Electric Conversion

[Duncan]

Hi all,

I've looked around the forum in vain for any inkling of an electric conversion discussion; perhaps such things are considered blasphemous. Nevertheless, I come seeking advice/expertise on full electric conversions, dolly, triumph or otherwise, as I intend to revitalise my 1977 1300 with the life juice of the 21st century. I have had the car for about 3 years now, and have done a fair bit of work on her cosmetically and mechanically since she stopped running altogether about a year ago.
Ideally I would be interested in hiring someone with expertise to work with my dad and I on the car this summer - in person if possible; our address is KT10 0PP, Claygate, Surrey,
Is there any knowledge of anyone having attempted this procedure on a dolomite/toledo before?

Thanks,
Duncan
07954227577
duncan@tarboton.co.uk

[triumphdolomiteuk]

Eventually there will be more EVs on the road than petrol or diesel powered cars. When that tipping point is reached petrol or diesel will become more difficult to find - just as leaded four star and LRP became twenty-odd years ago. When that time comes when you simply cannot buy these fuels, classic cars will become museum pieces unless they've been converted to electric. There are specialist companies which will do the conversion. but at the moment it's very expensive to carry out. We can only hope that in time the cost comes down. This company states that prices start from £20K; https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

[mahony]

Eventually there will be more EVs on the road than petrol or diesel powered cars. When that tipping point is reached petrol or diesel will become more difficult to find - just as leaded four star and LRP became twenty-odd years ago. When that time comes when you simply cannot buy these fuels, classic cars will become museum pieces unless they've been converted to electric. There are specialist companies which will do the conversion. but at the moment it's very expensive to carry out. We can only hope that in time the cost comes down. This company states that prices start from £20K; https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

Wow starting from £20k , i think i would just buy a electric car to start off with, but it's your money so up to you

[sprint95m]

An interesting idea you have there Duncan.

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/foru ... 5v/page/3/
There is someone in Australia building an electric Spitfire.
This thread gives an idea of what is involved.

On the Quest TV channel there is a series of programmes detailing EV conversions carried out by a
specialist company in South Wales.


I rather expect that the conversion business will expand fairly quickly over the next few years
as I anticipate petrol will steadily increase in price as new petrol powered car sales decline.


Ian

[cleverusername]

From an economic point of view it makes little sense. The costs I am seeing are around 20K, roughly 16000 litres of petrol, which for a car averaging 30MPG, is around 100000 miles (someone check my maths). Now that may make sense if someone would give you 20K for an electric 1300 Dolly but I can't see that happening. Since your Dolly is already tax exempt and exempt for many congestion charges, not much benefit there.

So what will you get for your money? A nice looking but inferior electric car. It is possible that a conversion will match the performance of a modern electric car, that was design to be an electric car from the ground up but I doubt it. Take your battery packs, a Tesla has its heavy batteries mounted low down, under the floor, to keep the centre of gravity low. Not an option in your Dolly and it will be a struggle to fit in the same number of batteries as true electric, limiting range.

Then we get to braking and safety. I hope that such a conversion includes a brake upgrade, considering the performance of electrics but will those be regen brakes, like a true electric? Will the conversion use your original axle and gearbox, which will severely limit the performance advantages of going electric, as your 1300 setup would never be able to handle EV levels of torque without quickly going bang.

Look it is your car and you can do what you like but at current prices I am not convinced by electric conversions.

[tinweevil]

Have a look at zero ev on youtube for some idea of the work involved. To my thinking two things will tip the economics balance.
1. Solar power, lots of solar power. Once you have panels exceeding your domestic consumption in all but the peak you need somewhere to dump the spare electrons. The electricity supplies will buy it off you but the price they will pay, which is already poor, will fall further as more people get solar. So increasingly it will make more sense to store the excess locally and use it yourself later.
2. Car to grid charger setup. This allows a parked car to feed into your domestic supply when the sun isn't shining. With the right setup a car can be a powerwall that's occasionally unavailable. This means some return on investment while it's sitting in a garage doing nowt.

