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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:04 am 
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The government proposes to introduce ethanol 10 petrol (10% ethanol content) in the near future to reduce the country’s emissions.

As I understand it this fuel mixture is a more aggressive fuel. How will it effect seals and pipes in fuel systems, or this a back door method of going after a minority, the classic car movement who, contribute little in terms of overall percentage of emissions, as they have in banning coal? :evil:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:06 pm 
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Hi Steve

If you read the post in the members section regarding this and information already posted in internet news feeds, the Government has stated it intends to keep E5 available for vehicles that are not suitable to use E10 and classics etc. They are being pressured to ensure there is no time limit to its availability, that prices will not make it too expensive to buy and kept readily available in the current round of discussions.

I think the classic industry is safe for a while until all fossil fuel becomes impossible to get.

Bob


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:34 pm 
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E10 and "worse" has been sold elsewhere for years, and old cars are still working.
Hoses should have been replaced by now. And I am sure ethanol resistant stuff is available to convert Stromberg's etc so don't worry. Just keep using the car while we still can. (15 years or so? Difficult to tell, and my crystal ball needs new batteries)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:09 pm 
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I'm a cynical old sod, my 'daily driver' for decades since I passed my test has been what have become classics (always Triumphs).

We we're promised the availability of 4* for our cars in perpetuity (lead, valves etc.). Great during the fuel crisis in the 90's, I could fill up on four star easily, modern cars, no chance, empty forecourts and I drove on and filled up! Gone for years, false promises?

Sorry, don't trust politicians of any colour, or what they promise, and, potentially miles to fill up, on a product that 'goes off' if stored, therefore, finding a garage prepared to store, and have the turnover is something else. :evil:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:16 pm 
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Quote:
I'm a cynical old sod, my 'daily driver' for decades since I passed my test has been what have become classics (always Triumphs).

We we're promised the availability of 4* for our cars in perpetuity (lead, valves etc.). Great during the fuel crisis in the 90's, I could fill up on four star easily, modern cars, no chance, empty forecourts and I drove on and filled up! Gone for years, false promises?

Sorry, don't trust politicians of any colour, or what they promise, and, potentially miles to fill up, on a product that 'goes off' if stored, therefore, finding a garage prepared to store, and have the turnover is something else. :evil:
E5 is already worse than "non bio" unleaded, doesn't keep long in storage, rots hoses and tanks and there have already been a few classics gutted by fires from E5. E5 is also a pain in hot weather in any carburettored car from fuel vaporisation.

So I can't see that E10 is any more to be feared, it's just more of the same! If you've prepared your car to run on E5, it'll probably work just as well (or badly) on E10.

If the fuel doesn't keep, there is a simple solution, DRIVE THE CAR MORE! You can buy E10 proof fuel hose, buy it and use it! And a great free cure for vaporisation, pop the bonnet in traffic jams to let the hot air out. This cuts vaporisation by a large percentage.

The only thing i'd advise is, if running Strombergs,with their fussy rubber diaphragms, switch to SUs!

Uprating to EFI is the best way, if not the cheapest, but it will eliminate vaporisation entirely and also give you a cleaner, greener, more efficient and longer lasting engine. Worth a thought if you are going to be in this for the long haul! Remember, they are only banning the sale of NEW fossil fueled cars after 2035 (still 15 years ahead) they are not banning the use of existing ones, all 20,000,000 of them in the UK alone! I don't reckon I'll live to see the end of fossil fueled cars unless there is a major breakthrough in technology that renders them obsolete, maybe not even then! Electric won't do the job for many different reasons.

By the way, I wouldn't trust any politician further than I could throw one either! So it behooves us to find our own solutions!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:27 pm 
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In NL we have already some E10 experience. Most cars before 2000 are not suitable for this fuel and some after 2000 also not and these have to use the more expensive E0 fuel. The manufactureres have a list which model you can or can't use E10. Suitable for E10 does mean you fuel pump or injector 0-rings don't dissolve quickly in the "new" fuel but it's not a guarantee that the engine will run on it. I have temporary Nissan Primera now as someone crashed into my 1969 daily Volvo and the Nissan doesn't run properly on the E10. Towing a 1000kg caravan wasn't possible with a 2 litre Nissan engine running on E10. The E0 is getting cheaper now here because I think some of the stations do sell E0 now more than the cheaper E10. The fuel economy using E0 can be such an improvement that it is actually cheaper running E0 liter/km than the cheaper E10 fuel. For E10 you pay the same for less fuel and less fuel means you have to use more of it.

