Standard Shocks & Springs

[soe8m]

I certainly wouldn't entertain the notion of using s/hand springs. That's just my choice. You can, also. have bespoke springs made if you have the patience and deep enough pockets. At least you know it'll fit exactly...

More than 500.000km experience, 25 years and about 30 different Dolomites used for daily driving and rallying did tell me the current replacements are not good and second hand originals do last longer.

[Carledo]

I'm with Jeroen on this one! In a modern, I wouldn't give you threepence for a used spring, even new pattern springs for moderns (mostly cold coiled ) are fragile and don't last 5 minutes! One of my customers has a diesel Zafira that has got through 13 springs in 7 years and 22000 miles.

But in all the Dolomites i've owned, and all the Dolomites i've know, and all the people i've known who've owned Dolomites, I could only come up with ONE person who'd ever had one break on them! I actually had a thread about in the general section of this forum a couple of years ago and the only one who reported a broken spring was Ian (Sprint95M) who had a rear one fail. That's it!

So I'd trust a used original one over a modern pattern one (whoever supplies it) anyday!

Steve

[cliftyhanger]

Seriously? How can they sell low quality springs, I can understand some parts being difficult to source but a suspension spring should be simple. Plenty of companies can make them to any spec you want.

Yes, springs are simple items, but as above, most are now cold wound as it is a cheaper process. I bought a new rear spring for my spitfire, it sagged and the bushes totally deformed in a single weekend (OK, about 1000 miles up to Scotland, half that mileage on pretty rough roads, refunded by the seller and threw it in the bin)
And 95% of buyers seem to buy on price, so only the cheap ones are available because nobody can afford to get a batch of quality springs made and sell maybe 2 sets a year because the are twice the price of others. Happens all the time with parts, quality is driven down by consumers wanting cheap. The few who want quality struggle.
I mean just look at the new borg and beck clutches, no resemblance to the proper old ones. Or the Lucas stuff in green boxes, carp compared to the old stuff in red boxes. The TDC is VERY lucky to have people who source and commission batches of good quality components, many clubs don't bother as too much hassle and no money to be made.

[veloce_rosso]

I certainly wouldn't entertain the notion of using s/hand springs. That's just my choice. You can, also. have bespoke springs made if you have the patience and deep enough pockets. At least you know it'll fit exactly...

More than 500.000km experience, 25 years and about 30 different Dolomites used for daily driving and rallying did tell me the current replacements are not good and second hand originals do last longer.

I fully appreciate where you're coming from, however...

Although I don't have the kms to match yours because I haven't raced, apart from Karting as a teenager, but I did take an 18 month apprenticeship in engineering when I worked for a steel manufactures. They made nuts, bolts, chemical anchor fixings for buildings, the military etc etc. I can categorically state that all metals degrade over time, especially those under stress like a car or lorry spring. The modern equivalents are invariably composites (alloys) that generally last longer. Or in other words the tensile strength of modern alloys are less brittle than ones made 40 or so years ago, hence why I wouldn't fit old springs even to old cars.

Having passed my driving test nearly 40 years ago and had over 30 cars (various makes: The good, the bad and outright ugly) I've yet to experience that goes against that thought process.

If I was to get new springs I would save my pocket money and have a bespoke set, whether that's 2 or 4.

[georgethompson730]

Now there's a thought, is this something that the club could consider doing, such is the confusion surrounding standard fitment. I made a quick phone call to Springcoil Ltd. in Sheffield who have made lowered springs for our cars before and is currently investigating if they have the pattern for part no.217989 & 218924. If they don't they can remanufacture from a supplied spring. Cost would be in the £60 region, which doesn't seem that bad. Any thoughts if this is something the club would want to get involved in.

[georgethompson730]

I missed the previous posts, before My last one. The problem that springs (no pun intended) to mind is how can you confirm what part no. an 'old' spring is before fitting? even our usual port of calls don't seem to sell the correct new part.
I would gladly take an old pair or set of springs, anyone?, if I could confirm actually what they were. Beyond that what else am I supposed to do?

[veloce_rosso]

If you can't source the part number then the only thing I can think of is to take you spring(s) in to an engineering shop and tlet them take the measurements and spec. They can probably make a mould and give you the spring back. Depending on how busy they are it could take up to a month. And if you tell them you want a spring that's more user friendly they can literally taylor make springs for you, out whatever material gives you the best all-round performance for reliability & comfort. The only trade-off is the cost. They probably won't be cheap.

I have every respect for anyone who wants to stay with older springs, but personally speaking I would feel more at ease with new ones.

[Carledo]

I have a pair of Sprint front springs that were on the Dolomega when I bought it. No reason to suspect they are not the originals, they are certainly grubby enough. The ride height when I bought the car was pretty stock looking and the car itself more or less unmolested.