Design your ev conversion with these in mind and the economics are a little less one way.
Hope you go for it Duncan.

[Carledo]

I'm still not convinced that battery electric tech is advanced enough at this point in time to offer a practicable solution to discontinuing the use of fossil fuel power. Current battery EVs aren't very green either in terms of production and end of life disposal and during life, environmental impact depends on WHERE your electricity comes from, if it comes from a coal or gas fired power station, not much is gained!

The government want to stop the sale of all fossil fuel powered NEW cars by 2030 (highly optimistic, but still) This won't affect the 30,000,000 USED vehicles that are already on British roads. In fact, since very few people will be able to afford a new battery EV, most of which are currently over £30,000 apiece, WELL over for the best ones, I anticipate a considerable rise in used Petrol and Diesel values when you can no longer buy a new one! There will be a need to fuel all these remaining cars and trucks for some considerable time yet. I wouldn't be surprised if petrol is still in common use in 2050. So I'm not personaly bothered as I expect to be comfortably dead by then!

If you still want to investigate electric power for your classic then, there MAY have been advances in tech that will make it more affordable and more environmentally sound. But my money is on the hydrogen fuel cell being the power source of choice for vehicles in the 2050s and beyond, battery EV is just a temporary distraction till the boffins come up with something better!

Steve

[tinweevil]

It depends. A Tesla is certainly a viable vehicle and a model 3 is not expensive compared to a comparable fast family sized BMW or Audi. But a Tesla has everything designed to fit the available spaces. At the other extreme there's an Electric Classic Cars video of a beetle converted in a day. There you've got a large pile of ill fitting chunks of technology just plonked into every major space. You are left with no space anywhere for anything, even the rear seat goes. And the range - 80-90 miles. That by any standard is shite. OK not by any standard, compared to a bullshit hybrid plug-in fat b'stard over sized wank tank SUV it's brilliant. I don't like SUVs, can you tell?
Anyway, a paid for conversion is always going to be crap because the parts are not designed to fit the spaces and the cost of having stuff engineered to fit will be prohibitive. Duncan, if he does his research and makes his own battery packs to fit should be able to do rather better.
Range is always the issue that is banged on about but why do we need 500 mile ranges in this country? 98% of the time we don't. Most of our days driving are 40 miles or less. And it charges at home over night. s##t range in my old lpg volvo (just less than an MG5) was a right PITA because I had to find somewhere to fill it, then spend the time to go there and do it. And that was factory fit lpg not a conversion. With an ev your fuel station is at home so who cares, most of the time. Every morning like magic it will be full. For the occasional long drives I could just hire something or accept I'll have to stop more than I like.
As to where the power comes from change supplier if that's your concern. In fact you pretty much just need to change tariff these days as many traditional suppliers have zero emission plans. Or build a new garage with a solar roof. There really is no shortage of solutions to that aspect. As to manufacturing footprint there's plenty of research to show it's a non issue, google it. The lifecycle footprint is so massively lower the payback time is within the first year of average use. Most batteries get repurposed now but in the not too distant future recycling facilities will be needed.
All the time we insist on 500-600 mile ranges and a weekly to fortnightly fill then yeah, it doesn't work. There is still progress needed to cater for those with nowhere to charge at home. You'll always be able to find a use case where it doesn't work. But bit by bit more different use cases are coming within the ev envelope.

[cliftyhanger]

I am in a quandary with teh EV thing.
I am very tempted to get a leaf of suchlike (at sub £10K) as the vast majority of my trips are less that 20 miles, in fact less than 5. But no, I carry tools/materials before anybody suggests a bike.

However, I was doing (up until March last year) various trips of mabe 2-300 miles in a day. Oddly a few to collect car bits, but others visiting friends etc. And of course holidays where we would do up to 800miles in a day to get to destination, but lower daily mileage when there.
Lockdown may have skewed my view a bit, as longer trips are much much rarer. However, I have borrowed my BILs mondeo estate a few times when I needed to go any real distance (I did more miles in 3 trips than he did in total the rest of the previous 12 months)

Regarding my Triumphs, I like trackdays in my spitfire, but not certain how that will pan out long term. More importantly, we love touring (2 trips to Scotland planned this summer) plus the new Dolomite will be pressed into service, and get some proper use too. Especially once the sprint engine gets built/fitted (late summer is the plan for that)

And the idea is to get as much use out of our classics as possible until fossil fuels are no longer viable/affordable/whatever.

Will I eventually convert one/both to electric? at the moment doubtful, but I won't discount the idea totally. Conversions may become easier as a steady stream of second-user parts become available and knowledge of conversions grows.

But at the moment, I see it as an expensive option unless anybody has a burning desire to lead the way. And deep pockets. I understand that fiddling with electric vehicles can be rather dangerous, the voltages involved are certainly high enough to kill anybody who does not fully understand what they are doing.

[Carledo]

All the time we insist on 500-600 mile ranges and a weekly to fortnightly fill then yeah, it doesn't work. There is still progress needed to cater for those with nowhere to charge at home. You'll always be able to find a use case where it doesn't work. But bit by bit more different use cases are coming within the ev envelope.

i wouldn't mind living with a 250 mile range, I more or less do with the Carledo and it's titchy tank. But range is not an issue when you can refuel in minutes. Range will be an issue so long as charging time exceeds driving time. I know a few EVs (including Tesla) have a "quick charge" facility, but using it dramatically shortens battery life, "charge fast, die young" to coin a phrase. With the price of new batteries exceeding the probable value of the car they are going into, this isn't a good idea either!

There isn't a battery EV in the world that could do the RBRR (let alone a battery converted Dolomite) Yet over 100 40+ year old petrol cars do it every 2 years! A hydrogen fuel cell equipped Dolomite, given,as would be needed, a network of refuelling points equal to petrol stations today (here's a thought, why not USE redundant petrol stations) could do it easily!

But range and charge time aren't my only issues, there's also the fact that there aren't enough rare earth metals (the clue is in the name) to replace every vehicle now existing with a battery EV. Or enough infrastructure to charge them in the current national grid system of even first world countries. Or enough off road parking spaces that everyone can charge their EVs without a rats nest of cables on every street. Then the mining of said metals is an environmental disaster that is already happening. What about trucks and lorries which DO need a longer range? Or aircraft? BTW did you know that motorcycles are exempt from the "no fossil fueled vehicles to be sold after 2030" ruling? So battery electric motorcycles aren't really practical either!

I've said it before and I'll say it one more time now. Use offshore wind farms to generate power for the grid. At night when demand is lower, use the same wind farms to get hydrogen from seawater which is right there and effectively limitless. Ship the hydrogen in fuel cell powered tankers, just as petrol is shipped today in diesel ones, to sites that once sold petrol and distribute it on demand just as petrol is now. Your hydrogen fuel cell converts the hydrogen back into water (water vapour is the only emission) and powers your car to a range in currently available vehicles of around 350 miles and refilling takes minutes.

Aside from production of some infrastructure the whole process, once in action, has a virtually zero carbon footprint. This can ALL be done with technology available today, not pie in the sky! All that is lacking is the political will to make it happen and a bit more foresight on the part of the oil companies that own much of the required infrastructure already. You'd think they'd be looking for a way to survive when the planet is no longer burning huge quantities of oil!

Instead the whole world seems to have dived willingly down the blind alley rabbithole of battery EVs.

Steve

[sprint95m]

Somebody must be listening Steve!
A huge commercial hydrogen plant is being planned for Easter Ross.

Smaller scale production more locally is possible, Orkney Islands Council
are trialling exactly that, their diesel powered ferries are very polluting and expensive to run.
Also on Orkney, a company is developing a small hydrogen powered passenger plane.
Aberdeen has and is getting more hydrogen powered buses.

