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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:40 am 
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Hi All

What size steering wheel do people think works best in a 1500 Toledo?

I'm thinking of getting a 14" dished wheel from Rimmers but wonder if it is going to make the steering to heavy around town (with 175 tyres)

I see from the Ken Woods in car rally videos on You tube - looks like he uses a 14in wheel in his car?

I might try the standard steering wheel out of my stag first and see how that feels....

cheers

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 Post subject: That is ............
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:08 am 
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A good question!

I think it is very subjective and depends on each individual's preference.


There are two steering rack ratios (3.75 turns and 3.25 turns lock to lock).
I am thinking you have the higher ratio rack?
Trying the alternative s/wheel is what I would do.


For my Sprint, which will have 185 tyres and a higher ratio s/rack, I am going to try
a 13" steering wheel. Heavy steering doesn't bother me any.




Ian.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:46 pm 
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My 1974 4-door Triumph Toledo 1300 "HL Special" has been equipped with two different steering wheels during its lifetime.

Originally, it had the standard factory-fitted Toledo two-spoke (black) unpadded steering wheel of circa 16 inches diameter with rigid-black-plastic central trim pad .

In 1982, for reasons originally associated with having a steering-column-mounted windscreen wiper & washer stalk-switch, instead of a dashboard-mounted windscreen wiper & washer rotary-switch, I substituted a Triumph Dolomite 1500/1850HL adjustable steering column, complete with three-spoke (satin-finish chromium plated) leather-covered, padded steering wheel of circa 14½ inches diameter with circular black-foam central trim pad (embossed with the word “TRIUMPH” rather than “DOLOMITE”).

For both comfort and convenience, I prefer the Dolomite HL 14½ inches diameter, padded steering wheel. However, I have found the satin-finish chromium plated spokes to be a source of uncomfortable and debilitating glare, arising from reflected sunlight at certain incident angles. Before I complete renovation work on my car, I either need to paint the spokes with satin-black or matt-black paint, or find a substitute steering wheel with black spokes.

Having a smaller-diameter steering wheel, makes it easier and more convenient to operate the two steering-column-mounted, combination stalk-switches [for (a) headlamp dip & flash, direction indicators and horn, and (b) windscreen washers & wipers and single flick-wipe] with one’s finger tips, whilst still holding the steering-wheel rim.

The leather-covered padded steering-wheel rim, is easier and more comfortable to hold, during either hot or cold weather. The rim became neither too hot nor too cold to hold. In hot weather, my sweaty hands can better grip the leather steering-wheel glove and in winter, my hands don’t get unbearably cold as they did when gripping the Toledo’s original uninsulated-steel steering-wheel rim.

Being of smaller diameter, the steering wheel is more comfortable for me to hold and turn when steering; possibly because I am of relatively slight physical build (i.e. not broad across the shoulders) and there is probably an optimal separation between one’s hands for comfort, dependent upon the separation between the one’s shoulder joints (i.e. ball & socket joints at the heads of the humorous bones).

Broad-shouldered people, might find the 16 inch diameter steering wheel to be more comfortable to hold, but will find the stalk-switches less easy and convenient to operate.

I have used the Dolomite HL 14½ inch diameter steering wheel on my Toledo, in conjunction with the following wheel & tyre combinations:

175 SR13 (i.e. 175/80 SR13) tyres on 5½ x 13 inch Cosmic aluminium-alloy wheels (21 mm offset)

185/70 SR13 tyres on 5½ x 13 inch Cosmic aluminium-alloy wheels (21 mm offset)

185/70 SR13 tyres on 5½J x 13 inch Dolomite Sprint GKN aluminium-alloy wheels (35 mm offset)

For none of these combinations of wheel & tyre, was the steering excessively heavy for urban driving or parking in tight spaces; even for a 9½ stone (i.e. 60 kg) weakling like me!

In the future, in an attempt to future-proof my Triumph Toledo regarding availability and economical cost of replacement tyres, I shall be using one or other of the following wheel & tyre combinations:

185/65 R15 tyres on 5½J x 15 inch MG 2000 Maestro cross-lattice style aluminium-alloy wheels (31 mm offset)

185/60 R15 tyres on 5½J x 15 inch MG 2000 Maestro cross-lattice style aluminium-alloy wheels (31 mm offset)

185/55 R15 tyres on 5½J x 15 inch MG 2000 Maestro cross-lattice style aluminium-alloy wheels (31 mm offset)

I shall probably be using my existing Dolomite HL 14½ inch diameter steering wheel on my Toledo, to steer one or other of the aforementioned wheel & tyre combinations, with which I don’t anticipate any difficulty.

