The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

The Number One Club for owners of Triumph's range of small saloons from the 1960s and 1970s.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:52 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Engine change
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:19 pm 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:53 pm
Posts: 1699
Location: Harrow Middlesex
Has any one fitted a Rover K series engine in a Dolomite before ?

Dave


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:54 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Ken Wood ran a KV6 for a long time in a rally car, lots of film on youtube of it proceeding sideways at many knots!

He's also recently sold one with a T series partway in (the old 820 engine)

I've idly considered the possibility of using a 1.8 K series Turbo from a Rover 75/MGZT as parts are available to make the essentially FWD motor fit a Ford T9/MT75 gearbox. But with so many other, more robust engines available from Vauxhall, Ford, Nissan, Mazda, Honda and Saab, to name but a few, why bother with the flawed and fragile K series. Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.

But I don't just look for power, surprising as that may sound to folk who know me, I want long term reliability too! Once i've gone to the trouble of making it fit, I don't want to be pulling it out every other weekend to fix whatever it's broken! While I do get a high degree of enjoyment doing a convo, for me it's mainly a means to an end, the end in mind being tearing up street, strip, or racetrack, I build my cars so that I may enjoy driving them.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:29 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:42 pm
Posts: 3937
Location: Forest of Dean
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.
Doesn't that make it a perfect fit?

most of it's built in problems are now curable - Just like a Sprint or Stag.
when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing - Just like a triumph 1300 4 pot.
very light too - Just like a..... Ah.

_________________
1978 Pageant Sprint - the rustomite, 1972 Spitfire IV - sprintfire project, 1968 Valencia GT6 II - little Blue, 1980 Vermillion 1500HL - resting. 1974 Sienna 1500TC, Mrs Weevils big brown.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:35 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.
Doesn't that make it a perfect fit?

most of it's built in problems are now curable - Just like a Sprint or Stag.
when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing - Just like a triumph 1300 4 pot.
very light too - Just like a..... Ah.
I've spent a lot of my life doing Triumph's development engineering for them. I don't have enough life left to do Rover's!

My own engine of choice, the Vauxhall 8v "familyII" motor is no spring chicken either. Conceived in the 70s and first offered in the Astra/Kadett of 1980, it's simple, vastly tuneable and almost indestructible. But in terms of engineering and build quality, it's at least 2 generations ahead of anything Triumph built, at almost the same time! Other engines of equal quality are available from other makers, I just like this one best! The smaller versions (1200-1400cc) are buzzy and revvy, my own preference is for the larger, lazier, more torquey variants, (1600-2200) I was never that keen on having to row a car along on the gearbox, that's why I didn't enjoy my 2 Alfa Romeos that much!

I've kinda thought, for quite a while, that a 1.4 MPi N/A K series, with a modern close ratio 5 speed (or even 6 speed) gearbox, would be a fitting update for a Toledo, keep it sorta BL (the K series was entirely developed around Coventry, i've met 2 of the engineers responsible) and retain it's character. But with modern reliabity and a considerable BHP boost.

If I had a few more years and a LOT more money (or a lottery win and a staff of 10) I might have been inclined to give it a go, as it is, the end result wouldn't really be "my kind of car" so i'll probably devote whatever years of modding I have left, to building cars I actually WANT to drive when finished. Top of the list being a Triumph 2000 estate with a turbo'd Nissan RB20 straight 6 of around 300bhp. Still will sound like the 6 pot it started out as, love the sound of a 6 at full chat, but 3 times the power and spits flame on the over-run! What's not to love?

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:04 pm 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:26 am
Posts: 2473
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.
Doesn't that make it a perfect fit?

most of it's built in problems are now curable - Just like a Sprint or Stag.
when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing - Just like a triumph 1300 4 pot.
very light too - Just like a..... Ah.
I've spent a lot of my life doing Triumph's development engineering for them. I don't have enough life left to do Rover's!

