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 Post subject: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:48 am 
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I want to build a rig for testing gearboxes/overdrives, something I've been meaning to do for years. I want to use a single phase electric motor to turn the gearbox input shaft or possibly the O/D output flange. Can anyone enlighten me as to what type & power motor I would need? Does anyone have an old one knocking around that they no longer need?

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:42 am 
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Washing machine motor?


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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:55 am 
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Washing machine motor?
I'm not sure Mary would appreciate that! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:13 pm 
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Unless it is a really old style washing machine then a washing machine motor would l be a nightmare to wire up. They usually have multiple windings so they can run at the different speeds required. Some have variable frequency drives to alter the speed.

A "normal" AC motor such as the ones on "home" compressors, drilling machines etc. are usually single phase induction motors. There are different variants but generally they are single speed - related to the mains frequency of 50 Hz. Two pole motors run at around 3000 rpm and four pole at 1500 rpm. Some can be driven by a variable frequency "power pack" which allows for the speed to be varied within limits. They are of course available in a range of power from a fraction of a HP up to a max of around 4HP (3kW) on single phase electrics - the starting current is usually the limiting factor. They are not particularly cheap.

I suspect it would be nice to have fully variable speed in which case why not look at using an electric drill --they are relatively cheap and run up to around 3000rpm. I would think one with a 600Watt motor would do. (that must equate to around 1/2 HP after losses). It should be fairly easy to make a clamp to hold it in place and they have variable speed built in. Also the chuck should make it easy to grip a drive adaptor to couple to the gearbox input shaft or what ever you wish to test.

You could also look at smaller 12V DC motors used on cars, thinking window winder motors, but it depends on what speed you want and whether they would be powerful enough, and you would have the issue of speed control. Or use a car starter motor - trouble is that won't take any prisoners if there is a problem with the gearbox :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:46 am 
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Thanks marshman. You mentioned "drilling machines" and I suddenly realised I have recently bought a new pillar drill, so my old one is sat in the corner of the workshop ready to be sold. I think I will strip it down and try that motor, plus I have the pulleys already on the motor. :eureka:

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:30 am 
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To actually drive the gearbox, I thought, get the centre boss from an old clutch plate and weld it into a deep socket and cut the top off a12" extension. I thought it'd be easier to drive the back end, then realised that the load would be all over the backside of the gear teeth (as on over-run) which might make the box artificially noisy.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:13 am 
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If you mount the motor on a pivot with little tension on the belt in it's resting state you can then turn the motor on and the pulley will slip on the belt, you can then pull on the lever to tension the belt a little and use it as a sort of clutch to "feed" in the power. If you want to "fix" the motor then still fit it with the belt "slack" and use a pivoted idler wheel as a tensioner connected to a simple lever.

Not explained it very well but hope you get the idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:59 am 
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I thought of using an old clutch plate as well Steve or just fix a pulley directly to the input shaft (½"). I also found this pic on the Buckeye site but I too was concerned about driving it from that end...

Image

I understand what you are saying marshman. As you said, fix the motor with a bit of slack and have a lever of some description pushing on the belt to give it some tension, similar to when you push on the fan belt to turn the crankshaft pulley in the car.

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:16 pm 
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After taking a closer look this morning, it would seem that it is probably better to drive the flange end. The input shaft sticks out of the front of the gearbox by 6-7 inches and has side play, this is usually no problem as the end of the shaft locates in the spigot bearing which holds it centrally. I would be putting a fair amount of stress on that shaft if I were to drive it from that end.

Here is my old pillar drill motor...


Image

Image

If I drive the flange then I would like to have the motor positioned similarly to the one in the photo above, this means the motor will need to run in an anti-clockwise direction. This motor runs clockwise, is there a way to reverse the direction?

Also, can I use one of these to control the speed?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193869314227 ... %7Ciid%3A1

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:29 pm 
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Possibly and very doubtful !

I would assume it is a single phase induction motor of some sort -the bulge on the top I assume to be the Start Capacitor. You need to examine the wires that come from the motor and how the capacitor is connected. Also is the capacitor just a "start capacitor" or a "start/run" capacitor.

Best remove the cover and post a picture. If all the wires/connections are accessible then simply reversing the connection on the start winding should reverse the motor if it is a start capacitor only. If it is start/run then usually you have the reverse the connections on the main winding. Not always easy to identify wire is which but if you are lucky they will be marked inside the cover.

With regard to speed control, if it is indeed a single phase induction motor { and I think it is because the speed is stated to be 1440rpm which indicates it is a 4 pole one (120 x 50Hz)/4[poles] = 1500rpm, allow 4% "slip" and you get 1440 rpm } then the speed is controlled by frequency of supply and not the voltage/power. So you would really need a variable frequency drive matched to the motor! - this varies the frequency and supply voltage to prevent excessive losses (heat!) at low speeds. You can sometimes get away with reducing the voltage/power but it is not very effective as it just leads to increased "slippage" as the rotor doesn't keep up with the rotating magnetic field - which in turn leads to inefficiencies, also large variations are required to affect the speed.

The above "complications" are why are thought the simplest "variable speed" solution would be a normal (hand held) electric drill.

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:32 am 
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If you use an old fashioned hand held drill and drive the input shaft with the old clutch disc idea, the power going in is in line with the shaft, ergo no side play to be concerned about. Those sorts of drills are nearly always reversible and variable speed too. Why make life hard for yourself?

It's only really worth testing in 4th gear anyway, you won't be changing gear with it turning over and the lack of a spigot bearing to keep the input shaft gear centralised will mean noise testing in the intermediate gears will be inconclusive at best. If the O/D works in 4th, it should by rights work in 3rd too as the same circuitry bits are involved.

Do you know how fast it needs to spin for the pump to generate enough pressure to work the overdrive? Can't be a whole lot, probably less than 1000rpm, possibly as little as 200.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:51 pm 
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To test a gearbox and the overdrive it's a bit stupid to drive it at the flange... All turns in opposite direction, the load is in opposite direction so all the gears and thrustwashers are pushed away against eachother in the opposite direction... and you are not directly pumping the od oilpump.

You are not testing it in that way.

Jeroen

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:23 pm 
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To test a gearbox and the overdrive it's a bit stupid to drive it at the flange... All turns in opposite direction, the load is in opposite direction so all the gears and thrustwashers are pushed away against eachother in the opposite direction... and you are not directly pumping the od oilpump.

You are not testing it in that way.

Jeroen
Jeroen. If I was going to drive it from the flange I would still rotate it in the correct direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:14 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
To test a gearbox and the overdrive it's a bit stupid to drive it at the flange... All turns in opposite direction, the load is in opposite direction so all the gears and thrustwashers are pushed away against eachother in the opposite direction... and you are not directly pumping the od oilpump.

You are not testing it in that way.

Jeroen
Jeroen. If I was going to drive it from the flange I would still rotate it in the correct direction.
I understand but that is what I mean. All is opposite that way.

Jeroen

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 Post subject: Re: Electric Motor
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:38 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To test a gearbox and the overdrive it's a bit stupid to drive it at the flange... All turns in opposite direction, the load is in opposite direction so all the gears and thrustwashers are pushed away against eachother in the opposite direction... and you are not directly pumping the od oilpump.

You are not testing it in that way.

Jeroen
Jeroen. If I was going to drive it from the flange I would still rotate it in the correct direction.
I understand but that is what I mean. All is opposite that way.

Jeroen
Ah! yes, I know what you mean. I believe Carledo mentioned that above.

I will have to come up with a way of driving it from the input shaft then. :scratchin: Maybe use some of the ideas above.

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