The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

JPSPRINT wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 3:15 am Ancient reply I know, but that Weber Manifold / Jenvey throttle bodies / Emerald ECU combo sounds superb !
If anyone has installed this (or even EFI in general), please post pics

As you may have noticed, I contributed quite a lot to this thread! My EFi Vauxhall powered Toledo is still running faultlessly and the Omega (called something else in Oz but the same basic car) powered Sprint has now joined the ranks too. See my Project Dolomega thread in the resto section.

Despite the time lapse, i'm not aware of anyone who has yet completed a Jenvey/Mangoletsi-Weber/Emerald EFI conversion, mainly, I suspect, on the grounds of cost! It is by far the most expensive way of achieving the objective, if also the easiest in terms of time and effort invested as all the hardware is a simple "bolt on". I know a few who are thinking about it, some have been thinking since this thread was last active in 2017!

I think in this case, the British reputation for being a nation of "men in sheds" making stuff on very low or zero budget, is well deserved. Most of us would rather invest time than money! An American, I suspect would just throw cash at it and get someone else to do the donkeywork, but our minds don't work that way, "built not bought" is more than a philosophy, to me and guys like me, it's a way of life!

What the Australian take is on THIS debate, I don't know, from what i've seen of Oz customs (some of which have turned me green with envy) you are somewhere in the middle of the 2 transatlantic extremes, but that's just a gut feeling without much evidence.

Steve

Carledo wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 12:46 pm

JPSPRINT wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 3:15 am Ancient reply I know, but that Weber Manifold / Jenvey throttle bodies / Emerald ECU combo sounds superb !
If anyone has installed this (or even EFI in general), please post pics

As you may have noticed, I contributed quite a lot to this thread! My EFi Vauxhall powered Toledo is still running faultlessly and the Omega (called something else in Oz but the same basic car) powered Sprint has now joined the ranks too. See my Project Dolomega thread in the resto section.

Despite the time lapse, i'm not aware of anyone who has yet completed a Jenvey/Mangoletsi-Weber/Emerald EFI conversion, mainly, I suspect, on the grounds of cost! It is by far the most expensive way of achieving the objective, if also the easiest in terms of time and effort invested as all the hardware is a simple "bolt on". I know a few who are thinking about it, some have been thinking since this thread was last active in 2017!

I think in this case, the British reputation for being a nation of "men in sheds" making stuff on very low or zero budget, is well deserved. Most of us would rather invest time than money! An American, I suspect would just throw cash at it and get someone else to do the donkeywork, but our minds don't work that way, "built not bought" is more than a philosophy, to me and guys like me, it's a way of life!

What the Australian take is on THIS debate, I don't know, from what i've seen of Oz customs (some of which have turned me green with envy) you are somewhere in the middle of the 2 transatlantic extremes, but that's just a gut feeling without much evidence.

Steve

The Americans have the advantage of economies of scale. The large production run of many of their cars, means parts and kits are often very cheap there. To be fair there is a tradition of shade tree/red neck engineering in the states. Especially in more rural areas.

cleverusername wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 1:21 pm

Carledo wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 12:46 pm

JPSPRINT wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 3:15 am Ancient reply I know, but that Weber Manifold / Jenvey throttle bodies / Emerald ECU combo sounds superb !
If anyone has installed this (or even EFI in general), please post pics

As you may have noticed, I contributed quite a lot to this thread! My EFi Vauxhall powered Toledo is still running faultlessly and the Omega (called something else in Oz but the same basic car) powered Sprint has now joined the ranks too. See my Project Dolomega thread in the resto section.

Despite the time lapse, i'm not aware of anyone who has yet completed a Jenvey/Mangoletsi-Weber/Emerald EFI conversion, mainly, I suspect, on the grounds of cost! It is by far the most expensive way of achieving the objective, if also the easiest in terms of time and effort invested as all the hardware is a simple "bolt on". I know a few who are thinking about it, some have been thinking since this thread was last active in 2017!

I think in this case, the British reputation for being a nation of "men in sheds" making stuff on very low or zero budget, is well deserved. Most of us would rather invest time than money! An American, I suspect would just throw cash at it and get someone else to do the donkeywork, but our minds don't work that way, "built not bought" is more than a philosophy, to me and guys like me, it's a way of life!

What the Australian take is on THIS debate, I don't know, from what i've seen of Oz customs (some of which have turned me green with envy) you are somewhere in the middle of the 2 transatlantic extremes, but that's just a gut feeling without much evidence.

