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Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:31 pm
by GrahamFountain
alvera wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:52 pm
the smaller wire was a cold start wire, what ever that is.
It puts full the battery voltage, nominally 12v, to the top of the 6v coil all the time the starter is (or should be) turning, to (over)compensate for the voltage drop that causes, and make it a bit more likely the car will start. It does that by shorting out a ballast resistor, which is often incorporated in the loom, between the ignition switch and the coil.
Graham
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:47 pm
by alvera
Hi Graham, I haven't got a ballest resistor coil, someone has removed it and fitted electronic ignition so I can probably forget that wire eh. Alan
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:06 pm
by GrahamFountain
alvera wrote: ↑Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:47 pm
Hi Graham, I haven't got a ballest resistor coil, someone has removed it and fitted electronic ignition so I can probably forget that wire eh. Alan
In that case, there's no need for it. But if it's there, the worst it would do is, while the key is turned, give a slightly lower resistance between battery and coil, through the thick wire to the solenoid, avoiding contact losses in the ignition switch and fuse. So it can't really hurt.
Graham
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:51 am
by Richard the old one
Another good test before you take the starter motor out would be to remove the ignition lead from the starter solenoid and then apply 12 volts directly to the that solenoid terminal. If the starter motor turns over it will indicate that the problem is that you have developed a high resistance in the ignition feed to the solenoid which might be in the ignition switch or the inhibit switch. Obviously you should then sort out that problem but fitting a relay as previously stated does reduce the current drawn and so might get you back up and running.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:35 pm
by alvera
Hi Graham thanks for that information if I can get a four post solenoid I'll attach the wire, if not and only a three post one is available it will do.
Richard you advocate a relay but do you have any instructions ( as simple as possible as I am a 72 year old novice ) as to wiring and location please.
Alan
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:49 pm
by GrahamFountain
I agree with Richard that before you do anything else (except possibly tighten the starter motor mounting bolt) you should briefly connect the terminal on the starter solenoid where the input from the ignition switch connects direct to the battery positive. If there's 12v on the main feed to the solenoid from the battery as well, it should turn the engine unless the solenoid is gone.
But I would also measure the voltage on the main battery feed at the solenoid while the ignition input to the solenoid is at 12v. The main feed voltage will drop a bit as the starter tries to turn the engine, and I'm not sure what a good minimum should be. But if it drops very low and the engine don't turn, then the lead from the battery or the battery terminal must be suspect - though, if it's the battery terminal that's a bad contact, it usually stays open circuit when you let go of the key and you have to wiggle/tap it to even get the lights on.
I think you should test all the possible faults before you take the starter off cos it'll hurt when you kick yourself if it's not that. That test that Richard suggests, along with checking there's a good connection from the battery, should make it clear if its the starter/solenoid or not.
Graham
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:26 pm
by cleverusername
On most occasions when I have had starting problems it has generally been a bad earth. Either a broken earth strap or the earth is corroded. That is what I would check before doing anything else.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm
by alvera
I will try those suggestions tomorrow. Lets see if I understand correctly-
1/ tighten up the bottom motor bolt.
2/ Reconnect the main wire from the battery.
3/ Run a new wire from the battery directly to the solenoid ( quick flash ) where the red and white wire from the ignition would normally go.
If the starter operates there's a problem with the ignition circuit. If it doesn't operate it confirms the solenoid is duff.-Is that all correct ?
Alan
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:42 pm
by Carledo
alvera wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:35 pm
Hi Graham thanks for that information if I can get a four post solenoid I'll attach the wire, if not and only a three post one is available it will do.
Richard you advocate a relay but do you have any instructions ( as simple as possible as I am a 72 year old novice ) as to wiring and location please.
Alan
Mount a 4 pole, 40 amp relay on the O/S flitch near the battery. The 4 poles will be marked 30, 85, 86 and 87, take a substantial battery live to pole 30, separate out the White/Red lead from the starter back down to where it meets the main loom, shorten as needed and attach to pole 85. Earth pole 86 and run a new substantial wire from pole 87 to the starter solenoid terminal left vacant by the removal of the White/red lead.
Steve
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:11 pm
by GrahamFountain
alvera wrote: ↑Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm
I will try those suggestions tomorrow. Lets see if I understand correctly-
1/ tighten up the bottom motor bolt.
2/ Reconnect the main wire from the battery.
3/ Run a new wire from the battery directly to the solenoid ( quick flash ) where the red and white wire from the ignition would normally go.
If the starter operates there's a problem with the ignition circuit. If it doesn't operate it confirms the solenoid is duff.-Is that all correct ?
Alan
Yeh, I think that covers most stuff except if there's a problem with the main lead down from the battery, or the earth as was said. You'll probably need to use a voltmeter when the starter is operated to see such problems. Is there a separate earth return lead in that setup, or is it through the mountings to the block?
Graham
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:31 am
by alvera
Yes Graham, I presume it gets its earth from being bolted to the gearbox.which is earthed via a strap to the block from the battery.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:41 am
by cleverusername
alvera wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:31 am
Yes Graham, I presume it gets its earth from being bolted to the gearbox.which is earthed via a strap to the block from the battery.
I would take off the earth strap to the block and clean it with an abrasive. Even if it is good enough to keep the engine going when it is started, the starter motor draws far more current and the earth could be bad enough to stop it from working.
I have had this on a couple of cars.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:51 am
by Galileo
Underrated title.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:31 am
by Richard the old one
My Dolomites are all 1500cc cars but my assumption is that all the others will be basically the same. I am in the process of producing an article of Dolly Mixture on fitting a relay in a 1500. I never like cutting the original wiring so you will see that I have not done that in the diagram.
Alvera just to let you know I am 74 but it does mean that I have been a Dolomite owner for 43 years now.
Re: Starter dead don't know where to start
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:10 pm
by alvera
alvera wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:17 pm
Went to my 1850 auto this afternoon and on turning the key with the car in park - no response at all.The car as always started first time but today nothing.Eventually found the starter motor and solenoid after jacking up the car.Traced the wires back to a multi plug, checking for loose terminals and everything seems fine.Looked for a nut on the end thinking I could release the starter if it was jammed but there isn't one so gave the starter a gently tap with a hammer and tried it again and it did one click but then nothing.
I don't really know where to start and obviously can't take it to the garage without a transporter. I just think it might be something simple as it has always worked fine before.
Any help would be appreciated. Alan