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 Post subject: Re: That is ............
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:41 pm 
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Quote:

There are two steering rack ratios (3.75 turns and 3.25 turns lock to lock).
I am thinking you have the higher ratio rack?

Trying the alternative s/wheel is what I would do.

Ian.
More than 20 years ago, I replaced the original steering rack on my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, with what appeared to be a relatively new or reconditioned one that I salvaged from a Triumph Dolomite 13/1500 at one of my local car breakers' yards, so I am not sure what the rack ratio is, but I could measure how many turns are required lock-to-lock.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:27 pm 
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I'm using a stock 14.5" Dolomite wheel on the Carledo with a standard rack AND 195/50/15 tyres! (also has solid rack mounts) Sure it's a little heavy when stationary, but even a couple of MPH is enough to make it fine and on the road the steering is light, precise and positive.

A word on "quick racks" I thought the choices were "standard", 3.25 turns lock to lock and "quick" 2.75 turns. To this end I today checked the quick rack I have squirelled away for use on the Carledo (when I get round to it) and it is indeed 2.75 turns. So either I have a unique rack, or the 3.75/3.25 figure is wrong. The 2.75 turn rack came fitted to my Sprint auto, what use THAT car had for a quick rack is beyond me! I was going to keep it on the Sprint and marry it to an EPS system, but now that plan has fallen out of bed (I need the 2 points for standard steering to meet the "8 point rule" ) so it might as well go on the more track oriented car!

I have a rather nice 13.5" Momo wheel to go on the Sprint, but since i've not yet driven the car with this wheel fitted, i'm reserving judgement on how well it works!

Another factor is that Dolomites vary wildly from car to car in how heavy the steering is to operate! I have experienced everthing from nervously twitchy and far too light on a stock Toledo (mostly down to excessive toe in and knackered inner TCA bushes) to a certain well known 1500SE where the steering was excessively heavy and wooden and also was heavier turning right than left AND had considerable play in it too! Faults here were, knackered track rod ends, a worn and graunchy rack, ruined lower coupling bushes, a partially seized upper column UJ, and a problem with the upper column itself, which I couldn't identify clearly, but even disconnected from the rest of the car, it would spin freely to the left, but would stop dead as soon as you physically stopped turning it to the right and seemed to get tighter the more you turned, like winding up a clock spring. I also changed out the lower balljoints, that was for wear, not seizure, but that makes it a clean sweep, I had to renew EVERYTHING and now the steering is as it should be! The moral being, before you say it's folly to fit a small (or smallER) wheel, be certain your steering is, in fact, working properly!

There is also the thorny old problem of tyre pressures, but that's one can of worms i'm not going to open here!

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:31 pm 
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According to the official BLMC Toledo & Dolomite manuals and Toledo handbook, early models had the same 3 turns lock to lock, but for later models of the Toledo 13/1500 had either 3¼ or 3•25 turns lock to lock or 3½ or 3•5 turns (three and one half turns) lock to lock, whilst the Dolomite 1850 had 3¾ or 3•75 turns lock to lock.

It appears that the Dolomite’s turning circle between kerbs is 12 inches larger than that of the Toledo, but why that might be I’m not sure!?! Both the Toledo and the Dolomite appear to have identical or virtually identical values of wheelbase, front-track & rear-track at 2454 mm, 1352½ ± ½ mm & 1268½ ± 1½ mm respectively.


According to the information on Page 04-2, Section 04 - General Specification Data, of the official BLMC Triumph Toledo 13/1500 Repair Operation Manual (Publication Part No. 545168/2E), the Triumph Toledo was equipped with a 16 inch (407 mm) diameter steering wheel with padded spokes and centre boss, and had two steering rack options as follows; which might differ from what was available for the Triumph 1500, 1500TC and various Dolomite models:

Early Models – 3 turns lock to lock

Later Models – 3¼ turns (three and one quarter turns) lock to lock

It further states that the turning circle between kerbs is 29 feet 9 inches (9•1 metres)


According to the information on Page 61, Section 15 – General Specifications, of the official BLMC Triumph Toledo 1300 Handbook, 4th Edition (Publication Part No. 5451116 | ), the Triumph Toledo 1300 was equipped with a 16 inch (407 mm) diameter steering with padded spokes and centre boss, and steering-rack of 3½ or 3•5 turns (three and one half turns) lock to lock.


