Overdrive swap into early Toledo

[Bunji]

Has anyone done this in an early Toledo 1300. If so, were you happy with the outcome? What are the pros/cons and any pitfalls?

[cliftyhanger]

I have fitted overdrive to several cars. My Toledo came with it fitted.
It makes the car far more pleasant at cruising speeds, effectively adding a 5th gear.
The only downside is the cost and effort of fitting,

[cleverusername]

The only downside is the cost but it is a big downside. Mine cost £300 and the current ones on ebay they are asking 600-800 for boxes of unknown condition. The brothers want that much for the box only, though their's are recondition. That is without other bits like the cross member to support the box.

This is for a box which is 40 years old minimum and might be worn. Mine has a knackered layshft bearing which I keep meaning to get round to fixing.

It is a nice conversion but it is also a lot of money, especially if you don't know the condition of the box. The advantage you have with that 1300, is it might be noisy at speed but it is less likely to go bang than a 1500, if you rev it hard for a long motorway drive.

I wonder if anyone has managed to fit a more modern 5 speed box to a Triumph 1300? Surely somebody had done it with a Spitfire? The obvious one would be from an MX5. Designed for rear wheel drive, 5 speed and you can pick them up for less than £50. Though it is so obvious I suspect there is some reason it wouldn't work.

[sprint95m]

Surely somebody had done it with a Spitfire?

Yes, Ford type 9 from a four cylinder petrol Sierra. Canley classics sell the necessary components
for small chassis cars.

However, former TDC chairman Martin Bellinger tried on a Dolomite 1300 without success.
Sorry, don’t know what the problem was.

Pity really, as the Ford gearboxes offers some advantages.


Ian

[Carledo]

For ease of conversion, the gearbox to use is that from the Spitfire mk III complete with it's D type overdrive unit. This box has the correct spline to fit your existing clutch and is the closest possible match. I acknowledge that finding one won't be easy OR cheap but it's the best fit both physically and for having ratios to suit the engine. You will probably need to get a 1500HL O/D gearbox crossmember and you will almost certainly need the propshaft shortening by a specialist as there is no O/D prop for a Toledo, period! Though a 1500HL O/D prop is probably close in overall length there are differences which I personally find undesirable, ie the sliding joint on the 1500 prop is at the front which puts un-necessary strain on the centre bearing.

That's the easiest option and the most "factory" style one. I know the Ford type 9 is popular and is possible to fit to almost all the small chassis cars, even the 6 cylinder ones, but unless you spend a lot getting the internals changed out, the stock ratios don't really suit the engine.

I've only driven one type 9 fitted Dolomite, it was Ian's 1850 and with no criticism of Ian implied or intended, I found it pretty unpleasant to work with, the ratios seemed badly chosen, 5th was way too short and the whole shift felt wooly and vague, not the rifle bolt action you expect of a Ford box. For me, the big problem of putting the type 9 or the MX5 box in a Dolomite is the position the gear lever ends up in, as both boxes are quite long and not easy to shorten the shift linkage.

The cheap(er) way to lengthen it's legs for better motorway cruising is to fit a taller diff, either a 3.89 or (possibly with a few suitable power upgrades) a 3.63. It's not so comprehensively effective as fitting the O/D box, you'll lose a tad of low range acceleration in exchange for a less frantic motor at motorway speeds, but it costs considerably less and can be swapped out by any half competent amateur in a couple of hours.

Steve

[Bunji]

The only downside is the cost but it is a big downside. Mine cost £300 and the current ones on ebay they are asking 600-800 for boxes of unknown condition. The brothers want that much for the box only, though their's are recondition. That is without other bits like the cross member to support the box.

This is for a box which is 40 years old minimum and might be worn. Mine has a knackered layshft bearing which I keep meaning to get round to fixing.

It is a nice conversion but it is also a lot of money, especially if you don't know the condition of the box. The advantage you have with that 1300, is it might be noisy at speed but it is less likely to go bang than a 1500, if you rev it hard for a long motorway drive.

I wonder if anyone has managed to fit a more modern 5 speed box to a Triumph 1300? Surely somebody had done it with a Spitfire? The obvious one would be from an MX5. Designed for rear wheel drive, 5 speed and you can pick them up for less than £50. Though it is so obvious I suspect there is some reason it wouldn't work.