I have seen a few faillures on classics. Fuel hoses do dissovle as pump membranes, the rubber gasket inbetween your tankfloat and tank etc. These faillures are not fairytales but things that do happen. Carbs that fall apart etc. You can make your classic E10 proof by using the correct hoses. NOT all shops have these. Check yourself what is actually printed on the hoses you buy that it is E10 proof. Not all new modern hoses are aldough the seller will guarantee because he thinks it E10 proof. Don't forget the fuelpump and when you have bought nos carb sets on an autojumble, use these for decoration only. The new sets and floats you can buy at Burlen are E10 proof. Unknown sets of unknown age you better not use.

If you have your car E10 proof then you conclude it wont run on it.

Luckily 90% of the filling stations here in NL do sell E0 so most can keep driving but when the E0 isn't avialable anymore a lot od drivers do have a problem, classic or modern.

Jeroen.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:35 pm 
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Quote:
In NL we have already some E10 experience. Most cars before 2000 are not suitable for this fuel and some after 2000 also not and these have to use the more expensive E0 fuel. The manufactureres have a list which model you can or can't use E10. Suitable for E10 does mean you fuel pump or injector 0-rings don't dissolve quickly in the "new" fuel but it's not a guarantee that the engine will run on it. I have temporary Nissan Primera now as someone crashed into my 1969 daily Volvo and the Nissan doesn't run properly on the E10. Towing a 1000kg caravan wasn't possible with a 2 litre Nissan engine running on E10. The E0 is getting cheaper now here because I think some of the stations do sell E0 now more than the cheaper E10. The fuel economy using E0 can be such an improvement that it is actually cheaper running E0 liter/km than the cheaper E10 fuel. For E10 you pay the same for less fuel and less fuel means you have to use more of it.

I have seen a few faillures on classics. Fuel hoses do dissovle as pump membranes, the rubber gasket inbetween your tankfloat and tank etc. These faillures are not fairytales but things that do happen. Carbs that fall apart etc. You can make your classic E10 proof by using the correct hoses. NOT all shops have these. Check yourself what is actually printed on the hoses you buy that it is E10 proof. Not all new modern hoses are aldough the seller will guarantee because he thinks it E10 proof. Don't forget the fuelpump and when you have bought nos carb sets on an autojumble, use these for decoration only. The new sets and floats you can buy at Burlen are E10 proof. Unknown sets of unknown age you better not use.

If you have your car E10 proof then you conclude it wont run on it.

Luckily 90% of the filling stations here in NL do sell E0 so most can keep driving but when the E0 isn't avialable anymore a lot od drivers do have a problem, classic or modern.

Jeroen.
Not trying to be rude Jeroen, just asking for clarification!

What year is your Primera? And when you say it won't run properly on E10, what exactly is the problem? Detonation from low octane?

I've E5 proofed my Sprint with R9 hose everywhere and it has an EFi motor from a 2000MY Omega with a high pressure fuel pump from a Vectra A circa 1993. Anything else I should do? It seems to run OK so far! But AFAIK, there is NO E10 available in the UK currently.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:30 pm 
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Yes Steve you may ask. Its a wp11 1998-2002 serie Primera.

It's not detonation but a power loss. I have no emotional connection to this car and when it runs it runs. Oil changes itself during driving maintainance. At cruising at constant speed it always had a little hesistation and it didn't bother me. Not a misfiring but if it was a Dolomite I would screw the jets a bit more down to have more fuel.

Towing a caravan to Italy the last holiday the car was lacking power and it was the same like pulling with my 90hp LPG Volvo. Not that fast.
As A test and because fuel is cheaper in Germany i decided to fill with shell v power E0 on my way and a difference was noticable. When you notice more power it's at least 10hp and a few NM more as 4 hp extra you won't notice and only see on a rolling road.