According to the information on Page 04-2, Section 04 - General Specification Data, of the official BLMC Triumph Dolomite 1850 Repair Operation Manual, Second Edition, 1973 (Publication Part No. 545206), the Triumph Dolomite was equipped with a 16 inch (407 mm) diameter steering wheel for early-models and a 14•5 inch (368 mm) diameter steering wheel for early-models. There were two steering rack options as follows:

Early Models – 3 turns lock to lock

Later Models – 3¾ turns (three and three quarter turns) lock to lock

It further states that the turning circle between kerbs is 30 feet 9 inches (9•4 metres)

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Last edited by naskeet on Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That is ............
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:10 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:

There are two steering rack ratios (3.75 turns and 3.25 turns lock to lock).
I am thinking you have the higher ratio rack?

Trying the alternative s/wheel is what I would do.

Ian.
More than 20 years ago, I replaced the original steering rack on my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300, with what appeared to be a relatively new or reconditioned one that I salvaged from a Triumph Dolomite 13/1500 at one of my local car breakers' yards, so I am not sure what the rack ratio is, but I could measure how many turns are required lock-to-lock.
My car is presently supported on four axle stands, with all four wheels removed. Turning my steering wheel from lock to lock, I observe something very close to 3-2/3 or 3•66 turns (almost exactly 2/3 of the way between 3½ or 3•5 and 3¾ or 3•75 turns) as seen by placing my finger firmly against my thigh and opposite one of the three steering-wheel spokes, at maximum lock and then turning the steering wheel to reach the maximum opposite lock.

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:28 pm 
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Quote:

. . . Another factor is that Dolomites vary wildly from car to car in how heavy the steering is to operate! I have experienced everything from nervously twitchy and far too light on a stock Toledo (mostly down to excessive toe in and knackered inner TCA bushes) to a certain well known 1500SE where the steering was excessively heavy and wooden and also was heavier turning right than left AND had considerable play in it too! . . .

. . . There is also the thorny old problem of tyre pressures, but that's one can of worms i'm not going to open here!

Steve
I’m not sure what the abbreviation TCA stands for; but I suspect it might be something like track control arm, which is pure conjecture on my part, because I don’t recall a component by that name on a Toledo or Dolomite!?!

Yet another factor to consider that will influence the “heaviness” of the steering, is whether the steering offset (aka tyre scrub radius) has been changed, as a consequence of using a tyre of different external radius (and diameter & circumference by direct inference) and/or wheel offset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:28 pm 
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According my own data analysis i can conclude the turning circle is totally dependent of road conditions and what type of engine is fitted.

Jeroen

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 Post subject: Aye...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:01 pm 
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According to the official BLMC Toledo & Dolomite manuals and Toledo handbook,...............
The thing is Nigel, there is was only ever two steering rack pinion ratios.
Toledo, 1500TC and all Dolomite racks are exactly the same, as are the other components.




Ian.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Quote:

I’m not sure what the abbreviation TCA stands for; but I suspect it might be something like track control arm, which is pure conjecture on my part, because I don’t recall a component by that name on a Toledo or Dolomite!?!
TCA is indeed "track control arm" My Toledo works manual describes it as a "lower wishbone" which it patently ISN'T, since it is just a straight (ish) bar, it only BECOMES a wishbone when joined to the separate "radius rod".

As bars like this are always described on other makes and models as track control arms (which DOES define it's function) I shall continue to describe the ones fitted to Dolomites and Toledos as such and blow what the manual says!

Steve

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2 door '73 Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine OWF 797M (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine EGP 247T (The Dolomega)
'91 Cavalier 2ltr 8v auto
'95 Cavalier 2ltr 16v auto
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:49 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:

I’m not sure what the abbreviation TCA stands for; but I suspect it might be something like track control arm, which is pure conjecture on my part, because I don’t recall a component by that name on a Toledo or Dolomite!?!
TCA is indeed "track control arm" My Toledo works manual describes it as a "lower wishbone" which it patently ISN'T, since it is just a straight (ish) bar, it only BECOMES a wishbone when joined to the separate "radius rod".

As bars like this are always described on other makes and models as track control arms (which DOES define it's function) I shall continue to describe the ones fitted to Dolomites and Toledos as such and blow what the manual says!

Steve
The only vehicle models on which I have undertaken more than very basic maintenance, are a 1973 VW 1600 Type 2, a 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 and a 1986 Ford Sierra XR4x4, so my knowledge about the names of things is limited to how they are described in the workshop manual.

That's okay so long as your intended audience actually know what you're talking or writing about. As both a long-term student and tutor, at levels ranging from primary school to postgraduate, this is something of which I am only too aware! :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:41 pm 
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According to the official BLMC Toledo & Dolomite manuals and Toledo handbook,...............
The thing is Nigel, there is was only ever two steering rack pinion ratios.
Toledo, 1500TC and all Dolomite racks are exactly the same, as are the other components.

