The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

xvivalve wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:09 am The popularity of these aluminium radiators puzzles me.

Whilst they have now been tested in various cars and can be seen to ‘work’ there seem to be several variables over the standard:

* They are made from a less efficient material in terms of SHC
* We don’t actually know how their capacity compares to standard (though this could easily be tested)
* We don’t know how the fin and tube areas compare
* The colour is less efficient for purposes of radiation (though the term ‘radiator’ is actually misleading)
* My experience of aluminium radiators in ‘modern’ cars is they have a far shorter life than copper/brass before oxidation takes its toll on the fins.

Having been to where they are made, and now knowing how they are made and from what components, and having held discussions with them about how they might make fuel tanks for ‘us’, I’m fairly certain there has been no ‘engineering’ involved.

I can get a standard Sprint radiator recored with the correct matrix for about £100, yet the alicool version is £250.

Can someone explain their appeal to me please, and why they are considered to be an ‘upgrade’?

Main benefits are:

1) Weight (they are much lighter) - not always important to classic owners I agree but on new cars or race cars weight is an issue

2) Aluminium is stronger so the tubes can be made larger than copper/brass which can increase the surface area with the cooling fins.

3) A typical Sprint radiator features 3 rows of thin tubes which is good for surface area but actually not very good for efficient transfer of heat from the radiator to the air. Think about air coming through the radiator. The air hits the first row fine but then transfers some of the heat to the air which then hits the 2nd and 3rd rows. From a design perspective this is not very efficient due to poor airflow. A standard viscous fan doesn't help in traffic as it just wafts hot engine bay air at your radiator.

4) In a modern car the aluminium material helps the vehicle to reach operating temperature more quickly.

In a nutshell an aluminium radiator is typically more efficient for it's given size and weight, stronger and better is higher pressure systems than copper/brass. This despite being a poorer material from a thermal point of view.

Also don't forget you can always paint your aluminium radiator black which is what I've done.

The popularity of these aluminium radiators puzzles me.

Whilst they have now been tested in various cars and can be seen to ‘work’ there seem to be several variables over the standard:

* They are made from a less efficient material in terms of SHC
* We don’t actually know how their capacity compares to standard (though this could easily be tested)
* We don’t know how the fin and tube areas compare
* The colour is less efficient for purposes of radiation (though the term ‘radiator’ is actually misleading)
* My experience of aluminium radiators in ‘modern’ cars is they have a far shorter life than copper/brass before oxidation takes its toll on the fins.

Having been to where they are made, and now knowing how they are made and from what components, and having held discussions with them about how they might make fuel tanks for ‘us’, I’m fairly certain there has been no ‘engineering’ involved.

I can get a standard Sprint radiator recored with the correct matrix for about £100, yet the alicool version is £250.

Can someone explain their appeal to me please, and why they are considered to be an ‘upgrade’?

I believe that there is nothing wrong with a Sprint/slant cooling system as long as it is properly maintained. I have never had a problem with any of the cooling systems on my slants, NWL had done over 110k when it was taken off the road. It has a standard rad and water pump and never overheated even when sitting in the traffic trying to get into Goodwood one year.

Ant Anstead had a standard Stag cooling system tested in for the love of cars and it was fine.

I can't see any research that backs up any of Alicools claims therefore I can only put the popularity down to the sheep and bling effect.

I won't be buying one, not even for YGD. Especially when I can get a standard one re-cored for around the £100 mark like Alun.

I will add that if there is a problem with your cooling system fitting an ali or more efficient rad will only mask said problem.

In an engineered situation, I can agree with most of Mark's comments.

As for pipe size, just like with 16v technology, two (or three) smaller holes are more efficient than one larger hole: volume versus surface area for heat transfer from a fluid.

If your viscous fan is pushing engine heat into the rad when stationary, you have the fan blades on back to front!

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:05 am I believe that there is nothing wrong with a Sprint/slant cooling system as long as it is properly maintained.

I disagree.
Even in a well maintained car,
the so called expansion tank is a very weak link. If the coolant level drops at all it is low in the engine.
The BL workshop manual has a warning about this (the temp reads okay even though no coolant is in contact with the sender).
A proper header tank is really required.

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:05 amAnt Anstead had a standard Stag cooling system tested in for the love of cars and it was fine.

That is true but it should be pointed out that this car was using Evans coolant.




Ian.

I disagree.
Even in a well maintained car,
the so called expansion tank is a very weak link. If the coolant level drops at all it is low in the engine.
The BL workshop manual has a warning about this (the temp reads okay even though no coolant is in contact with the sender).
A proper header tank is really required.

But that's my point Ian, if the system level drops like that then there's a problem with the cooling system thus the system is not well maintained.

