a long journey...

I agree - classics are generally much noisier to ride in than moderns, especially at motorway speeds. And yet my wife and I drove our MGB GTV8 all the way from Scotland to visit friends near Lyon and after a while we found we didn't notice the noise. Of course you can't hear the radio but we were quite comfortable in the car apart from the heat (it was 36C in the shade). We covered 2600 miles in three weeks, saw many lovely places and the car didn't miss a beat despite the temperatures.

This July I intend to take my 1850 to the Silverstone Classic. That's only about 380 miles each way, so just a short trip really.

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Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)

Now turn it round the other way! 40 years BEFORE "our" cars were made, MANUAL ignition advance and retard was still common, synchromesh was either not there or unreliable, brakes were operated by rods or cables on only 2 wheels and didn't work well OR pull up straight unless constantly fettled, 2-3" of play in steering was not unreasonable and tyres were only 2-3" wide! Heater? WHAT HEATER? You were lucky to get a roof! And starting handles only disappeared from cars in the 60s!

We find the 70s cars primitive (personally I like them that way) but really, they're quite sophisticated compared to 30s cars! Who wants to go back to the REAL "Good old days"? Answers on a postcard please!

Steve

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'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.

I'll go back to the Good old days at least with an older car you can repair it yourself - the only issue is trying to obtain parts.

As for modern car I now have a 2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia Veloce 2.0 turbo 280 BHP 8 speed auto - wonderful car make me smile every time I drive it and it virtually does everything of me. I go to it, it unlocks itself, foot on the brake press the starter button then the seat moves foward, up, the seat back adjusts and the mirror fold out. I pull the up shift paddle (+) engages 1st gear as I pull away the handbrake releases itself. In an emergency the car will brake for me, sensor in the front bumper monitors the road ahead and the computor will apply more braking if it does not think I have not applied enough - the only issue is that if any thing goes wrong I'm back to the dealer.

Dont get with the sprint, the sprints a proper drivers car.

Paul

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Of course it will never go wrong, Alfas are renowned for never ever going wrong.

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Vindicator Sprint, Honda Fireblade RRX 919cc, re-powered by AB Performance. Quick.

Naturally, some modern gadgets/systems genuinely assist, whilst others are just annoying/de-skilling. The worst modern gadget in some modern cars absolutely has to be the electronic handbrake. A brilliant way of reducing the options you have for dealing with difficult conditions/circumstances, as it's either on or off, with no mid-points.
Regards,
Richard