They would have gone back on, but I was lucky enough to get my hands on a NOS pair a few years ago. You are welcome to use them as patterns. Sorry I can't do the rears too, they DID go back on, just with new shox!

I also have 1x NOS Unipart front shocker, still boxed (just about) that i'd be prepared to part with if that's any help to anyone (and 1x matching rear one)

Steve

[veloce_rosso]

This is the biggest problem with aftermarket or pattern parts. They may fit fine and look original but usually made from substandard materials, due to production and storage costs.

Of course, because not all parts wear evenly due to road conditions and driving style, I would always budget for a pair or all 4 if you think both fronts and backs need replacing.

Can I just state I don't work in the car industry, so have no bias for any one company or another.

[georgethompson730]

Thanks for the very kind offers, but I'm confident given my new found knowledge gained from here and elsewhere that the 1850HL is different set up to the Sprint at the front. I've currently got lowered Spax and uprated springs all round. I can't use these as a pattern as the front sits low and the rear higher, despite the fact it was brought as a 1" lowered kit all round. Who thought it would be so hard to revert back to a standard set up. The roads in rural Somerset are pretty poor these days so lower and firmer doesn't work for me any more, not to mention I'm not 21 anymore either

[Carledo]

Thanks for the very kind offers, but I'm confident given my new found knowledge gained from here and elsewhere that the 1850HL is different set up to the Sprint at the front. I've currently got lowered Spax and uprated springs all round. I can't use these as a pattern as the front sits low and the rear higher, despite the fact it was brought as a 1" lowered kit all round. Who thought it would be so hard to revert back to a standard set up. The roads in rural Somerset are pretty poor these days so lower and firmer doesn't work for me any more, not to mention I'm not 21 anymore either

Have you considered easing off the shock settings? I've found it makes a big difference to ride quality, if not height. I live in Shropshire, but visit Somerset often as I have a static caravan at the Haven in Burnham on Sea. Trust me, your roads are like sheet glass compared with ours, I'm also not 21 any more, not by about 45 years! One reason why I am building the Dolomega based on stock (or close) suspension and ride height settings. The aim being comfort over long distance. Any time I want my spine fractured and the fillings to fall from my few remaining teeth, I can take the track oriented Carledo out for a blast round the lanes!

Steve

[RobSun]

I certainly wouldn't entertain the notion of using s/hand springs. That's just my choice. You can, also. have bespoke springs made if you have the patience and deep enough pockets. At least you know it'll fit exactly...

More than 500.000km experience, 25 years and about 30 different Dolomites used for daily driving and rallying did tell me the current replacements are not good and second hand originals do last longer.

I fully appreciate where you're coming from, however...

Although I don't have the kms to match yours because I haven't raced, apart from Karting as a teenager, but I did take an 18 month apprenticeship in engineering when I worked for a steel manufactures. They made nuts, bolts, chemical anchor fixings for buildings, the military etc etc. I can categorically state that all metals degrade over time, especially those under stress like a car or lorry spring. The modern equivalents are invariably composites (alloys) that generally last longer. Or in other words the tensile strength of modern alloys are less brittle than ones made 40 or so years ago, hence why I wouldn't fit old springs even to old cars.

Having passed my driving test nearly 40 years ago and had over 30 cars (various makes: The good, the bad and outright ugly) I've yet to experience that goes against that thought process.

If I was to get new springs I would save my pocket money and have a bespoke set, whether that's 2 or 4.

In my experiences with 50 years driving and having owned over 30 cars, the older ones, excepting a Morris Marina company car which snapped the rear cart springs for fun, have never given me any problems with broken springs. However cars manufactured after 2000 have had several front spring failures. One luxury brand was recognised for them failing and retro fit tyre protectors were made available to help stop the tyres being shredded to reduce cars going out of control. These springs are known to fail in cold weather over night and also to snap on first movement when temps are low. On line forum searches will find many examples of spring failures on modern cars and Carledo is correct in his statement that modern springs are fragile and are far more brittle.

Even when I competed in the 60s and 70s in international rallying I never had a spring fail, but for springs too snap just because its a bit cold says only one thing to me, modern spring metallurgy is rubbish. I am also a retired highly qualified design engineer with letters after my name, who did a five year apprenticeship so feel able to comment. You are correct all metals can suffer stress failure over time from fatigue, intergranular corrosion, oxidisation, etc. but modern materials are more prone because of cost restraints on the manufacturing process and the product life only has to be longer than the warrantee. Replacements only have to last one year in most warrantee cases hence lower standards, so failing even more regularly as found on Carledo's customers Vauxhall

I have also seen so many cases of modern springs supplied to replace worn springs on classics sag in a very short time (sometimes days) that I too would put more faith in good second hand ones than a modern replacement.