(In Shetland they are looking at following the Faroe Islands example by linking islands by tunnel,
thereby reducing costs and pollution from ferries).

Interesting times.



Ian

[cleverusername]

I'm still not convinced that battery electric tech is advanced enough at this point in time to offer a practicable solution to discontinuing the use of fossil fuel power. Current battery EVs aren't very green either in terms of production and end of life disposal and during life, environmental impact depends on WHERE your electricity comes from, if it comes from a coal or gas fired power station, not much is gained!

The government want to stop the sale of all fossil fuel powered NEW cars by 2030 (highly optimistic, but still) This won't affect the 30,000,000 USED vehicles that are already on British roads. In fact, since very few people will be able to afford a new battery EV, most of which are currently over £30,000 apiece, WELL over for the best ones, I anticipate a considerable rise in used Petrol and Diesel values when you can no longer buy a new one! There will be a need to fuel all these remaining cars and trucks for some considerable time yet. I wouldn't be surprised if petrol is still in common use in 2050. So I'm not personaly bothered as I expect to be comfortably dead by then!

If you still want to investigate electric power for your classic then, there MAY have been advances in tech that will make it more affordable and more environmentally sound. But my money is on the hydrogen fuel cell being the power source of choice for vehicles in the 2050s and beyond, battery EV is just a temporary distraction till the boffins come up with something better!

Steve

The problem isn't technological, we already have EVs with ranges two hundred miles plus and which frankly destroy most ICE cars in performance and refinement terms. For the UK at least, electricity isn't going to be a problem. We are world leaders in offshore wind and the new offshore wind power that is coming online should be able to provide the power for the switch.

The issue, as you have identified, is economic. The cost of EVs is simply too high, especially for someone like me who practices bangernomics. The other problem is the economics of infrastructure, for example we have been building housing estates with no off street parking and smaller roads. Which is not compatible with the charging requirements of EVs.

If the economic problems could be solved, I would buy an EV tomorrow. I love gadgets and have you ever seen a bog standard EV set off at a set of traffic lights? The performance is unreal. I saw the EV equivalent of bog standard eurobox humiliate an M5 at a set of lights. The BMW driver couldn't keep up and he absolutely floored it. The EV was several car lengths ahead by the time they reached the lane merging point the BMW driver was desperate to beat them to.

[Carledo]

I'm still not convinced that battery electric tech is advanced enough at this point in time to offer a practicable solution to discontinuing the use of fossil fuel power. Current battery EVs aren't very green either in terms of production and end of life disposal and during life, environmental impact depends on WHERE your electricity comes from, if it comes from a coal or gas fired power station, not much is gained!

The government want to stop the sale of all fossil fuel powered NEW cars by 2030 (highly optimistic, but still) This won't affect the 30,000,000 USED vehicles that are already on British roads. In fact, since very few people will be able to afford a new battery EV, most of which are currently over £30,000 apiece, WELL over for the best ones, I anticipate a considerable rise in used Petrol and Diesel values when you can no longer buy a new one! There will be a need to fuel all these remaining cars and trucks for some considerable time yet. I wouldn't be surprised if petrol is still in common use in 2050. So I'm not personaly bothered as I expect to be comfortably dead by then!

If you still want to investigate electric power for your classic then, there MAY have been advances in tech that will make it more affordable and more environmentally sound. But my money is on the hydrogen fuel cell being the power source of choice for vehicles in the 2050s and beyond, battery EV is just a temporary distraction till the boffins come up with something better!

Steve

The problem isn't technological, we already have EVs with ranges two hundred miles plus and which frankly destroy most ICE cars in performance and refinement terms. For the UK at least, electricity isn't going to be a problem. We are world leaders in offshore wind and the new offshore wind power that is coming online should be able to provide the power for the switch.

The issue, as you have identified, is economic. The cost of EVs is simply too high, especially for someone like me who practices bangernomics. The other problem is the economics of infrastructure, for example we have been building housing estates with no off street parking and smaller roads. Which is not compatible with the charging requirements of EVs.