After the holiday's i tried it here in NL and using E0 the cruising was more comfortable and the car felt more lively. As a test I drove 3 tanks of E10, home to workshop and school for kids. All exact the same driving conditions on three tanks. I did the same using E0 to compare but to be honest I didn't count all yet. I have the results but have to calculate both L/km but the reason I didn't bother is that using E0 makes it a bit less suffering to drive this kind of car. It's my newest car ever and even has an airbag....

Adjusting cars was for almost 10 years a daily job and now it's once or twice a month but i'm very sensitive for improvements during roadtests and I know if an hesitiation is an fuel or ignition thing during testdrives. The difference in E10 and E0 in the Primera is not something that's between the ears or some imagination.

A friend of mine drives youngtimer Volvo's and his daily 960 won't run either on E10.

In NL I used to drive on the cheapest unbranded fuels so I compared unbranded E10 to a branded E0 but during the holiday's I used the branded E10's also like the Shell or BP as there are no unbranded stations on the autobahn and those E10's weren't also a succes.

I do notice a difference in between the fuels and that's only what I can say.

Jeroen

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:42 pm 
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Quote:

I've E5 proofed my Sprint with R9 hose everywhere and it has an EFi motor from a 2000MY Omega with a high pressure fuel pump from a Vectra A circa 1993. Anything else I should do? It seems to run OK so far! But AFAIK, there is NO E10 available in the UK currently.

Steve
For the fuel hoses I use the Gates 4219 series. There are several types of these like the type that sits in the fuel tank constantly or armoured but you can buy the 4219 also as the regular flexi rubber hose for your std carb or fuel injected car.

I did check for your parts, all Opels, no Vauxhalls are listed are E10 proof from 2011 on. The ones before 2011 the Omega and also the Vectra A are listed as E10 proof but not the 2,2 engines. So the rubber parts in the Opel's fuel system are ok to use but I'm not sure these are the same as the Vauxhall.s.

Jeroen

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:39 am 
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The car I broke for the engine was badged Vauxhall but the ViN plate said it was built by Adam Opel AG! Apparently there are 2 different 2.2 litre engines, mine is the earlier belt driven one.

About the only thing I haven't changed in the fuel system is the seal ring round the (Triumph) fuel guage sender and the tank itself, all new hard and soft lines with R9 (this is the UK spec for E5 and high pressure) and copper pipe. I've even replaced the 12mm tank breather hose with R9, which took some getting!

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:19 am 
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Z22YH engine code isn't suitable. And it states that all parts must be original. No guarantee that afteremarket replacement parts for these cars are E10 proof but that nothing new I guess...

When you google on R9 fuel hose failure you find enough info about these that a printed R9 on the hose is not saying that much. I do replace hoses on customers cars and need to be sure the hoses fitted do last. The gates 4219 is a fuel hose that is of a good quality and has proven itself for years now not so soften, dissolve or crack. Unbranded hoses with R9 on them, also sold by popular suppliers, arent always a succes so I would check before or after a few months of driving to see if they are really suitable.

Jeroen

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:33 am 
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My son is a VW camper enthusiast and those vehicles are prone to fuel fires due to the high temperatures in the engine bay. On this link https://www.vwaircooledworks.co.uk/Fuel ... paign.html the issue of ethanol safe fuel lines is discussed. One statement regarding R9 I shall quote
"There are several types of fuel line available on the market, the minimum specification you need to be chancing over to fuel hose manufactured to the European standard of SAE J30 R9. This fuel hose is suitable for modern petrol and is designed to last in a standard modern car the length of its warrenty, so about 5 years. This however is significantly reduced in camper-vans due to the storage period and in practice it tends to need changing about every 2 / 3years. You will need to continue to check the fuel hose, as though suitable for use in upto E10 petrol, it does still contain rubber so will deteriorate over time."

This company sells what it calls "100% Bio-fuel 'Fit and Forget' Fuel Hose" and I bought some for my classics. I hope its as good as they say. https://www.vwaircooledworks.co.uk/Fuel ... tails.html

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Mike
(1969 MGB GTV8, 1977 Dolomite 1850HL, 1971 MGB roadster now all three on the road)


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