A properly maintained system is perfectly fine.

The problem that you describe arises when you suffer a coolant leak. That has nothing to do with the rads ability to cool the car.

I didn't think they used Evans in that test, trying to find the video to see.

Having had a std radiator since purchasing the car, and now a aluminium (Alicool) for the last year or so,
the only discernable difference I have noticed is the idle temperature in traffic is more controlled and
consistent.

My old radiator in the pictures looked bad, but held full pressure, however the coolant always came out
rusty in colour, as opposed to the aluminium.

The cars cooling system has always been spot on, well, until the waterpump/thermostat housing pressure issue.

Idle temp, and less prone to wear (rust) are the only advantages I have discovered to date.

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:54 am
But that's my point Ian, if the system level drops like that then there's a problem with the cooling system thus the system is not well maintained.

A properly maintained system is perfectly fine.

The problem that you describe arises when you suffer a coolant leak. That has nothing to do with the rads ability to cool the car.

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:54 am But that's my point Ian, if the system level drops like that then there's a problem with the cooling system thus the system is not well maintained.

Once again I disagree.
The reason for a drop in coolant level is not necessarily anything to do with maintenance or the lack of,
eg if the radiator is holed by a stone or some other missile.

Header tanks today come with low level sensors. It is practical to position one such on a Dolomite to give a reasonably early warning.




Ian.

sprint95m wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:56 pm

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:54 am But that's my point Ian, if the system level drops like that then there's a problem with the cooling system thus the system is not well maintained.

Once again I disagree.
The reason for a drop in coolant level is not necessarily anything to do with maintenance or the lack of,
eg if the radiator is holed by a stone or some other missile.

Header tanks today come with low level sensors. It is practical to position one such on a Dolomite to give a reasonably early warning.




Ian.

Ian you are too obsessed with what happens when the car looses coolant, expansion tank position etc...

You seem to forget that I agree with the position of the expansion tank, hence why I put the Volvo one on RUK. However, that has nothing to do with the comparison between an ali rad and normal rads cooling capacity.

xvivalve wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:09 am * My experience of aluminium radiators in ‘modern’ cars is they have a far shorter life than copper/brass before oxidation takes its toll on the fins.

Unquestionably your knowledge of cars is much greater than mine Alun, but nonetheless your observation surprised one.
It had seemed to me that radiators last better nowadays. As do hoses.

My mother had a 2002 Peugeot 307. This still has the original radiator.
Other parts didn't last so well....
The original battery didn't last three years but is still on its second battery (Varta I think it is).
It has had three or four sets of discs and pads, but is still on its original brake pipes.



Ian.

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:04 pm Ian you are too obsessed with what happens when the car looses coolant, expansion tank position etc...

on the former maybe I am, but prevention is better than cure, as the saying goes. (It is loses by the way.)
As for the latter, I have made no mention of such because I won't use one, instead I opt for a header tank.



Ian.

sprint95m wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:18 pm

James467 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:04 pm Ian you are too obsessed with what happens when the car looses coolant, expansion tank position etc...

on the former maybe I am, but prevention is better than cure, as the saying goes. (It is loses by the way.)
As for the latter, I have made no mention of such because I won't use one, instead I opt for a header tank.



Ian.

You have reminded me that I need to order one for DTR to fit at the NEC.

TBH I regard the Alicool rad as expensive bling, a Sprint rad in decent nick will provide ample cooling. Especially if aided by a header tank and electric fan.

But I still run an aluminium Saab rad in the Carledo and have a matching new one with trans oil cooler for the Dolomega, the simple reasons for this are nothing to do with efficiency, they are cost and availability, The Saab rad can be got for just over £50 from Euro Car Parts online division (£65 for auto model) and I can have one the next day, No wait for my tame rad specialist to recore it and no huge bill! On cars which are daily drivers (or will be, in the case of the Dolomega) this is important!

For once I agree with Ian, a little preventive paranoia is a good thing. We all know our cars were not that well designed by the factory, if we get a chance to improve on that, surely it's in our interest to do so! Nothing destroys one's love for a car more than unreliability (unless you are an Alfa man)

Steve

But I still run an aluminium Saab rad in the Carledo and have a matching new one with trans oil cooler for the Dolomega, the simple reasons for this are nothing to do with efficiency, they are cost and availability, The Saab rad can be got for just over £50 from Euro Car Parts online division (£65 for auto model) and I can have one the next day, No wait for my tame rad specialist to recore it and no huge bill! On cars which are daily drivers (or will be, in the case of the Dolomega) this is important!

When the time comes Steve I may do that in the Flamingo Sprint as well as fitting the Volvo tank.