My own engine of choice, the Vauxhall 8v "familyII" motor is no spring chicken either. Conceived in the 70s and first offered in the Astra/Kadett of 1980, it's simple, vastly tuneable and almost indestructible. But in terms of engineering and build quality, it's at least 2 generations ahead of anything Triumph built, at almost the same time! Other engines of equal quality are available from other makers, I just like this one best! The smaller versions (1200-1400cc) are buzzy and revvy, my own preference is for the larger, lazier, more torquey variants, (1600-2200) I was never that keen on having to row a car along on the gearbox, that's why I didn't enjoy my 2 Alfa Romeos that much!

I've kinda thought, for quite a while, that a 1.4 MPi N/A K series, with a modern close ratio 5 speed (or even 6 speed) gearbox, would be a fitting update for a Toledo, keep it sorta BL (the K series was entirely developed around Coventry, i've met 2 of the engineers responsible) and retain it's character. But with modern reliabity and a considerable BHP boost.

If I had a few more years and a LOT more money (or a lottery win and a staff of 10) I might have been inclined to give it a go, as it is, the end result wouldn't really be "my kind of car" so i'll probably devote whatever years of modding I have left, to building cars I actually WANT to drive when finished. Top of the list being a Triumph 2000 estate with a turbo'd Nissan RB20 straight 6 of around 300bhp. Still will sound like the 6 pot it started out as, love the sound of a 6 at full chat, but 3 times the power and spits flame on the over-run! What's not to love?

Steve
Steve, my mind has been over active on the car front, unlike my motivation to get up to the garage...
However, have you seen a saab turbo dropped into a dolly? I know you have mentioned the vauxhall versions, but the saab b234 seems to be a rather good engine, Triumph family (just) but I haven't seen one fitted. But you may of one, or know why not?

_________________
Clive Senior
Brighton


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:02 pm 
Offline
TDC West Mids Area Organiser
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 13316
Location: Over here...can't you see me?
Quote:
Ken Wood ran a KV6 for a long time in a rally car, lots of film on youtube of it proceeding sideways at many knots!

He's also recently sold one with a T series partway in (the old 820 engine)

I've idly considered the possibility of using a 1.8 K series Turbo from a Rover 75/MGZT as parts are available to make the essentially FWD motor fit a Ford T9/MT75 gearbox. But with so many other, more robust engines available from Vauxhall, Ford, Nissan, Mazda, Honda and Saab, to name but a few, why bother with the flawed and fragile K series. Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.

But I don't just look for power, surprising as that may sound to folk who know me, I want long term reliability too! Once i've gone to the trouble of making it fit, I don't want to be pulling it out every other weekend to fix whatever it's broken! While I do get a high degree of enjoyment doing a convo, for me it's mainly a means to an end, the end in mind being tearing up street, strip, or racetrack, I build my cars so that I may enjoy driving them.

Steve
Are you confusing Ken Wood with Ken Clarke? Do you not ken your Kens as they might say in Scotland?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:06 pm 
Offline
TDC West Mids Area Organiser
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 13316
Location: Over here...can't you see me?
Quote:
Steve, my mind has been over active on the car front, unlike my motivation to get up to the garage...
However, have you seen a saab turbo dropped into a dolly? I know you have mentioned the vauxhall versions, but the saab b234 seems to be a rather good engine, Triumph family (just) but I haven't seen one fitted. But you may of one, or know why not?
The SAAB engine is run with the pistons vertically aligned and rotated 180º in a SAAB, driving the front wheels....


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:34 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Quote:
Steve, my mind has been over active on the car front, unlike my motivation to get up to the garage...
However, have you seen a saab turbo dropped into a dolly? I know you have mentioned the vauxhall versions, but the saab b234 seems to be a rather good engine, Triumph family (just) but I haven't seen one fitted. But you may of one, or know why not?
The SAAB engine is run with the pistons vertically aligned and rotated 180º in a SAAB, driving the front wheels....
Alun's comment is not quite correct, the engine used in the FIRST Saab turbos (1979> IIRC) which is a development of the Triumph 1509cc (later 1854 and 1998cc) slant engine concept runs with the pistons inclined at 45 degrees to the vertical, just as a Sprint engine does. But because it's mounted in the Saab body with the flywheel forward and the timing chest hard against the bulkhead (rotated 180 degrees as Alun correctly states) the lean is towards the drivers side of the car. None of those discrepancies are really relevant to the conversion into the Sprint, except that the 45 degree tilt results, as it does in the Spint itself, with no good place for a free flowing exhaust manifold, let alone a decent sized turbocharger, near enough to the head to reduce lag to an acceptable level. Nor does the Saab's use of a belt driven water pump materially affect a conversion.

