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 Post subject: dolly 1300 tuning guide?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Hi all

I Would like to ask a few various questions about tuning my 1300 dolly engine. currently running as sweet as a nut. But personally would like to give it a fair few more horses and hopefully gain a little more torque.

Ive just found this tuning guide on 1300 spitfire engine tuning.

http://www.totallytriumph.net/spitfire/ ... html#Power < click link

Insurance won't be an issue by the time the modifications will be completed. as I am begining to stock parts away over the coming months, So i have all the parts ready to fit over next winter (2012 winter time)

I have had a look at the various cams,rocker shafts,and cylinder options (tufftrided and gas flow idea's)
This will be my first attempt at seriously modifying a classic car engine (however i will have my grandad and his friends to help me fit etc)

If the above tuning guide is a good guide to follow I may just follow the guide (possibly make one or two alterations to my setup.

It will be my daily runner when it has been rebuilt. so I would ideally like reliability combined with a little more torque and BHP.

I had thought along the lines of:
Cylinder head converted to unleaded
Gas flowed
tufftrided
uprated valve springs
all ported and polished
triumphtune 83 deg cam with uprated rocker shaft
new headgasket
new piston rings
new small end bearings
new big end shells
new big end bearings
clean the oil strainer and other parts that will be staying
1500 inlet manifold and exhaust.
re-cored rad
electric fan
(possibly an oil cooler..)

as for the gearing... I would like to change it but currently don't know which way to go..
as motorway journeys etc do seem to be stressing the engine.
But with the new parts (going on the guide above..) should hopefully be producing around 110BHP or their abouts.. so..

Would it be too much to ask, for the occasional "enthusiastic" drive capabilities that can still cope well on the motorway? id been thinking of a happy medium eg 1500 or 1850 diff and or gearbox?

As for the brakes..Upgrading from original 1300 single line brakes? Someone had suggested "trackerjack's" brake conversion but i would like your opinions on this..

It will hopefully be coming off the road next winter,for a complete strip down and respray and rebuild with a much punchier 1300 lump (same engine but new uprated guts). (staying the same pagent blue,but with various black items to tone things down.

As or the suspension,think thats sorted with the uprated 1" lower springs and dampers available.

Any other suggestions and idea's are more than welcome... as said "im a n00b" to triumph tuning :lol:

Thanks

Rob


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Trackerjack brakes are THE brakes to go for until you start talking silly power outputs.

A Dolly 1850 axle and box is on the limit with a TR7 lump thrown in which iirc is 105bhp. 110 and you'll be changing diff and gearbox every few thousand miles. Uprate it to Sprint spec for best longevity.

You say to fit over next winter, please, look at quotes first, having had a license for a year isn't a license to do what you like with a car insurer wise. Admittedly I've not had my license much longer than you and have had quotes with an extensive mod list, but it's definitely worth checking.
Tuning the ohv lumps isn't something I can claim to know anything about, Jod is the man you want to answer the questions in that regard.

What I would say though, is get used to driving and maintaining a standard classic before you go chasing power outputs (Yes, I know it's hilarious me saying that, but I now realise after making huge plans when I first got mine that really, there is naff all point going for more when you don't really know what you've got). Yes it'll be slower than your mates for a while and it'll infuriate you at times, but as soon as you go chasing the horses, it gets expensive. Fast.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:21 pm 
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Tuning the dolomite 1300 engine is pointless. If you want to stick to 1300 then you need a spitfire 1300 from a mk3 It has a better head but mainly it has I light weight crank. So will rev much higher. In my opion you would be better with a 1500 as this has so much more torque which is needed in a dolomite size car It won't rev high due to the crank being very heavy but makes up for that in the torque. I seem to remember bring told that the 1500fwd has a light weight long stroke crank that can be used, very strong and will rev a lot higher than the standard 1500 boat anchor crank.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:50 pm 
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The 1500FWD crank is different, and cannot be used in a rear drive application to my knowledge.

There are plenty of reasons to tune the 1300 engine and contrary to the previous poster, I would not go for a 1500. Yes, it has more torque, but the long stroke crank is unsuited to high revs and the car is best driven on the torque curve as if it was a diesel. You can make a 1500 go very well indeed, and hang together whilst doing it, but you will need to spend £5000 to do it properly and I suspect your budget is somewhat less than that.

