The Triumph Dolomite Club - Discussion Forum

I presume you have tried torquing up the 2 front bolts on the head a bit more?

I mulled over the comments received from my last posting on the various leaks for a couple of days before deciding that the engine would have to come out so that I could attempt to fix the leaks – all at once. I was tempted to press on and get the car running reasoning that there might be other things that will go wrong which would necessitate pulling the engine out yet again but that can be another challenge to be faced in the future.

I dropped the engine, gearbox and subframe out several days ago and removed the gearbox, clutch and flywheel so that I could check the rear main oil seal. No leaks evident there

Geoff’s comments/predictions were absolutely right. The leak came from the sump gasket in the vicinity of that rear oil seal.

I have fitted a new sump and used a slightly thicker cork based gasket which I have glued to the sump itself with a coating of contact adhesive and then coated the top face which goes up against the cylinder block with a smear of ThreeBond 1215 gasket sealant. (I have changed the spelling of this sealant which I had given in an earlier post). We will see if this works!

And the reason for the leak? It became very evident when I removed the existing sump.

Both the workshop and the Haynes manual say little about refitting the sump and the necessity of not over tightening the two bolts which pass through the sump and block and which if tensioned down to the torque figures given in the workshop manual pull the sump up through the gasket and so create, in my case a leak in the left rear corner of the sump itself. I think Geoff hints at this in the posting he did in the “Re: New Sprint owner!” May 16 2011. The hole through which the bolt passes in the block is very large and unless a very heavy washer is used the washer itself will distort as a moderate torque is applied to the nut below. And the washer which sits beneath the nut will pull the sump pan up into the hole in the block and destroy the gasket seal. I note too on the illustration of the Stag sump on Rimmer’s web site that the spring washer is placed under the head of these two bolts, not under the nuts, in order I suspect to allow the flat washer beneath the nuts to apply an even force around the hole in the sump pan. I have tightened all the bolts down to 9 ft/lbs and will check them when I re-tension the cylinder head bolts.

Jeroen - I am not too concerned with the oil seal itself at this time. We do have some problems in locating substitute oil seals down here and the problem that most encounter is that they attempt to use a metric equivalent rather than the exact imperial size.

It is my understanding that the face of the oil seal which is up against the rotating surface runs on a very fine film of oil, it seals whilst running on this film but does not wear so while your suggested modification no doubt works I wonder how that alters the pressure on that oil film in which it is in contact. Does it reduce the life of the seal itself, or cause wear on the rotating shaft? It is an interesting suggestion though and worthy of consideration.

Both Geoff and Ian have suggested tightening up the unions in the brake lines a bit more. A very valid suggestion but what I will do now that I have drained down both the clutch and brakes, is to pull the unions apart first and ensure that all surfaces are clinically clean. Then reconnect and tighten.

Ian has suggested a soft copper washer on the clutch slave cylinder. I have located and fitted a soft aluminium washer which is what the clutch and brake specialists recommend and supply down here.

In taking the gearbox out I have been able to roll it onto its side (and so not loose the oil inside) and do exactly as Ian has suggested and remove the two bolts where they were leaking, clean the threads and the faces of the exhaust bracket and coat the surfaces with ThreeBond 1215. It seems to be oil tight now.

The possible head gasket problem and the evidence of an oil leak under the head below the oil filler cap? I will leave it in the meantime and run the engine and see if it seals, beds down. I shall undo, as Dan has suggested, the two bolts that bolt the head to the timing cover and retighten them when I check the torque settings on the head itself.

Back to the workshop for although the engine and subframe went back in the car last evening, everything now needs to be reconnected and various nuts and bolts tightened.

Robert

Hello Robert, a cork sump gasket?????? I would immediately replace it by a decent paper one.

About the rear seals. As most aftermarket parts i have a doubt of anything is overthought as good as you think. I think the spring in the seal, the rimmer ones i use for years, is just an available spring. My experience was after a rebuild many years ago the seal was leaking very soon. I did replace by a new one and the same happened. Then i did replace again and did cut the spring by 5mm for slightly more tension and then it went ok. I drive daily with my dolomite (not at the moment) about 40.000-50.000km a year and the engine is now death after about 250.000km but in that time it was replaced once without damaging the cranckshaft. At my work i do a lot of engine rebuilds and have in my hands a lot of rearseals from different cars from different era's. The "feel" from the currently supplied ones for Dolomites was too soft.

Jeroen

I have spent many frustrating hours since my last posting hoping that by now I would have been able to report that the engine has started.

It has not for it sits out of the car in the workshop. It has been installed three times in the car since Christmas but it has come out again for the fourth time for I will need to seek the advice and help of those for whom this sort of work brings them a living before I reinstall it again.

There is an old saying attributed to Einstein which says “A man who never made a mistake never made anything”.

And sometimes it is difficult to admit to making a mistake for you think you will loose face. Well I think I have made a rather fundamental mistake and it has cost me dearly – and I feel embarrassed. But if I do not say anything then others might be tempted to make the same mistake and suffer the consequences as I am now doing.

In an earlier posting on this thread dated Oct 25 I mentioned that I had opted not to follow the method suggested in the manual of installing and torqueing down the cylinder head before fitting the timing cover and I fear now that in doing so I have caused a whole series of other problems.

I had assumed that if the timing cover was dowelled to the front of the block then the top face which sits under the head gasket must sit at the correct height in relation to the top of the block.

It may have done when the engine left the factory but what I had forgotten to take into account is that my block was reconditioned some years ago and if the top of the block was skimmed and a little taken off without that timing cover being in place then the timing cover will not sit correctly in relation to the top of the block and it was little wonder that I noted a trace of oil in my posting of Dec 17. I never checked the top of the timing cover with a straight edge when I fitted it the first time some weeks ago for I just assumed it would be correct!

That was a very serious and probably an unforgivable mistake for the day after Christmas day I refitted the engine and subframe assembly – after fitting a new sump gasket, and connected up all the ancillaries, bled the brakes and clutch and rolled the car outside to fill the radiator with water and antifreeze only to discover a massive water leak in the head gasket immediately beside the No 1 exhaust port.

It was a depressing moment!! 24 hours later I had the whole engine and subframe out of the car again for although I removed the head in the car it became clear that the timing cover top face was sitting up above the block by about .007 of an inch (7 thou or 0.2mm) and although the head had been torqued down it had not sealed. Hence the oil weep noticed earlier and now the water coming out of the side of the gasket.

You might ask why I had to take the engine and subframe out again and not attempted to refit the timing cover and cylinder head while it sat in the car.

I work on my own and for those of us who have been well and truly earthquaked we now take as few risks as possible. My eldest son was working under a car which was sitting on four axle stands and had just come out from under it when the earthquake struck in February 2011. That earthquake which imparted a vertical acceleration of over 2G to everything, flicked that car up off its axle stands and it crushed the axle stands as it dropped back to the ground. The same earthquake lifted 26 story buildings up into the air as well and it is little wonder that they shattered when they dropped back down. It is a miracle that only 181 people were killed although many remained trapped in buildings for the internal staircases collapsed. Some 10,000 earthquakes later we are all very nervous about crawling under things and I refuse even now to leave my car in a car parking building. (Where many cars were trapped for several months after that February earthquake.

So with the engine and gearbox sitting out of the car it was relatively easy to remove the crankshaft pulley, remove the timing cover, fit my spare cylinder head gasket and bolt the head on before refitting the timing cover. However in my haste I did not torque the head down to the full 55 ft/lbs, only to about 30 ft/lbs before I refitted the timing cover.

That was another mistake!

After reinstalling the engine and subframe back into the car and refitting all the ancillaries the head still leaked. Off with the head again and it was clear that it had not seated correctly. So out the engine and subframe came yet again, and again the timing cover was removed and the head rebolted down and torqued down and left for an hour or two before refitting the timing cover.

After refitting the engine and subframe and installing the radiator and only connecting up the necessary hoses the engine was filled with water again. The leak is still there although it is leaking much less and it seems to be coming from somewhere between the first and second cylinder head bolts.

I have taken the engine and subframe out again and it will sit in the workshop for a couple of day before I decide what to do next.

Most businesses close for their annual holidays at this time of the year here in New Zealand and I doubt that my engine reconditioning specialist will reopen until the 14th of January. I may take the whole block and head assembly down to him and seek his advice on how to overcome this problem.

There has been some positives come out of this though. It takes me no more than 40 minutes to either refit or remove the engine and subframe from the car itself. In refitting the whole assembly I have modified and refined the dolly on which the engine and subframe sits and when the body is now lowered onto the dolly on which the subframe assembly is sitting it drops neatly into position with the gearbox mount sliding past the brake and petrol line under the car. With the front subframe mounts clear of the body by about an inch it is very easy to connect the bottom of the shock absorber into the top of the suspension before lowering the car right down onto the subframe. There is no drama, no chance of marking the paintwork and I smile when I note that the rather rough cut out in the left hand chassis rail which looks as if it was put there so that the back bolt in the exhaust manifold can pass by.