I'm down in NZ as well, which makes sourcing an OD box more $$ (unless I can find a reliable one locally). From looking online, I see that a Ford T9 5 speed out of a Sierra comes up as a potential option. Would be curious to hear if anyone has actually done this. Sierras were sold in NZ, and seems a few wrecked ones are still around. There is a company importing used T9's from the UK, but I can't justify $2,000 NZD just for the box

[Bunji]

Sorry, missed the last 2 comments covering the Ford T9.

Thinking now I might look to diff ratios as an option. Not too worried about losing low down acceleration.

[Bunji]

Sorry, missed the last 2 comments covering the Ford T9.

Thinking now I might look to diff ratios as an option. Not too worried about losing low down acceleration.

[Bunji]

For ease of conversion, the gearbox to use is that from the Spitfire mk III complete with it's D type overdrive unit. This box has the correct spline to fit your existing clutch and is the closest possible match. I acknowledge that finding one won't be easy OR cheap but it's the best fit both physically and for having ratios to suit the engine. You will probably need to get a 1500HL O/D gearbox crossmember and you will almost certainly need the propshaft shortening by a specialist as there is no O/D prop for a Toledo, period! Though a 1500HL O/D prop is probably close in overall length there are differences which I personally find undesirable, ie the sliding joint on the 1500 prop is at the front which puts un-necessary strain on the centre bearing.

That's the easiest option and the most "factory" style one. I know the Ford type 9 is popular and is possible to fit to almost all the small chassis cars, even the 6 cylinder ones, but unless you spend a lot getting the internals changed out, the stock ratios don't really suit the engine.

I've only driven one type 9 fitted Dolomite, it was Ian's 1850 and with no criticism of Ian implied or intended, I found it pretty unpleasant to work with, the ratios seemed badly chosen, 5th was way too short and the whole shift felt wooly and vague, not the rifle bolt action you expect of a Ford box. For me, the big problem of putting the type 9 or the MX5 box in a Dolomite is the position the gear lever ends up in, as both boxes are quite long and not easy to shorten the shift linkage.

The cheap(er) way to lengthen it's legs for better motorway cruising is to fit a taller diff, either a 3.89 or (possibly with a few suitable power upgrades) a 3.63. It's not so comprehensively effective as fitting the O/D box, you'll lose a tad of low range acceleration in exchange for a less frantic motor at motorway speeds, but it costs considerably less and can be swapped out by any half competent amateur in a couple of hours.

Steve

When I purchased the car, it came with a spare diff supposedly from a 1500 Toledo. I'm unsure of how to tell what the ratios are though, any tips?

[DoloWIGHTY]

Unless you are overseas to have a diff from a Toledo 1500 would be very rare indeed as it was not available in the UK.

The number should be stamped into the casing on the underside:

DG is a Toledo 1300

DN is a Toledo 1500

[sprint95m]

5th was way too short

A curious observation Steve, given that it is a comparable to the overdrive on an 1850 gearbox?
Gearing was 22mph/1000 rpm which equates to about 2750rpm for 60mph.

I think with a Sprint diff this is increased to 23mph/1000rpm.
Another option is a 3.27:1 diff from an 1850 auto. Probably good for motorway use
but rather cumbersome for town driving or hilly routes I expect?


It is my intention to try another T9 conversion, this time with a Capri 2.8 box
instead of the Sierra diesel version. It has a taller first gear so not as handy
for hill starts when a laden trailer is attached.



Anyhow, if it was up to me, I would think long and hard about changing the diff ratio in a Toledo
given its low power. I can remember speaking to participants of a Club Triumph round Britain run
who had found the long climbs very challenging for their Toledo……


Thanks
Ian

[Bunji]

Unless you are overseas to have a diff from a Toledo 1500 would be very rare indeed as it was not available in the UK.

The number should be stamped into the casing on the underside:

DG is a Toledo 1300

DN is a Toledo 1500

Yes, I'm in NZ. Have counted the teeth on the spare diff, and it's a 3.89.

[Carledo]

5th was way too short

A curious observation Steve, given that it is a comparable to the overdrive on an 1850 gearbox?
Gearing was 22mph/1000 rpm which equates to about 2750rpm for 60mph.


Anyhow, if it was up to me, I would think long and hard about changing the diff ratio in a Toledo
given its low power. I can remember speaking to participants of a Club Triumph round Britain run
who had found the long climbs very challenging for their Toledo……


Thanks
Ian

To be fair Ian, it was only an impression gained from a few miles of test driving on our local Shropshire roads.

And that impression may have been coloured by my long use of the Carledo which has something like an 0.7 5th gear ratio, a Sprint 3.45 axle and 15" rims which gives it 80mph @ 3200 RPM, something which would indubitably have made yours FEEL undergeared by comparison!

I don't think swapping the diff from a 4.11 standard Toledo ratio to the standard (early) 1500 ratio of 3.89, a difference of only 0.22, would be too much for the 64bhp Toledo stock motor to cope with unmodified. The Spit III produced, IIRC, around 74bhp and the 1500 Spit (again from memory) I think around 84bhp and pulled a 3.63 AND overdrive. Surely a slightly lighter body, but not as much as you'd think with the separate chassis. So a few extra horses would be advantageous but not strictly essential for the first stage upgrade.

It would also appear that the OP already has a 3.89 available so he can try it himself for the cost of a few gaskets, a couple of pints of oil and a couple of hours work! Sounds like a no brainer to me!

Steve

[Bunji]

5th was way too short

A curious observation Steve, given that it is a comparable to the overdrive on an 1850 gearbox?
Gearing was 22mph/1000 rpm which equates to about 2750rpm for 60mph.


Anyhow, if it was up to me, I would think long and hard about changing the diff ratio in a Toledo
given its low power. I can remember speaking to participants of a Club Triumph round Britain run
who had found the long climbs very challenging for their Toledo……


Thanks
Ian

To be fair Ian, it was only an impression gained from a few miles of test driving on our local Shropshire roads.

And that impression may have been coloured by my long use of the Carledo which has something like an 0.7 5th gear ratio, a Sprint 3.45 axle and 15" rims which gives it 80mph @ 3200 RPM, something which would indubitably have made yours FEEL undergeared by comparison!

I don't think swapping the diff from a 4.11 standard Toledo ratio to the standard (early) 1500 ratio of 3.89, a difference of only 0.22, would be too much for the 64bhp Toledo stock motor to cope with unmodified. The Spit III produced, IIRC, around 74bhp and the 1500 Spit (again from memory) I think around 84bhp and pulled a 3.63 AND overdrive. Surely a slightly lighter body, but not as much as you'd think with the separate chassis. So a few extra horses would be advantageous but not strictly essential for the first stage upgrade.

It would also appear that the OP already has a 3.89 available so he can try it himself for the cost of a few gaskets, a couple of pints of oil and a couple of hours work! Sounds like a no brainer to me!

Steve

Hi Steve, what gaskets are required?

[Carledo]

A curious observation Steve, given that it is a comparable to the overdrive on an 1850 gearbox?
Gearing was 22mph/1000 rpm which equates to about 2750rpm for 60mph.


Anyhow, if it was up to me, I would think long and hard about changing the diff ratio in a Toledo
given its low power. I can remember speaking to participants of a Club Triumph round Britain run
who had found the long climbs very challenging for their Toledo……


Thanks
Ian

To be fair Ian, it was only an impression gained from a few miles of test driving on our local Shropshire roads.

And that impression may have been coloured by my long use of the Carledo which has something like an 0.7 5th gear ratio, a Sprint 3.45 axle and 15" rims which gives it 80mph @ 3200 RPM, something which would indubitably have made yours FEEL undergeared by comparison!

I don't think swapping the diff from a 4.11 standard Toledo ratio to the standard (early) 1500 ratio of 3.89, a difference of only 0.22, would be too much for the 64bhp Toledo stock motor to cope with unmodified. The Spit III produced, IIRC, around 74bhp and the 1500 Spit (again from memory) I think around 84bhp and pulled a 3.63 AND overdrive. Surely a slightly lighter body, but not as much as you'd think with the separate chassis. So a few extra horses would be advantageous but not strictly essential for the first stage upgrade.

It would also appear that the OP already has a 3.89 available so he can try it himself for the cost of a few gaskets, a couple of pints of oil and a couple of hours work! Sounds like a no brainer to me!

Steve

Hi Steve, what gaskets are required?

You will need a diff housing gasket and, I think, 2 or maybe 4 brake backplate gaskets. I seem to have temporarily misplaced my Toledo parts book! If I find it anytime soon i'll check this and give you part numbers!

Steve