[Carledo]

Another customer of mine has 3 of that "well known luxury brand" cars. They break front springs for a hobby, often whilst the car is stood still overnight or longer! And you guessed it, usually in winter! And before I learned of the upgrade tyre shield, cost him a ruck of money in punctured sidewalls!

Xsara Picassos have the same problem, somewhere in their long production run, the spring protectors became standard, but only on Diesel models! I had to go out and buy a pair for SWMBO's 56 plate 2.0 petrol auto! Hers is yet to break a spring, but it only has 60k on the clock and i'm VERY careful about potholes! However it may be due to the extra weight on the front end of diesels that makes them particularly susceptible to failure.

And Rob is quite correct about warantee life too, 2 or 3 times i've replaced springs on that Zaf I mentioned just prior to the MOT, by the next year's test, they've broken again, so LITERALLY days out of warantee, the manufacturers seem to have planned lifespan down to a fine art! I think of all the 13, I've only managed to get 1 replaced under warranty!

Steve

[veloce_rosso]

More than 500.000km experience, 25 years and about 30 different Dolomites used for daily driving and rallying did tell me the current replacements are not good and second hand originals do last longer.

I fully appreciate where you're coming from, however...

Although I don't have the kms to match yours because I haven't raced, apart from Karting as a teenager, but I did take an 18 month apprenticeship in engineering when I worked for a steel manufactures. They made nuts, bolts, chemical anchor fixings for buildings, the military etc etc. I can categorically state that all metals degrade over time, especially those under stress like a car or lorry spring. The modern equivalents are invariably composites (alloys) that generally last longer. Or in other words the tensile strength of modern alloys are less brittle than ones made 40 or so years ago, hence why I wouldn't fit old springs even to old cars.

Having passed my driving test nearly 40 years ago and had over 30 cars (various makes: The good, the bad and outright ugly) I've yet to experience that goes against that thought process.

If I was to get new springs I would save my pocket money and have a bespoke set, whether that's 2 or 4.

In my experiences with 50 years driving and having owned over 30 cars, the older ones, excepting a Morris Marina company car which snapped the rear cart springs for fun, have never given me any problems with broken springs. However cars manufactured after 2000 have had several front spring failures. One luxury brand was recognised for them failing and retro fit tyre protectors were made available to help stop the tyres being shredded to reduce cars going out of control. These springs are known to fail in cold weather over night and also to snap on first movement when temps are low. On line forum searches will find many examples of spring failures on modern cars and Carledo is correct in his statement that modern springs are fragile and are far more brittle.

Even when I competed in the 60s and 70s in international rallying I never had a spring fail, but for springs too snap just because its a bit cold says only one thing to me, modern spring metallurgy is rubbish. I am also a retired highly qualified design engineer with letters after my name, who did a five year apprenticeship so feel able to comment. You are correct all metals can suffer stress failure over time from fatigue, intergranular corrosion, oxidisation, etc. but modern materials are more prone because of cost restraints on the manufacturing process and the product life only has to be longer than the warrantee. Replacements only have to last one year in most warrantee cases hence lower standards, so failing even more regularly as found on Carledo's customers Vauxhall

I have also seen so many cases of modern springs supplied to replace worn springs on classics sag in a very short time (sometimes days) that I too would put more faith in good second hand ones than a modern replacement.

All can really say is I've owned no other make other than Alfa Romeos since 2006, and they are notoriously bad for suspension failure, especially the models I've owned (156s, 159 and GT). I've gone through many suspension arms, drop links, bushes etc etc etc... yet I've never had a spring failure. And all my Alfas have never been older than 2001. Is that luck? I've owned 5 in that period. In a 12-year period I've owned a 1850, 2 x Sprints and a Stag and never had a coolant problem. Is that also luck? Or is it I'm very vigilant and aware of the issues? I don't know the answer to any of those questions, other than I was/still am clued up and aware of the issues.

Once I buy a Dolly 1850 if it needs new springs I will have them made up regardless of cost, rather than relying on something you don't know how many miles they have covered... and/or have been abused.

However, I won't replace the springs if they don't need it: My philosophy has always been: "If it isn't broke...", even if it means the ride is harder than ideal. That's just my take on the auto biz.

[xvivalve]

I have a pair of Sprint front springs that were on the Dolomega when I bought it. No reason to suspect they are not the originals, they are certainly grubby enough. The ride height when I bought the car was pretty stock looking and the car itself more or less unmolested.

They would have gone back on, but I was lucky enough to get my hands on a NOS pair a few years ago. You are welcome to use them as patterns. Sorry I can't do the rears too, they DID go back on, just with new shox!

I also have 1x NOS Unipart front shocker, still boxed (just about) that i'd be prepared to part with if that's any help to anyone (and 1x matching rear one)

Steve

I too have a single unipart rear NOS, we should compare platform heights (as they can vary a bit!) to see if they are a pair...