If the economic problems could be solved, I would buy an EV tomorrow. I love gadgets and have you ever seen a bog standard EV set off at a set of traffic lights? The performance is unreal. I saw the EV equivalent of bog standard eurobox humiliate an M5 at a set of lights. The BMW driver couldn't keep up and he absolutely floored it. The EV was several car lengths ahead by the time they reached the lane merging point the BMW driver was desperate to beat them to.

Yes, EVs accelerate astonishingly well, but that's it! A one trick pony! they are too heavy to handle well and have no engine braking to help them with balance. I've driven a couple (with my hood up and shades on) and I wasn't impressed. And, like I say, you are missing the point. Hydrogen fuel cell is SO much better AND more sustainable than battery EV that there really is no contest. At the end of the day, sustainability is the watchword. Lithium mining on the necessary scale is NOT sustainable, so Li-ion batteries as a power source are inevitably doomed. I'll grant that city taxis and such might benefit from battery vehicles, but their usefulness begins and ends there. Besides, A fuel cell car still has an electric motor, so will still take off like s**t off a greasy shovel! It just won't be lugging a ton of batteries around doing it!

Steve

[SprintV8]

I'm still not convinced that battery electric tech is advanced enough at this point in time to offer a practicable solution to discontinuing the use of fossil fuel power. Current battery EVs aren't very green either in terms of production and end of life disposal and during life, environmental impact depends on WHERE your electricity comes from, if it comes from a coal or gas fired power station, not much is gained!

The government want to stop the sale of all fossil fuel powered NEW cars by 2030 (highly optimistic, but still) This won't affect the 30,000,000 USED vehicles that are already on British roads. In fact, since very few people will be able to afford a new battery EV, most of which are currently over £30,000 apiece, WELL over for the best ones, I anticipate a considerable rise in used Petrol and Diesel values when you can no longer buy a new one! There will be a need to fuel all these remaining cars and trucks for some considerable time yet. I wouldn't be surprised if petrol is still in common use in 2050. So I'm not personaly bothered as I expect to be comfortably dead by then!

If you still want to investigate electric power for your classic then, there MAY have been advances in tech that will make it more affordable and more environmentally sound. But my money is on the hydrogen fuel cell being the power source of choice for vehicles in the 2050s and beyond, battery EV is just a temporary distraction till the boffins come up with something better!

Steve

The problem isn't technological, we already have EVs with ranges two hundred miles plus and which frankly destroy most ICE cars in performance and refinement terms. For the UK at least, electricity isn't going to be a problem. We are world leaders in offshore wind and the new offshore wind power that is coming online should be able to provide the power for the switch.

The issue, as you have identified, is economic. The cost of EVs is simply too high, especially for someone like me who practices bangernomics. The other problem is the economics of infrastructure, for example we have been building housing estates with no off street parking and smaller roads. Which is not compatible with the charging requirements of EVs.

If the economic problems could be solved, I would buy an EV tomorrow. I love gadgets and have you ever seen a bog standard EV set off at a set of traffic lights? The performance is unreal. I saw the EV equivalent of bog standard eurobox humiliate an M5 at a set of lights. The BMW driver couldn't keep up and he absolutely floored it. The EV was several car lengths ahead by the time they reached the lane merging point the BMW driver was desperate to beat them to.

Yes, EVs accelerate astonishingly well, but that's it! A one trick pony! they are too heavy to handle well and have no engine braking to help them with balance. I've driven a couple (with my hood up and shades on) and I wasn't impressed. And, like I say, you are missing the point. Hydrogen fuel cell is SO much better AND more sustainable than battery EV that there really is no contest. At the end of the day, sustainability is the watchword. Lithium mining on the necessary scale is NOT sustainable, so Li-ion batteries as a power source are inevitably doomed. I'll grant that city taxis and such might benefit from battery vehicles, but their usefulness begins and ends there. Besides, A fuel cell car still has an electric motor, so will still take off like s**t off a greasy shovel! It just won't be lugging a ton of batteries around doing it!