A bigger problem, is that the Saab unit is indeed FWD and uses a 1300FWD Triumph-like gearbox (but considerably more rugged) mounted, along with the diff, underneath the engine and which, obviously, contains the engine oil sump. So you'd have to fabricate an entire sump UNLESS the block design is still close enough to it's Triumph roots to accept a Sprint sump (wouldn't that be nice?) The same possibility exists for the gearbox mounting to the block. If the block is still similar enough at the rear end, it will accept the Sprint adaptor plates and gearbox. If either or both of these fittings aren't still the same, you are going to end up with a job that probably isn't worth the effort.

Whereas the later B202/4 engine DOES sit almost upright (7 degrees from vertical, if you want to be pedantic) leaving plenty of space for a sizable turbo, has a sump which aligns nicely with a Triumph subframe, mates perfectly with a Carlton/Omega/Manta gearbox through a readily available clutch and is strong enough to tune to 400bhp before expensive bottom end work is necessary.

The biggest problem I predict with the B202/4 engine is making suitable mounts for a longitudinally fitted engine when it was only ever designed to be fitted transversely. I actually had a B204 SE spec 150bhp turbo engine in my yard as I was seriously considering this as an option, that was the biggest stumbling block I could see. One of the main reasons I favour the Vauxhall engines is because they WERE used in longitudinal apps, even though the vast majority were transverse, all blocks carry the mount points for longitudinal fitting, which makes MY life easy peasy!

If you'd like to try it on, despite these possible (and definite) problems, there is a Saab specialist breaker near me, I might be able to liberate a B234 block to experiment with for not a lot of dosh!

Steve

PS, The B202 and B204 are not "Vauxhall engines" they are pure Saab. A carry-over from when Saab were an independent company. They were adapted, after the GM takeover, to accept Vauxhall gearboxes, which is handy! In fact the Saab 9-3 is on a Vectra A /Cavalier III floorpan, the only difference visible from below is the lower wishbones on the Saab are cast alloy where the Cav ones are pressed tin!

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:50 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:

Are you confusing Ken Wood with Ken Clarke? Do you not ken your Kens as they might say in Scotland?
No I meant Ken Wood! checkout "Ken Wood - Triumph Dolomite Sprint - Rally highlights 2011" on youtube, amongst others.

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:20 pm 
Offline
TDC West Mids Area Organiser
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 13316
Location: Over here...can't you see me?
Quote:
Quote:

Are you confusing Ken Wood with Ken Clarke? Do you not ken your Kens as they might say in Scotland?
No I meant Ken Wood! checkout "Ken Wood - Triumph Dolomite Sprint - Rally highlights 2011" on youtube, amongst others.

Steve
I know both of them well, Ken Wood was the first customer for GRP wings and valance which his red car wears well....but it was Ken Clarke who recently sold the Dolomite with part fitted T series...


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:05 am 
Quote:


I know both of them well, Ken Wood was the first customer for GRP wings and valance which his red car wears well....but it was Ken Clarke who recently sold the Dolomite with part fitted T series...
I checked out your site! Some neat stuff. Does anyone know if there's information on that Ken Wood's swap? It looks great from what I can tell.

Andrew


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:22 pm 
Offline
TDC Member

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:52 pm
Posts: 281
Location: North Yorkshire
Years ago I stumbled across a site where someone was doing a Saab swap in a TR7, he got far enough to prove the sumps were indeed interchangeable but gave up on when it got to mating the engine to the Rover 5 speed gearbox as I recall.

_________________
1977 1850 HL manual O/D


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:43 pm 
Offline
Future Club member hopefully!
Future Club member hopefully!

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
Posts: 1549
Quote:
Ken Wood ran a KV6 for a long time in a rally car, lots of film on youtube of it proceeding sideways at many knots!