I would not attempt now to remove the gearbox or replace the clutch with the engine and subframe in the car for it is so quick and easy to remove the whole subframe assembly although it is necessary to sacrifice a little brake fluid. And so much safer.

A question: Here is a photo of the corner of the block in my car. What is the significance of these four markings shown here adjacent to the blue arrow? They look like the letter G repeated four times. The red arrow marks the approximate position of where the water is observed coming out of the side of the cylinder head gasket.

All this effort seems to have been wasted, all my summer holiday time lost, for it is normally the time of the year when we take to the hills to enjoy scenery like this. This is Mount Sefton one of the taller peaks in the Mount Cook National Park taken from across Lake Ohau. And this is Mount Cook, the tallest peak in New Zealand. Instead I have been working away seemingly getting nowhere trying to finish this Dolomite restoration so that we can enjoy motoring in this sort of country.

And when I read Jeroen’s last comments about cork versus paper gaskets and read some of the other threads in which he gives good practical advice I wondered for a moment whether I should import him here into New Zealand and help me overcome this problem which has now baffled me. He clearly has the wisdom and the experience to overcome the problems which I am now experiencing.

Jeroen what are you doing for the rest of the week?

Robert

I think Jeroen likes the dutch girls too much robert.

The patience you have to remove the engine over and over again is incredible. You must work very methodically.

But, I'm grateful for your post as like you, I have a skimmed head and probably also have an issue with the top of the timing cover sitting proud. Like you, I didn't check it either but fortunately I haven't had any water leaks, so fingers crossed. I reckon I put the timing cover on after I'd put the head on, so maybe I got lucky.

Point about the sump bolts being over tightened is also noted, thanks.

Good luck with the car, you have a deal more resilience than I do !

stu

straylight wrote:I think Jeroen likes the dutch girls too much robert.

stu

In a different way i do like kangaroo's too

Jeroen

The letters stamped on the block are the grade of piston used, G or F. If you look in the front of your Haynes (or whatever) manual you have it should show you the difference dimension wise. Left to right matches the bores 1-4. On the engine block I'm in the middle of refurbing the letters are G,G,F,F. The letters are also stamped on the top of the original pistons, which mine are.

When torquing the head I always go to 58 LB FT & some guys even go to 60. 55 is too low.

The block needs decking With timing cover attatched and a light skim on the cyl head
Only way to make sure all is flat,
If your worried about cr get the pistons decked also,
Plenty of meat on the top of the piston to have a few thou off.

Next time smear grease on the headgasket before assembly, it softens it slightly and helps it seal.
Use 58lb as a minimum, I go 65.

I must admit that when I prepared my last posting at the beginning of this month my patience was starting to run very thin and I was running out of ideas of what to do next.

Following that post, Jeroen was very kind and sent me a private message with an e-mail address and has since gone to a great deal of trouble offering me advice and suggestions as to what to do. I really appreciate the support he has given me.

DF was close to the mark when he suggested that I have the block and timing cover decked and that this would fix the problem. And Dan’s comments about using a smear of grease was helpful too.

When I had the block checked at the engine reconditioners last week it was clear that the timing cover which I was using had not been machined when the block was reconditioned more than 20 years ago for the timing cover was sitting above the block and so not allowing the head to seat properly. The block had been decked prior to fitting of some very fine copper o-rings but the timing cover, while it sat flush with the block where the blue arrow is marked was sitting 0.008 of an inch (0.2mm) above the block where I have indicated with the red arrow. It was this that was preventing the head seating properly and allowing the water to leak.

The cover was re-machined last week and the engine rebuilt last Friday and the cylinder head rebolted back onto the block using a British Leyland marked head gasket which was liberally coated with copper gasket spray before I bolted it down. The engine was left sitting over the weekend after the head had been torqued down to 55 ft/lbs and then re-torqued to 60 ft/lbs on Monday before a pressure check was carried out on the head and block assembly.

It seems to have seated correctly and has now been reinstalled in the car.

