Clutch Woes

[Ictoan]

Driven plates commonly bind to flywheels on cars that stand about for ages.
If you have full movement of the release arm and it feels like a clutch should at the pedal then you just have this.

Warm the car up thoroughly, then try this in succession...

Put the car in top gear and start it clutch down. It will probably bog the starter and not work. Try it a few times going back into neutral so the gears dont load up. It may eventually come free. You can alternate with reverse gear as well.

If this doesnt work after a few attempts...50% likely...you need to get the car on a stretch of road where you can safely
drive around in a quiet area. Get some help to push the car up to walking pace and force it in to 1st gear at tickover speed.
Then drive it slowly accelerating and decelerating but with the clutch held down. Eventually the shocks of driving and accelerating
and slowing down will free the plates off and the car will start to drive normally.

I have had this happen several times to numerous cars, not just dolomites and it always works...

Well worth trying before you fork out to have the box out.

Jonners

Hi Jon,

Unfortunately this is a problem that manifested itself while on the move during a road section of the Berwick Classic Rally, and to be fair the clutch had probably had a bit of abuse on the tests. In my own mind I am a bit doubtful that it is the plate, but I have been wrong too many times before now to trust my own diagnosis, but I think now that it may be the release mechanism, as has been previously suggested here, unless the plate has disintegrated.

After replacing the m/c, hose and s/c the lever is now being fully pushed by the slave to the extent that it is now just touching the bellhousing (which was commented on previously as being an indicator that the release mechanism could be at fault. Further more, the 'feel' is not what it was before packing in. I first noticed the pedal suddenly feel different at the time (the pedal seemed to stiffen up at full travel) and within a few gear changes the clutch had stopped releasing the drive.

Thanks,
Tim

[Jon Tilson]

Ah I see....

Looks like a broken wedgelock bolt and a rotating bearing carrier fork then....

This means it will not put enough pressure on the release bearing to free the clutch.

Box out it is then. It is doable yourself if you drop the sub frame bolts and the exhaust comes off easily.
I would probably swing it all out with the engine myself so that other stuff can be sorted at the same time
like the dreaded manifold to downpipe joint.

Jonners

[Ictoan]

Ah I see....

Looks like a broken wedgelock bolt and a rotating bearing carrier fork then....

This means it will not put enough pressure on the release bearing to free the clutch.

Box out it is then. It is doable yourself if you drop the sub frame bolts and the exhaust comes off easily.
I would probably swing it all out with the engine myself so that other stuff can be sorted at the same time
like the dreaded manifold to downpipe joint.

Jonners

Thanks Jon.

My competence and confidence are not high enough for me to attempt this, especially on the drive, so it is going back to the garage. The engine was out not so long ago so there should not be any problem with seized bolts/nuts but I'm sure a fully equipped workshop and competent mechanic with some knowledge of these cars should be able to sort it out.

Assuming it is the problem you describe, what parts will I need? Or can it be repaired?

Thanks again,
Tim

[Jon Tilson]

It can be a right old pain if the cross shaft wedgelock pin breaks.
It makes the cross shaft very difficult to get out. In the old days I used to saw through the cross shaft and get a new one.
That is no longer an option sadly. Last time I cut through the top pins holding the supports on the fork for the bearing carrier with a dremel cutting disc and then the shaft rotated enough for me to drill through the fork from the top side and punch out the broken off bit of wedgelock. Then the shaft will pull out of the fork and all is well. Then just needed new pins at the top of the fork.

I'd be tempted to fit a bellows type slave cylinder and do away with the fork altogether. There are a few threads on doing this. Look at Shaun Roche's resto thread. I think he did it to his.

Jonners

[Ictoan]

Thanks Jon for the info. I have a feeling it might be the wedgelock. Time will tell.

Tim

[Ictoan]

I see that Rimmers have two pin bolts available (which I assume is also known as the wedgelock pin) available, one is uprated but appears to have a thicker threaded section. Will this fit a standard fork/cross shaft without any mods?

Thanks,
Tim

[Jon Tilson]

So far I've always managed to find OE ones either from 2nd hand boxes or suppliers like Ficthetts.
They dont come cheap...

I'd seriously consider the bellows type upgrade. Think I'll do my next one this way.

Jonners

[Ictoan]

So far I've always managed to find OE ones either from 2nd hand boxes or suppliers like Ficthetts.
They dont come cheap...

I'd seriously consider the bellows type upgrade. Think I'll do my next one this way.

Jonners

Hi Jon,

The bellows idea looks very good but I'll wait for the diagnosis from the garage before considering that. They seem to be £200+ so quite an investment, though I do appreciate the advantage. The pics I have seen show two pipes going into the 'slave' on the input shaft. What is the second one for, bleeding?

Tim

[Jon Tilson]

Yes I think one does go to an external bleed point. I'd try and get this as close as possible to the master cylinder.

Jonners

[Ictoan]

Hopefully, the FINAL update on this problem!

Garage took the 'box out and the problem was diagnosed as a broken wedgelock/tapered pin, as suggested very early on I think.

It looks like the pin may already have been broken when fitted at some point in the past, as it wasn't full length and they could not find the broken bit!

So, ordered a new £5 pin (oh, and a complete new clutch just in case) and it all seems to be hunky dory. The pedal feels good and more importantly it all works.

I hope this thread proves to be of some assistance for someone else in the future.

Thanks to everyone for their advice, very much appreciated even if I did have my own thoughts on the problem.

No doubt I will be along soon for more advice, though I am hoping that the need for any more must be reducing as more and more bits get rebuilt/replaced.

Tim

[Ictoan]

Spoke too soon!

Exactly a year after breaking the clutch the first time, I have broken it again on the same event. This time though I only got 11 miles into it. I can only have done 2-300 miles since it was fixed.

It seems like the same as before. A few miles before it broke I noticed a slight lessening in travel before the clutch started to bite, then there was a small bang, seeming to come from the tunnel area. The pedal went to the floor and the only resistance was from the return spring at the pedal. A quick check confirmed the clevis pin was still in place on the pedal.

Managed to get home with out using the clutch but then found the pedal would depress a couple of inches very loosely, then go rock solid (different from when it broke just 20 minutes earlier). A bit of a fumble underneath (ooh err missus) seems to suggest the slave cylinder is connected to the lever still, and there is fluid in the reservoir and no leaks that I can find.

To recap, the master and slave cylinders were replaced and the rubber hose between them replaced with a Goodridge one. This didn't cure anything at the time so the 'box was removed and it was discovered that the wedgelock was broken. A new wedgelock was fitted and new clutch friction and pressure plates fitted for good measure.

After getting the car back on the road last time I found second gear difficult to engage when cold, but after a couple of miles (or left to let the engine warm up on the drive) it would be a lot better. I suspect this was a result of the brutal treatment it suffered last year. With this in mind I am thinking the best way forward would be a 'new' g/box (either rebuilt or a known good one), complete with clutch actuating mechanism.

Does anyone have a good gearbox or know someone who can rebuild mine?

Thanks,
Tim

[Galileo]

My Sprint did exactly the same thing, could it be the that arm on the clutch cross shaft has snapped? This was is in situ, so apologies for the poor picture.



Bad luck if this has happened just after you had all that work done.

[Jon Tilson]

Sadly some new wedgelocks are not good quality.
Where did you get yours from? Same part is used on TR6's so go for a good supplier like Paddocks or Moss Europe.

Your box will recover through being driven. If its not noisy it will be fine.

I suspect the weld on the clutch cross shaft too though....shame as its box out to fix....

Jonners

[Ictoan]

Hi Jon and Galileo.

The wedgelock came from RB. Part no 158777. At the time there were two listed, one had a different thread from memory?

The transmission is a bit noisy, always has been since I got the car. It was on the 'to do when there is nothing better to spend my money on' list, then the rear axle, but this latest caper with the clutch seems to suggest I should think about it now if the box has to come out anyway.

I have an add in the Wanted column and have sent a message to Mike Papworth.

Thanks as ever,
Tim

[Ictoan]

Another up date.

I have removed the tunnel and can see it is the weld/lever that has broken. See photos below. I have spoken briefly to the garage I use and the guy who does most of the work on my car was not in, but it was suggested that they may be able to line up the lever to the old weld marks and weld again, but a bit more substantially this time. This would avoid taking the box out. One question that was raised was if there is a phosphur bronze(?) bearing where the cross shaft enters the bellhousing, if it is then it will mean the 'box out(?) so that the cross shaft can be removed.

Or will I need a new lever and cross shaft and box out to fit?

Any thoughts or recommendations welcome.

Thanks,
Tim