The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

No copper for brakelines.

Jeroen

soe8m wrote:No copper for brakelines.

Jeroen

Say whaaaat?!!!

Steve

The only downside for copper on brakelines is that the copper can seize to the fittings in a short time and if changing a wheel cylinder and you need to undo the pipe from the cylinder it can grip the pipe and twist it. If that is what the cryptic message implied i have explained it for those non mind readers. I always use cunifer for brake pipe for that reason only. Pressure wise there isnt a problem with either material

Tony

Copper work hardens over time with vibration/heat/stretching and then easily fractures.

Yes but properly clipped in it shouldnt vibrate and move enough to work harden. Ive never seen a fractured copper line in 35 years of car stuff.

Tony

tony g wrote:Yes but properly clipped in it shouldn't vibrate and move enough to work harden. Ive never seen a fractured copper line in 35 years of car stuff.

Tony

Nor me, in even longer!

Steve

It does already twist when fitting. Copper is fine in electrical wires.

Jeroen

Do you have proof of a failure? If so I'd like to see it

Tony

I should think 90% of classic cars in Britain have copper or Kunifer brake pipes fitted (the ones that don't have rod or cable brakes) and a smaller but still significant percentage of more modern cars. I certainly ALWAYS replace rotted steel pipes with copper, as does every other British mechanic I know. If there was any problem with the practice, I'm sure it would have been publicised and something done to stop it!

I don't know what rules pertain in Holland, but in Britain, copper rules!

Steve

Steve, kunifer is fine for brake lining but copper too soft. When tightening a copper brake line it does twist. Taking it off after some time it twists again and sometimes break. Some like the twist and refit again but those are not reliable linings anymore after so much retwist. But when a material used for brake linings does twist from new during tightening then that material is not suitable. No matter how often it's used in the past. The proof would be a oildrum full with broken copper linings from the past years. Kunifer will not twist and is much harder to bend what proves to be a more suitable material. The crimped ends stay in shape and are not distorted like copper after tightening once.

But in your country there is on ebay and more companies inferior kunifer to buy. It is the shiny kunifer with too much copper and is too soft also. It's the 2gbp the meter kunifer. The 6 gbp the meter dark matt kunifer is what you have to use. The lining that does break the cheap flaring tools and needs proper flaring tools. Then you have linings that last.

If you really need to use copper then do not re-use. One fit and replacing an hose in the future then also the copper tube again.

Fit what you like.

Jeroen

I replaced all my corroded pipes with copper. They are fine. Maybe corroded pipes are safer than new copper pipes? I dont think so.
Anyone that uses kunifer and creates the flares with a £15 diy/home/hobbyists flaring tool is putting themselves in more jeopardy than those that have used copper.
Here is my reasoning:
As copper is more malleable than kunifer, imperfectly formed flares are negated when the joint is assembled and compressed. Copper lines strictly should be 1 time use only as after 1 use the flare has deformed, as well as the twisting occurring that Jeroen has highlighted. Any fatigue caused by flexing, vibration and contact with any moving parts can be avoided by fitting the lines correctly. Kunifer is no less susceptable to fatigue than copper, potentially it is more susceptable as it is harder.
Some may argue that kunifer is more robust if for example you drive over a rock and the pipe is struck. I'd say that is an exception not an everyday occurrence even on Surrey's 3rd world roads.
So if I had a proper hydraulic flaring tool I might have used kunifer but it is not cost effective to spend a couple of hundred quid to on a tool I will use maybe once every 5 years. I guess I could have got ready made pipes but I didn't as I can make my own from copper.

That's why i said fit what you* like as i really don't care what brakelines you want to fit under your* own car.

The statement of kunifer being more suspectable to fatigue than copper is wrong. An original steel lining should be very suspectable to fatigue because that is even harder.

The way you think about i cannot make a good brake lining with my tool so i buy lining that suits my tool i personally think is thinking the wrong way round. It would be no excuse. I can talk easily because i do have the tools and if i do not have the right tools i know someone who does but you can do also. Buy the lining, cut to lenght, fit the unions and have at a local garage the ends flared. Should take no more than 15 minutes to do all the cars linings to flare for a mechanic if you have the lenght and unions already on. Then you* should have decent brakelinings and not ones who twist and flare when fitting.

Google on copper brakelinings and this is the first of hundreds of posts that come up.

http://www.mmoc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=34283

If you* want to fit copper then that is fine. I'm sticking to facts and my own experience of 20 years daily in classic cars from over the world and repaired over the world before. That story from the other forum link is very not new to me. It's your* car and your* money and only my advice to you.

*(you as people in common and not personal as Karlos) (people in common as all the people in the world not only dolomite owners.)

Jeroen

I have 2 flaring tools, a big professional vice mounted Sykes Pickavent job that I use mostly and a small hand held one that I only use to make joints in long pipes where only a tiny bit has failed. This necessitates flaring the original steel pipes which my handheld copes with perfectly, if used with care. I do have to throw out a few copper pipes that have frozen and twisted on removal, but I couldn't fill a small bin with them from 40+ years worth of this job. And i've NEVER had one fail in service - which is much more than I can say for steel pipes in salty road England!

Steve

Thanks for the advice Jeroen. I shall stick with copper for now though.

Straying way off topic I know...
I just read the article from the geezer in the MMOC. The guy who's brake pipe failed went out a few days later and the trunion on the front hub failed. In his picture of the failed trunion/hub there is a manky rusted bit of what looks like steel pipe onto his brake cylinder. After all his spouting about evil dangerous copper, he still has a rusty pipe on the front brakes and worn out trunions. I wonder if he just replaced the failed trunion and not all of them-same as he didn't bother to check the rest of his brake pipes?