Steve

The Americans have the advantage of economies of scale. The large production run of many of their cars, means parts and kits are often very cheap there. To be fair there is a tradition of shade tree/red neck engineering in the states. Especially in more rural areas.

I've probably watched too many US customizing shows! You know, the ones where Joey Bloggs goes in and asks for a hotrod or ratrod or restomod ,whatever and the guy just says "sure, come back in a month, it'll cost you $60k" It seems to me that most US car nuts have bigger disposable incomes than us Brits can even dream about! But I should generalize less, I watch "Uncle Tony's Garage" on Youtube a lot and he does quite a lot for very little money, mostly on 60s and 70s Mopar stuff. Uncle Tony himself reminds me of me, permanent rollup dangling from his mouth, about the same age and similar philosophies on engineering! But guys like him DO seem to be a minority these days, like fast Fords over here, the real US muscle cars have gone beyond the budget of ordinary mortals, the buyers have changed accordingly and average joes have had to find alternatives. Which doesn't make for such interesting TV I guess!

To be fair, Sprints are starting to go the same way here, with projects that wouldn't have been considered viable 10 years ago fetching over £1k now and the best cars making over £10k. Sure they aren't in MkI Escort territory yet, but the trend is increasing. If i'd started from scratch today, I couldn't have afforded my Sprint in the first place, rough as it was when I bought it! Or any of the dozens of classics i've owned in the past, T 2500S estate, GT6, Spitfire III, Volvo Amazon estate, Any number of MkII and MKIII Zodiacs etc et boring cetera. Not to mention the Alpine Tiger and E Type.

Steve

I like the notion of fuel injecting a Dolly, as carbs can be temperamental and tend to require a lot of fettling. Not sure if they add extra performance or economy, and this can be a black art: Jimmy de Ville, from Goblin Garage Works, converted a Golf from Injection to carbs so they'll always be those who have a fondness for the older technology.

As regards classic car prices, Dollies are still relatively affordable, and whether converting a Dolly is financially worth the effort is probably another consideration... the ceiling amount for a well-sorted Sprint is currently about 12k. But if like me I wont be doing any upgrades as an investment, purely as trying to make the car as efficient - and reliable - as it's possible.

Personally don't know anyone who has converted any classic so unsure of the pros and cons.

My effort 10 years ago on an 1850. Another one is on it's way on a 2 liter rebored 1850 with 1850 head.

Jeroen

soe8m wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:06 pm My effort 10 years ago on an 1850. Another one is on it's way on a 2 liter rebored 1850 with 1850 head.

Jeroen

Wow, Jeroen. That looks really impressive. It looks like you've thrown the Dolly engine away apart from the rocker (cam) cover. What are the benefits of carrying out such a radical conversion?

veloce_rosso wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:24 pm

soe8m wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:06 pm My effort 10 years ago on an 1850. Another one is on it's way on a 2 liter rebored 1850 with 1850 head.

Jeroen

Wow, Jeroen. That looks really impressive. It looks like you've thrown the Dolly engine away apart from the rocker (cam) cover. What are the benefits of carrying out such a radical conversion?

It's a modified TR7 setup. The benefits were slightly more than std sprint hp's at the wheels out of an 1850 and it needed 1 liter LPG for 13km.

Jeroen

veloce_rosso wrote: I like the notion of fuel injecting a Dolly, as carbs can be temperamental and tend to require a lot of fettling. Not sure if they add extra performance or economy, and this can be a black art: Jimmy de Ville, from Goblin Garage Works, converted a Golf from Injection to carbs so they'll always be those who have a fondness for the older technology.

As regards classic car prices, Dollies are still relatively affordable, and whether converting a Dolly is financially worth the effort is probably another consideration... the ceiling amount for a well-sorted Sprint is currently about 12k. But if like me I wont be doing any upgrades as an investment, purely as trying to make the car as efficient - and reliable - as it's possible.

Personally don't know anyone who has converted any classic so unsure of the pros and cons.

To be fair to SU carbs (don't know much about strombergs), they aren't difficult to setup, the problems tend to come when people try to setup worn carbs. These carbs are 40 plus years old and many have seen allot of miles. it is hardly surprising some are difficult to setup.

Oh I accept fuel injection is superior, I have never had to touch the fuel injection system on any car, they have never gone wrong. However I like SUs because they are a very elegant design.

With no sensors, a brass tube and what amounts to some very basic plumbing, the designers of SUs have managed to design a carb which can continuously vary the mixture with engine speed. They are very clever, they can't match fuel injection but they must have been one of the most efficient carbs when carbs were common on cars.

cleverusername wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 1:06 am

veloce_rosso wrote: I like the notion of fuel injecting a Dolly, as carbs can be temperamental and tend to require a lot of fettling. Not sure if they add extra performance or economy, and this can be a black art: Jimmy de Ville, from Goblin Garage Works, converted a Golf from Injection to carbs so they'll always be those who have a fondness for the older technology.

As regards classic car prices, Dollies are still relatively affordable, and whether converting a Dolly is financially worth the effort is probably another consideration... the ceiling amount for a well-sorted Sprint is currently about 12k. But if like me I wont be doing any upgrades as an investment, purely as trying to make the car as efficient - and reliable - as it's possible.

Personally don't know anyone who has converted any classic so unsure of the pros and cons.

To be fair to SU carbs (don't know much about strombergs), they aren't difficult to setup, the problems tend to come when people try to setup worn carbs. These carbs are 40 plus years old and many have seen allot of miles. it is hardly surprising some are difficult to setup.

Oh I accept fuel injection is superior, I have never had to touch the fuel injection system on any car, they have never gone wrong. However I like SUs because they are a very elegant design.

With no sensors, a brass tube and what amounts to some very basic plumbing, the designers of SUs have managed to design a carb which can continuously vary the mixture with engine speed. They are very clever, they can't match fuel injection but they must have been one of the most efficient carbs when carbs were common on cars.

Because early fuel injection has no sensors how do you adjust them? The only carbs I've had on cars are Webers, Strombergs and Solex.

soe8m wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:29 pm

veloce_rosso wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:24 pm

soe8m wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 9:06 pm My effort 10 years ago on an 1850. Another one is on it's way on a 2 liter rebored 1850 with 1850 head.

Jeroen

Wow, Jeroen. That looks really impressive. It looks like you've thrown the Dolly engine away apart from the rocker (cam) cover. What are the benefits of carrying out such a radical conversion?

It's a modified TR7 setup. The benefits were slightly more than std sprint hp's at the wheels out of an 1850 and it needed 1 liter LPG for 13km.

Jeroen

So that engine started life as a 2.0 lt TR7 plant? How does that differ from the 16 valve on the Sprint? is it just 8 valve or is there witchcraft going on?

veloce_rosso wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 9:45 am
So that engine started life as a 2.0 lt TR7 plant? How does that differ from the 16 valve on the Sprint? is it just 8 valve or is there witchcraft going on?

No. Still an 1850 but a tr7 inletmanifold en modified tr7 plenum for fitting injection parts.

Jeroen

veloce_rosso wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 9:43 am
Because early fuel injection has no sensors how do you adjust them? The only carbs I've had on cars are Webers, Strombergs and Solex.

These are vacuum or mechanically aiflow controlled. Some are centrifugal with a 3 dimensional cam. There are Bosch inline petrol injection pumps similar like their diesel ones that are partlty vacuum controlled by jets around the throttle valve to have vaccuum signals to the pump. Changing these jets does alter the vaccuum ans so the mixture.

So many way's to control without sensors.

Jeroen

veloce_rosso wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 9:45 am So that engine started life as a 2.0 lt TR7 plant? How does that differ from the 16 valve on the Sprint? is it just 8 valve or is there witchcraft going on?

If I may expand a little on what Jeroen has said,
Triumph made electronic fuel injected versions of the TR7 (for the U.S. market).

The technology has moved on more than a bit since then, nonetheless the EFI inlet manifold
is still viable because it has both bosses and an inlet runner for each cylinder.
The manifold will fit both the later 1850 and the TR7 cylinder heads.
An early 1850 head will need the water transfer slot removed to accept the manifold.




Ian.

I wonder how much SAAB altered the heads on later injected slant 4s? Wonder if the manifold off a 900 injection model would fit?

yorkshire_spam wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 10:35 am I wonder how much SAAB altered the heads on later injected slant 4s? Wonder if the manifold off a 900 injection model would fit?

No.
Although you could probably adapt one I am sure,
I don't see any benefit given that new manifolds are available for slant fours?


The 99 had fuel injection from the mid seventies and that manifold could do
but is that not single point fuel injection?



Ian.