He's also recently sold one with a T series partway in (the old 820 engine)

I've idly considered the possibility of using a 1.8 K series Turbo from a Rover 75/MGZT as parts are available to make the essentially FWD motor fit a Ford T9/MT75 gearbox. But with so many other, more robust engines available from Vauxhall, Ford, Nissan, Mazda, Honda and Saab, to name but a few, why bother with the flawed and fragile K series. Don't get me wrong, I don't really dislike the K series, most of it's built in problems are now curable and when sorted properly, it's a lovely, buzzy, revvy little thing and very light too.

But I don't just look for power, surprising as that may sound to folk who know me, I want long term reliability too! Once i've gone to the trouble of making it fit, I don't want to be pulling it out every other weekend to fix whatever it's broken! While I do get a high degree of enjoyment doing a convo, for me it's mainly a means to an end, the end in mind being tearing up street, strip, or racetrack, I build my cars so that I may enjoy driving them.

Steve
To be fair to the K-series, if you put it together properly it is reliable. I helped my father fix up his MGF and the engine in that has been pretty much bombproof.

The problem is too many who work on it don't really understand it. A classic example is the choice of head gaskets, most people will slap on a multi-layered gasket without realising that it is vital you check the heights of the cylinder liners above the face of the block first. If they are sitting too low, you have to use the older type Elastomer gasket.

The result is head gasket blows again and people call the engine junk. It is very similar to what happened in the 70's with the Stag, when they would slap a new gasket on without checking if the radiator was blocked, with the result to head blew again.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:50 pm 
Offline
TDC Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:35 pm
Posts: 956
Location: Filey, North Yorkshire
Quote:
To be fair to the K-series, if you put it together properly it is reliable. I helped my father fix up his MGF and the engine in that has been pretty much bombproof.
I worked with a petrol head who's also been a design engineer at championship winning F1 teams who REALLY rates the K-series... but shares a similar opinion, too many people work on them assuming "everything is normal" when you need to follow the manual and build/fix it right.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Engine change
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:09 pm 
Offline
TDC Shropshire Area Organiser

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Posts: 7013
Location: Highley, Shropshire
Quote:
Quote:
To be fair to the K-series, if you put it together properly it is reliable. I helped my father fix up his MGF and the engine in that has been pretty much bombproof.
I worked with a petrol head who's also been a design engineer at championship winning F1 teams who REALLY rates the K-series... but shares a similar opinion, too many people work on them assuming "everything is normal" when you need to follow the manual and build/fix it right.
I've scrapped a couple of K series engines for liner problems, but only because a usable 2nd hand engine is cheaper than going into rebuilding the original at that level. I'm more than familiar with what is basically a "wet liner" engine from the TR4s of my apprentice days through hundreds of Renaults and other rubbish to the K.

Of all the several dozen K series head gaskets i've changed, i've never done one twice on the same car since the modified HG and steel dowels became available. Which means the basic design is sound and only the details let it down, typical BL really!

The head gasket problem kind of eclipses the other idiosyncasies of the K, like not being able to turn the crank over when the head bolts are out for fear of the main shells turning, the silly valve in the inlet manifold that stops the cooling system bleeding properly, and the nasty, cheap steel pipe that runs across the back of the block from the water pump/badly located thermostat housing which rots and pinholes into a HG killing leak that's not easy to find. But all others have said is true, once you understand it and how it's put together, it's a very impressive little engine!

I guess, at the end of the day, it's just not MY sort of engine, I prefer a big lazy torque monster to a buzzy revvy tiny engine that you have to row along on the gearbox. That and the fear that, though very strong, i'm not sure how up to forced induction this engine is, means, to quote the dragons, "i'm out!"

Steve

_________________
'73 2 door Toledo with Vauxhall Carlton 2.0 8v engine (The Carledo)
'78 Sprint Auto with Vauxhall Omega 2.2 16v engine (The Dolomega)
'72 Triumph 1500FWD in Slate Grey, Now with RWD and Carledo powertrain!

Maverick Triumph, Servicing, Repairs, Electrical, Recomissioning, MOT prep, Trackerjack brake fitting service.
Apprentice served Triumph Specialist for 50 years. PM for more info or quotes.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot [Bot], Google and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited