Gearbox woes (or are they?!)

[AlanH]

My 1969 13/60 did not have synchro on first gear, I changed it for a Spitfire box.

Canleys do a rebush kit at a reasonable price (looks like it's out of stock but they got me one fairly quickly).

http://www.canleyclassics.com

Part No. 519770

[grifterkid]

I don't know what type of gearbox my Toledo has but it does have the reverse up and over to the right (next to 3rd) if that helps identify it?!

Strangely my gearbox tunnel is Vermillion rather than Carmine suggesting something has been changed in the past perhaps? I really cannot see why the gearbox would have needed replacing though as my Toledo has only done just under 60,000 miles...

I think I just need to get it looked at to see what (if any) the problems are.

[Jon Tilson]

That's a single rail box then. Could well have been changed.

Drop round and I'll give you a run down of what's wrong and how to sort it.

Jonners

[cliftyhanger]

Triumph boxes had very limited lives. Back in the day I had a 6 year old dolly se, and they had 2 replacement boxes by the time it had done 50k, generally they reckoned 40k before a rebuild. Guess we take a bit more care of them.

If a non od box is worn, you should be able to get a good used one for not a lot. I gave one away recently.....

Just for the record, all heralds, spit 1-3 and vit 1600 had no synchro on first.
AFAIK all Dolly's and derivatives did have 4 synchro boxes.

[grifterkid]

I'm a bit gutted that it appears my Toledo doesn't have its original gearbox, oh well never mind...!!!

How on Earth did they have such limited lives?! I thought that engineers would have aimed for 100,000 miles for a fairly 'major' component? Maybe the cars we love just weren't considered for that kind of mileage when they were designed and built?!

Oh well, I shall have to have my box of cogs investigated (the list of things to attend to just seems to keep on growing!!!)...

[sprint95m]

Strangely my gearbox tunnel is Vermillion rather than Carmine

I have never seen a body coloured gearbox tunnel in a Dolomite.
Looking at the 1975 sales brochure makes me think your car would have had the single rail box when new .





Ian.

[cliftyhanger]

How on Earth did they have such limited lives?! I thought that engineers would have aimed for 100,000 miles for a fairly 'major' component? Maybe the cars we love just weren't considered for that kind of mileage when they were designed and built?!

the older 3 rail box was largely the same as fitted to standard 8/10 models in the 1950's, with small low power engines. And that is basically the same box fitted to GT6/vitesse too.
single rail box is a tiny bit stronger, but not great. The only strong box is the 2000/tr/sprint/stag box, even then the stag was uprated.
And of course the LT77 as fitted to TR7 and RV8 cars.

triumph had hopeless boxes/diffs compared to ford......

[grifterkid]

triumph had hopeless boxes/diffs compared to ford......

I suppose it didn't help that Triumph had such a tiny amount of money to spend on development with regards to the feeble gearbox and diff situation...?!

I have never seen a body coloured gearbox tunnel in a Dolomite.

Are the gearbox tunnels usually unpainted then?! I would have thought they would've been in the cars body-colour? As I say, mine is Vermillion in colour (my car is Carmine) so I cannot think of any other reason it being that colour unless the gearbox was changed and another gearbox tunnel had to be fitted. I hope it hasn't been changed as I'd like it all to be 'as-built'...!

[DoloWIGHTY]

Personally I still think you have nothing to worry about, I would change the gearbox when it simply stops working...but hey, what do I know....

Transmission tunnel colour you ask?

Here you go...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10739&hilit=transmi ... nel+colour

[grifterkid]

You know more than me DoloWIGHTY...

When my car gets its next service I'll ask them to have a peek at my gearbox and see what they say. I can still get all my gears so I'm happy with that for now

[re5rotary]

Hi think you will find a bit of a 'snick' or a graunch when changing down to first whilst moving is a characteristic of these gearboxes. The 1/2nd hub that has reverse gear on the outside of it can pick up the reverse idler as it engages first and this is what you hear and feel. Its part of the design and just how they are. regards Terry

[Jon Tilson]

What utter crap....

Ford boxes of the era are no better than Triumph equivalents. I've driven several dolomites with mileages well past the 80 k mark with original boxes and they all work fine.

The 3 rail box is maybe a bit marginal behind a TR7 lump but even so with the right bearings it does the job, The one in mine is now on about 40 k miles in ERO and whatever
it did in the car Alun broke it from,

My dad had a succssion of mk2 and 3 Tinas back in the day as a rep. Most went back with nosiy layshaft bearings at the end of 3 years....and they only had to cope with a cross flow of 75 bhp.
The dolly puts out 90-100...

The single rail box is the same internally. With uprated bearings it copes fine with a tr7 engine

I just blame the drivers...or more lilley the rubbish rebuilders who use cheap/wrong bits.

Jonners

[AlanH]

I just blame the drivers...or more lilley the rubbish rebuilders who use cheap/wrong bits.

I think that part of the problem is that some parts are getting hard to find and some reconditioned boxes use 'good bits' from doner boxes. I've got a really nice one, which is maybe why there is a type D overdrive box sitting on the rack at the back of my garage.( plus the fact that I can't be @rsed to sort out the prop etc, or maybe also that I'm in the middle of trying to sort out this Dolly that has has been abused for the last 30 years).

[cliftyhanger]

My comment came from a triumph dealer, about 1986 IIRC. It was a pukka service mechanic. I can't argue with him, but agree some of the cars have boxes that last a very long time, so probably does depend on the driver.
I know one chappie who managed to break a gearbox every 2-3 events doing autosolos, luckily he used non od boxes (more efficient, the od saps a few bhp) and very cheap or free. Conversely I have mentioned a good friend who has put a large mileage on a box thet he built for his spitfire, that really ought to be terrible. He used a gt6 od box, machined the mainshaft and made PB bushes to replace a few bearings. Then cut the input shaft off and welded on a spitfire end. However, he does know what he is doing.
He has built gearboxes and diffs fore a few locals, and avoids using new parts as they are so variable in quality. Good used synchros, bearings etc and especially layshaft pins. This is after an experience of being supplied a brand new layshaft from one of the big suppliers, wore out in about 5 miles. No hardening. Supplier offered to replace the pin, which was declined so a refund had, and he fitted a good used one. Never looked back.

Yes, the problem is largely rubbish parts. New synchros are often poor (I found a brand new original this morning in the loft, still in its bag....) and I suspect rebuilders may often use cheaper bearing options. My advice is to always find a good builder, and supply a spare known good box. That is for OD boxes anyway, non od as I have said is usually the case of finding a good used one.

[sprint95m]

What utter crap....
Ford boxes of the era are no better than Triumph equivalents.

There were a few different Ford gearboxes, the 2 litre Cortina version was very long lived and remains a popular choice
for rally/autocross because of its inherent strength. It can be fitted in place of the 1.6 gearbox even though the clutch plates are different
(because of the splines) l so the solution is to use a Hillman Hunter plate with Ford 1.6 cover and release bearing.
The gear change and gear ratio spacing is better than any Triumph.

Ford diffs are both strong and long lived. Serious wear was invariably because the owner had neglected to maintain the correct oil level.
You only have to look at some of the engine choices in kit cars (Chevy V8 for instance) for an idea of how strong Ford diffs are......



(Not really of our era but the Ford type 9 box is greatly improved by using semi synthetic 75/90 oil...)




Ian.