Yes the small journal 1300 engine as fitted to the Spit Mk3 is the best place to start in an ideal world, but in the real world these engines are no in very short supply. You are more likely to end up with the large journal crank engine as fitted to later Mk IV Spits, Toledos and Dolly 1300's. This engine can actually be balanced very nicely and will, in suitably lightened and balanced form, with ARP or Cosworth rod and cap bolts will safely rev to 8,000rpm.

The Triumph works engines produced 127bhp at 7,700rpm - exactly the same output as a standard Sprint. To build an engine of this output and quality will cost you proper money - I know of a secondhand one for sale for £6K. You could not really drive such an engine on the road - it would be almost impossible.

Assuming your sights are set somewhat lower, you can obtain a nice usable 80-90 bhp from a 1300 ohv engine without breaking the bank. It will also be tractable and give decent fuel consumption.

the best thing to do would be to buy a serviceable spare engine and to rebuild that, thus ensuring that your car is not off the road for ages. Don't be afraid to experiment yourself, especially where cylinder head work is concerned, as spare heads for these cars are everywhere. You can gain the most in the cylinder head area. I built my first performance engine at the age of 18 and it was an enjoyable voyage of discovery. Getting 10 or 12 horsepower just from doing some head work is extremely therapeutic and satisfying.

Tread carefully, read as much as you can, and get as much advice as you can. But, above all, enjoy it.

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2016 Range Rover Vogue SE
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:03 pm 
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As an enthusiast and advocate of the 1500 engine I have to say I completely agree with Martin, it's a rare and dedicated man that goes that route tuning a 4 pot Triumph.

One area Martin missed that can give good return on investment is the exhaust. There are loads of varieties of 4 branch manifolds made for the spit because it is well known that they can if good give useful HP. The trouble is most of those available are not good, are not engineered correctly and just made to relieve the polish-and-sit-in-a-field brigade of their cash. The other small problem is none made for a spit will fit a dolomite because the subframe is in the way. Be that as it may the theory is good and if you have time, the ability to weld and patience the calculations needed for bores and lengths to use is available. Have a read of the Gareth Thomas book for a start on that particular sub-project.

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 Post subject: In.....
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Dolly Mixture 122 (May 2007), there is an article on the Janspeed Toledo (TWV 671J).
With its Weber carburrettors it could certainly go.

Standard Toledo top speed 85mph, 0-60mph 17.2s, 0-80mph 48.8s and 32miles/gallon
Janspeed Toledo top speed 105mph, 0-60 in 9.5s, 0-80 in 18s :shock: , but 20mpg :roll: .

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Hi Rob,

I like your enthusiasm :D , i remember doing something very similar with my first car, a 1300fwd. The first thing i would say is, if you intend to use this as your every day car don't aim for more than say 90 Bhp, from my experience if you try to obtain more that this you will lose too much torque at lower revs, in something like a Spitfire which is lighter (but not by as much as you'd think!) you can get away with it.
I wouldn't change the gearing until you have driven with the tuned engine, otherwise you might find yourself driving everywhere in 3rd gear ( because it won't pull top until you doing 75 (Officer) ! ). Personally with a tuned 1300 i'd stick with the 4.11 diff and maybe a 1850 o/d gearbox (i believe they have closer ratios ?) the ford box i have no experience of.

Apart from all the usual things like balancing the rotating parts and flowing the head, a good oil pump is essential. But as for the more interesting parts for the engine, an extractor exhaust manifold will probably make the most noticeable difference ( took me 10 years to find one for the fwd :shock: ) HS2 SU carbs will be more than adequate, you could uses HS4's but you start loosing low end torque again. if you feel the need to do something fancy consider something like Megasquirt 8) ( I intend to use Megasqirt on my 1300fwd )lastly but most importantly don't over cam it, go for a mild cam as you need the tractability.

Then you should end up with a car that will give 35mpg when driven sensibly, but will quite happily hit 7500 rpm ( but not to often eh! ) and put a smile on your face every time you drive it :D

Gordon

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 Post subject: Re: In.....
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:57 pm 
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Quote:
Dolly Mixture 122 (May 2007), there is an article on the Janspeed Toledo (TWV 671J).
With its Weber carburrettors it could certainly go.

Standard Toledo top speed 85mph, 0-60mph 17.2s, 0-80mph 48.8s and 32miles/gallon
Janspeed Toledo top speed 105mph, 0-60 in 9.5s, 0-80 in 18s :shock: , but 20mpg :roll: .
Yes, i had twin Webers on my 1300 for a while, they do make a fantastic noise. But as you can see (20mpg!) drilling a small hole in the bottom of the fuel tank can have similar results :D


Attachments:
JfJ twin Webers sml.jpg
JfJ twin Webers sml.jpg [ 160.91 KiB | Viewed 7869 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
I seem to remember bring told that the 1500fwd has a light weight long stroke crank
Yes, but this was only for the export version of the 1300fwd (sold in South Africa and other places) not the later Dolomite looking one .

Quote:
The 1500FWD crank is different, and cannot be used in a rear drive application to my knowledge
The only difference i'm aware of is the taper on the nose of the crank, if you use the fwd front pulley it should go into a rwd car, but i don't see any benefit in doing so.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Sorry to be a neg but I find myself saying why.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:55 am 
If you want more power, have a bigger engine. A 1300 just isn't going to be worth spending the money on.

I would buy a spare engine, as big as you think you can fit and afford. You can give a it a rebuild and possibly add some go faster goodies to it if you want more...but always start with the biggest lump you can.
Don't fall into the power to weight or bhp/litre trap.

Remember, the fuel isn't going to be an issue. Engine size has relatively little to do with fuel consumption....that's determined by two things, the weight of the car and your right foot.
A healthy 2.0 in a low state of tune is going to be more powerful and more economical than a modified 1300.


Can you get a V8 in there? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:01 pm 
I'm going to do some (lower level) stuff on my 1300 at some point. My current engine isn't going to last many more years, so I'm trying to get a second engine to rebuild. The stuff on my list is this really

- Skim/flow head & convert to unleaded (Chris Witor did my Dad's 2000 several years ago, I will contact him to see if he can do 1300 heads, I can't see why not)
- Twin SU Carbs
- New exhaust (custom maybe?)
- Possibly a mild cam, but I don't want to loose much low end power. (Again, Dad uprated his, but has since gone back to the standard cam, as it give more low end torque, useful for towing!)
- Balancing crank, flywheel, starter ring etc
- Plus replacing all worn parts where necessary
- If the cooling system is then not up to it, I'll fit a bigger rad too (Am I correct in thinking that the early 1300FWD rads are bigger than the late ones?)

I'm not going to take it too far, otherwise I'll be breaking input shafts + it'll cost too much!

Saying about wanting yours to do motorway speeds - why not take the smaller roads. a bit slower + much nicer scenery + less twats + more twisty turny bits = a more enjoyable ride :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Sorry to be a neg but I find myself saying why.
Because he can? :wink:

We were all young once. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Saying about wanting yours to do motorway speeds - why not take the smaller roads. a bit slower + much nicer scenery + less twats + more twisty turny bits = a more enjoyable ride :)
In all seriousness, that's what I've started doing - although my car will do 70+ it's happy at 50 - 60 so it's perfect for A roads and national speed limit stretches, I found I have enjoyed exploring a bit more instead of just hitting the motorway to get to places. Sounds obvious but I was surprised how much fun I found myself having on a trip back from Doncaster of all places....!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:24 pm 
Quote:
Quote:
Saying about wanting yours to do motorway speeds - why not take the smaller roads. a bit slower + much nicer scenery + less twats + more twisty turny bits = a more enjoyable ride :)
In all seriousness, that's what I've started doing - although my car will do 70+ it's happy at 50 - 60 so it's perfect for A roads and national speed limit stretches, I found I have enjoyed exploring a bit more instead of just hitting the motorway to get to places. Sounds obvious but I was surprised how much fun I found myself having on a trip back from Doncaster of all places....!
It's always more fun LEAVING Doncaster.


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