Tick tick tick tick nuts.

[analogue_rogue]

Awesome. Thanks for induging me! Lol it souds as ifyhe windings around the softcore are breaking down perhaps?

[Richard the old one]

Tinweevil you have certainly had a busy day and come up with some interesting results which I need more time to ponder on.

It would be interesting to change the solenoids over as this should prove if the problem is in the motor or solenoid. You must be getting an expert at changing 1500 starter motors.

As a matter of interest does the good starter have an old or new type of solenoid? The new type from what you have indicated has many advantages.

[tinweevil]

The good unit has the OE solenoid - Lucas 77009A. The bad unit has the alternate solenoid, unmarked unfortunately.

[MIG Wielder]

Hi Julian, Jolly good set of measurements. Its nice to have these bits of kit.
Yes, I would certainly agree with your observations. The solenoid contacts apparently not closing at test 4.1 is curious. The Ignition key " start " bit of the switch or the wiring is dropping a lot of volts. The relay seems like a good idea. I have seen some of these commercial 30A relays and I would describe the construction as " a bit marginal for the application " particularly as the peak currents here are higher.
Not all B.L. cars switch the starter solenoid current directly from the key-switch. The MGB for instance has a big relay on the inner wing for this.
[P.M.to follow btw ]
Now purely for diagnostic purpose can we get the loan of an inertia starter motor solenoid ( Dolomite 1300 ?) .
Now with the link removed from between the 1500 pre-engaged starter solenoid and the actual motor, connect this external solenoid into the motor circuit, ( so you get motor current ) . Transfer the heavy duty battery lead to the new external solenoid, and earth the output terminal of the 1500 pre-engaged solenoid.( This is so that the starter cog moves into mesh ). The solenoid current will be a lot higher, but I think it should be O.K. for a short while. You will also lose the " pre-engaging " bit of the starter, but I think it should be O.K.
Do you think this might work ?
If the motor works every time then the problem must be the solenoid.
HTH,
Tony.

[Jon Tilson]

Minor point of info...
Rover P6 v8 has a starter relay as it was clearly considered bad form to put solenoid current through the ignition switch, which is of almost identical design to the one used on Triumphs...known cheapskates on the leccy front by my reckoning...

None of my dollies is still on its original ignition switch.

Only Ford did electrics chepaer in the 60's...with no fuses at at all iirc...and very low spec insualtion and wrapping:-)
Only 2 fuses is utterly unprintable...MGB's have 4 and even Spits 3!

The stag is the only Triumph I know that I would consider wired half reasonably...maybe Spen King had some positive influence after all...

Sorry I digress...

Jonners

[sprint95m]

Minor point of info...
Rover P6 v8 has a starter relay as it was clearly considered bad form to put solenoid current through the ignition switch, which is of almost identical design to the one used on Triumphs...known cheapskates on the leccy front by my reckoning...

I had noticed that on a P6B and have probably removed said relay off one because it is a useful Lucas 6RA.
Indeed over the years I have salvaged and used quite a few of these relays.
My Dolomite has five fitted, (dipped headlights, main beam, auxiliary brake and indicators).

When I had a Sprint I thought about trying one as I had a fair lot of bother with the starter (always parked downhill because of it)
but fitting a new solenoid solved the problem, so never actually fitted one.


Modern relays are very compact but contain a diode which (for longevity) necessitates switching on the earth whereas a 6RA can be switched on
either on the earth or 12V ignition feed. Obviously having the latter as an option makes a 6RA easier to employ in the starter circuit,
unless you particularly like complicated modifications to wiring looms.

Thanks for bringing this up, I think I may fit one......




Ian.

[MIG Wielder]

Hi Julian, Just for interest , what is the construction of the external short high-current Lucas cable that connects the solenoid to the starter motor on the 1500 ? ( Its similar to another unit I see )
Is it soldered at both ends or just crimped ?
If you twist the cable against the terminal is there any movement of the cable ?
Ta,
Tony.

[tinweevil]

The link is rolled and soldered, there is no sign of movement at either end

But you got me pondering test 4 again and wondering where your train of thought was going. Is half a volt lost here too much? Taking the average of results 4.2 & 4.3 times the average of test 8 results means 157 watts are being lost as heat in the solenoid contacts or the link, that feels a lot. So I stuck the meter across the same points as test 4 to see what the OE solenoid reads:

Test 15. Solenoid+ to motor+ (Same as test 4)
15.1. 0.06
15.2. 0.06
15.3. 0.06

Just a touch different then. This times the average of test 13 results gives just 12 watts of heat in the OE solenoid. So there was only one thing for it, off with the motor again. After marking both:

I swapped the solenoids. The plungers looked identical at first and I almost made the mistake of just going on the diameter and depth of the recess in the end. A nagging doubt persuaded me to remove both from the lever and the lengths are not equal.

With the OE solenoid on the 'bad' motor (Solenoid II on Motor I) and everything back on the car she turns over fine. Not great, I think the replacement motor (II) is more lively but the 'bad' motor may be actually be good. Bear in mind that last week the battery had just been on charge & this time it has sat untouched in a damn cold garage for 72 hours. One last set of readings:

Test 16. Motor current. (Same as tests 8 & 13)
16.1. 199A
16.2. 181A
16.3. 184A

With twice forgetting to reset the meter I've turned the car over a total of 6 times like this and in all it did not sound as lively as during the past week. Even so I have left this configuration on the car with the battery on charge and will reserve judgement.

[Karlos]

Apologies for bumping this old thread, but the starter has begun to play up on my 1850 HL.

I hear the solenoid clicking in when I try to start the engine, I hear it click out when I release the key, but the starter does not turn. After about 15 attempts in quick succession, suddenely it all engages and the engine turns over and fires up. I kept going for short 5min drives round the block. It must of done it 4 or 5 times out of 10, at one point I stalled the car and luckily was on a hill so I rolled down and bump started it in reverse.

It is a great thread I read here, it has some very methodical diagnostics, but was there any conclusion? Is there anything that can be done to my starter or solenoid to make it start more reliably?
Thanks,
Karl.

[MIG Wielder]

Hi Karlos, Thanks for your post on this. Sorry about the delay as I was trying to get some more ideas on this problem which does seem to be a Dolomite-only problem. Other cars with the same starter motor either work; or they don't work.
The really annoying thing is that you can take the starter off; look at it wisely; put it back and it works fine for a while.

One extra bit of news I got off the www. on an M.G. forum was that one owner had a non working starter caused by corrosion between the motor casing and the cylinder block. It suggests the fixing bolts must have been quite corroded as well.
Anyway, coming back to your problem, how far have you got with a diagnosis in your particular case ?
Clean battery terminals; clean the electrics on the motor connectors; Clean the engine earth strap on the O/S engine mount. Clean earths. That's the simple stuff.
After that it's out with the voltmeter, and check the battery voltage while its trying to operate; check the voltage drop on the earth cable and from battery + to the motor.
The really important measurement is the one Julian did from Battery + to the external connecting cable on the motor itself. A high voltage here means the solenoid is not operating the high current contacts. At which point the whole thing has to come out.
My solution to all this was duck the problem and to fit one of the high-torque starters. Best thing I ever did I reckon.
Let us know how you get on as I have some more things to try later.
Good Luck,
Tony.

[Jon Tilson]

AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!.

NEVER EVER AGAIN bump start a dolomite in reverse. You WILL knacker the layshaft and they are becoming unobtainable.

Only ever bump start in top gear.

I can show you a few in my black museum parts box.

Your starter needs new brushes. You can jog along for a while but eventually it will end in tears,

Just get a new starter if you cant do the brushes yourself. Alun will have one.

The hi torque jobs are fine but dont last as long and are double or triple the price.

Jonners

[MIG Wielder]

Yes, brushes are a probability. If the brushes are a problem when you put your voltmeter between the high current link wire between the solenoid and the motor and a good earth you will see 12V when you operate the key but the motor will not be turning.

quote/
The hi torque jobs are fine but dont last as long and are double or triple the price.
quote/

Oooooh Goody ! An argument ! I'll hold your coat.
Tony.

[Karlos]

SURELY thats the best way to start the engine as the gearing will give the highest rpm if it is in reverse?

Seriously though I had no choice about bump starting, had to get the car running. It was not possible to lay on the road at junction and try and make it start. Anyway, I continued on to the MOT, and it started everytime during the test, no fuss at all. I will check the earthing and teminals etc. before the retest - it failed on a rusty brake pipe BTW.

A bit off topic, I got back home no problem, made up a new pipe fitted it and then the master cylinder failed when I tried to bleed the brakes, nothing happening with the pedal, not pushing any fluid out of the calipers.

So in all deep joy - a car that some times goes but will not stop.
Hopefully it is the final hurdle onay way to a test cert.

[cleverusername]

If it is a bad earth and the earth is via the block, there is an easy solution. I had a similar problem with Xantia starter, so I just ran a wire from one of the starter motor wiring bolts straight to the negative terminal of the battery.

It was also possible to test that motor on a bench, just connect it up to a battery. That is how I knew it was a bad earth, the motor turned strongly on the bench.

[Jon Tilson]

The reverse teeth on the countershaft are the issue.

Trust me and don't do it again unless you want to rebuild your gearbox. The starter pinion has much more substantial teeth as does the ring gear.

Jonners