Ian.
I cannot offer any useful testimony, about how many combinations of steering-rack tooth-pitches or number of pinion-teeth, were used by BLMC-Triumph for the Triumph 1300, 1500, 1500TC, Toledo 13/1500 or Dolomite 1300/1500/1850/Sprint. I can only reiterate, that three official BLMC-Triumph documents in my possession, collectively refer to FOUR different steering-rack ratios of 3, 3¼, 3½ & 3¾ (i.e. 3•00, 3•25, 3•50 & 3•75) turns from lock to lock, for the Triumph Toledo & Dolomite.
Quote:
My car is presently supported on four axle stands, with all four wheels removed. Turning my steering wheel from lock to lock, I observe something very close to 3-2/3 or 3•66 turns (almost exactly 2/3 of the way between 3½ and 3¾ turns) as seen by placing my finger firmly against my thigh and opposite one of the three steering-wheel spokes, at maximum lock and then turning the steering wheel to reach the maximum opposite lock.
When I further examined my car, I noticed that when on full left-hand lock, the nearside, outboard track-rod-end ball-joint is in intimate contact with the nearside “lower-wishbone” (or “track control arm”, according to “Carledo”), but on full right-hand lock, there is a gap of about ¼-inch between the offside, outboard track-rod-end ball-joint and the offside “lower-wishbone”.

This suggests to me that the steering-rack might not be properly centred and that effectively lengthening of the nearside track-rod in combination with shortening the offside track-rod would achieve this, whilst retaining correct toe-in, and might even increase the effective steering-rack ratio from 3•66 to 3•75 turns lock-to-lock. However, the over-riding consideration is to have the steering-wheel spokes horizontal, when the road-wheels are in the straight ahead position.

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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:44 pm 
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From my own perspective, it is probably better to have a steering-rack ratio of 3•75 turns rather than 3•25 turns lock-to-lock. A greater number of turns at the steering wheel for a given angular deflection of wheel-hubs’ steering swivels, enables more precise steering.

If using the correct steering technique of using one hand to feed the steering wheel through the other stationary hand, as illustrated in various books about driving technique (including the police driving manual “Roadcraft”, upon which the IAM course was based), one can very quickly and precisely steer from lock to lock, without any danger of crossing over one’s arms which would seriously compromise one’s control of the vehicle. At no time should either hand cross over the vertical centre line!

Board index » The Triumph Dolomite Club » Dolomite-related [Start here!] » 40+ Years With A 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 “HL Special”

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29933

Improving Driving Skills & Skid-Control Training – Late 1970s

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29933#p294600

The following illustrated reference describes the “correct way” to use the hands on the steering wheel, which I have found to give good, precise control and facilitate rapid change in steering angle:

Steering wheel, The hand controls, Chapter 2 – Introduction to the controls of a motor car, Driving, Pages 9~11, The Department of the Environment Manual, HMSO, 2nd Edition 1972, 3rd Impression 1974, ISBN 0-11-550258-0*

« Steering wheel – This should be held lightly but firmly, with your hand at or between the ten-to-two or quarter-to-three positions. Always use both hands for the steering, except when you need one hand for another driving job. Never have both hands off the steering wheel at the same time. You will find that when the car is on the move it takes very little effort to turn the wheel. There is no need to grip it tightly. »

« The angle through which the front wheels can be turned is known as the ‘lock’. The sharper the turn the more you will need to turn the steering wheel. When you turn it left or right as far as it will go you will be applying full left lock or full right lock. »

« The next rule to remember is not to cross your hands on the wheel when you are turning it. If you do you will lose a lot of control over the steering which can be dangerous. The correct way to steer round a corner is to feed the rim of the steering wheel through your hands with a pull-push movement. »

« If you are turning left, the left hand should be moved to a higher position (but not past twelve o’clock) and the wheel pulled downwards, while the right hand is slid down the wheel. You can then push up with the right hand while the left hand, in turn, is slid up the wheel (see Fig. 1). If you are turning right the movements are reversed. »

« Where less steering lock is needed, hand movements may be shorter. For some changes in direction it may be enough to pull the wheel downwards and allow the rim to slide through the other hand. »

« As the turn is completed you must straighten up. To do this, the steering wheel must be fed back through your hands in the opposite direction. We say ‘fed back’ because you must not let the wheel spin back on its own – there will be a tendency for it to do this. So keep control by feeding the wheel back. »


I trust you all follow this procedure as taught to you by your professional driving instructors!?!

This is the procedure I have always followed when driving any vehicle (car, van, pickup or light-goods lorry), including the 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 and 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 Kombi based campervan, neither of which have power-assisted steering.

_________________
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Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering, for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=308177758

Upgraded 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 (Toledo / Dolomite HL / Sprint hybrid)

Onetime member + magazine editor & technical editor of Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club


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