Steve

How many Hydrogen filling stations are in the UK.
You can count them on two hands and one toe.

I think Electric Vehicles are the way forward but the info structure is #### poor.
Normal Technicians/Mechanics unless passed a EV course/Exam can not legally work on the High Voltage side of a Electric Vehicle.
Most EV need a full lift and can not be flat towed.
Charging stations are a joke
I went round 5 charging stations to charge a members car luckily the sixth one worked.
It appears when the Charge Station goes offline the vehicle can be charged for free.
So they simply switch the Charge Station off.

[cleverusername]

I'm still not convinced that battery electric tech is advanced enough at this point in time to offer a practicable solution to discontinuing the use of fossil fuel power. Current battery EVs aren't very green either in terms of production and end of life disposal and during life, environmental impact depends on WHERE your electricity comes from, if it comes from a coal or gas fired power station, not much is gained!

The government want to stop the sale of all fossil fuel powered NEW cars by 2030 (highly optimistic, but still) This won't affect the 30,000,000 USED vehicles that are already on British roads. In fact, since very few people will be able to afford a new battery EV, most of which are currently over £30,000 apiece, WELL over for the best ones, I anticipate a considerable rise in used Petrol and Diesel values when you can no longer buy a new one! There will be a need to fuel all these remaining cars and trucks for some considerable time yet. I wouldn't be surprised if petrol is still in common use in 2050. So I'm not personaly bothered as I expect to be comfortably dead by then!

If you still want to investigate electric power for your classic then, there MAY have been advances in tech that will make it more affordable and more environmentally sound. But my money is on the hydrogen fuel cell being the power source of choice for vehicles in the 2050s and beyond, battery EV is just a temporary distraction till the boffins come up with something better!

Steve

The problem isn't technological, we already have EVs with ranges two hundred miles plus and which frankly destroy most ICE cars in performance and refinement terms. For the UK at least, electricity isn't going to be a problem. We are world leaders in offshore wind and the new offshore wind power that is coming online should be able to provide the power for the switch.

The issue, as you have identified, is economic. The cost of EVs is simply too high, especially for someone like me who practices bangernomics. The other problem is the economics of infrastructure, for example we have been building housing estates with no off street parking and smaller roads. Which is not compatible with the charging requirements of EVs.

If the economic problems could be solved, I would buy an EV tomorrow. I love gadgets and have you ever seen a bog standard EV set off at a set of traffic lights? The performance is unreal. I saw the EV equivalent of bog standard eurobox humiliate an M5 at a set of lights. The BMW driver couldn't keep up and he absolutely floored it. The EV was several car lengths ahead by the time they reached the lane merging point the BMW driver was desperate to beat them to.

Yes, EVs accelerate astonishingly well, but that's it! A one trick pony! they are too heavy to handle well and have no engine braking to help them with balance. I've driven a couple (with my hood up and shades on) and I wasn't impressed. And, like I say, you are missing the point. Hydrogen fuel cell is SO much better AND more sustainable than battery EV that there really is no contest. At the end of the day, sustainability is the watchword. Lithium mining on the necessary scale is NOT sustainable, so Li-ion batteries as a power source are inevitably doomed. I'll grant that city taxis and such might benefit from battery vehicles, but their usefulness begins and ends there. Besides, A fuel cell car still has an electric motor, so will still take off like s**t off a greasy shovel! It just won't be lugging a ton of batteries around doing it!

Steve

In the real world acceleration is what matters, you need performance for overtaking and getting upto speed with stop start/driving. The weight problem shouldn't be an issue because you can mount the batteries in the floor and spread the weight out. Giving a nice low centre of gravity and even weight distribution.

Hydrogen is a non-starter, the government isn't going to fund a hydrogen infrastructure, while battery EVs are constantly improving and dropping in price.