As I have explained in an earlier posting very fine, Will’s type, copper o-rings were fitted in the block when it was originally overhauled. These cannot be removed at this time but the engine reconditioner checked them and explained that this was and still is, a common modification used on high performance engines in this country. They must be used in conjunction with a standard composite head gasket for the copper rings crush down into the gasket itself. He is satisfied that this was not the cause of the head not seating correctly and that all the problems relate to the mismatch between the block and the timing cover.

Only time will tell!

So at 11.15am this morning after having reinstalled the complete engine and subframe assembly in the car yet again, and after turning the engine over without spark plugs fitted until the oil pressure built up, I primed the carburettors, fitted the spark plugs and the engine burst into life. I have run it several times very briefly during the day without any water in the engine to allow the heat to soak into the head gasket and copper gasket spray.

Tomorrow I will fill the engine with water, check the carburettor mounting gaskets for air leaks (it is not idling correctly yet) and run it again and attempt to get the engine to idle at its correct speed. Oil pressure was a healthy 55lbs/in.

While the engine was out of the car this time I remade the sump gasket out of a proper paper gasket material and abandoned the idea of using a composite cork material. I have also made a couple of top hat bushings which I have fitted inside the two larger diameter 5/8 of an inch holes that pass down through the block to the sump. Now it should be impossible to pull the sump up into these holes and I will be most interested to see if I have been able to fix the leaking sump problem which I found earlier.

Progress has been made!!! At long last.

Robert

good news Rob, well done.

A week ago I reported that I had started the engine! Well that was a milestone and one that put a huge smile on my face, the thought and confirmation that the engine might actually run. I have driven 3 miles since then up and down the drive to this property for as yet the car has not gone through its Warrant of Fitness check, the equivalent to your MOT, and until it has passed that check it cannot be registered to drive on the road.

I filled the engine very carefully following all the instructions about having the heater set on hot and measuring in 3 litres of water, then two litres of anti-freeze and then topping it up and filling the overflow tank to half full. Then pumping the top hose to expel any residual air. And then set to, to follow Jon’s very detailed and indeed very helpful instructions on how to set up the carburettors.

I think I have the idle mixture set pretty close to ideal now and I think I have the two carbs roughly in balance but the old experienced mechanic who will do my Warrant of Fitness check will also check them for he has had many years experience in tuning SU’s and other carburettors. Timing has been set at 10 degrees. It starts almost instantaneously.

But after my first reasonably long run, with the engine up to temperature and with the oil pressure sitting at around the 30psi mark I turned the engine off and it promptly spat a lot of water out of the overflow tank. Was it an airlock? It had me really worried so the following morning after thinking through the likely possible faults, head gaskets not sealing and so on, I carried out a series of compression tests, firstly cold then after I had warmed the engine up. With the engine well warmed the readings were 153, 170, 173, and 170psi. So I am fairly confident that the head gasket has sealed.

After the second long run it repeated the performance of spitting out water out of the overflow tank, so I have now been running with a temporary catch tank (an old plastic milk bottle) and touch wood it seems to have settled down. I have run the engine up to temperature and left it idling and stopped and allowed the engine to cool again. I have repeated this several times now.

Maybe it was just a great big airlock in the heater matrix.

I have fitted the gearbox cover, and fitted the gearlever and battled trying to get the anti rattle plunger and spring in the base of the gearlever. I had ordered a new spring and plunger from Rimmers but I suspect the spring they have supplied is too long. So I broke open an old ball point pen with a spring of about the right diameter, shortened it so that the plunger was just sitting in the drilling in the base of the gearlever, and managed to get it to sit correctly.

I had done a search on this Forum and the only reference I could find to this plunger and spring was in a query that MikeyB raised during the restoration of VA 969. Mike like Jeroen and Stu has been very prompt in replying to PM’s and it seems most do not bother to fit this little spring and plunger. Perhaps that is why there wasn’t one in my stock of spares, it was not there when I dismantled the car.

With that done I felt I should press on and finish trimming the car. Realising of course that I may have to undo things if the engine is to come out yet again. The dashboard was installed, the lower parcel tray fitted along with a home made radio surround and oil gauge. The oil gauge was fitted by the previous owner but screwed to the parcel tray and I wanted to keep it so that I could monitor the oil pressure. So again by scanning numerous photos on this Forum I was able to get a pretty fair idea of what the factory fitted in the UK. I do not expect to listen to the radio, I rarely do, but it seemed sensible to find a period AM/FM radio and mount the oil gauge beside it. Then I fitted the carpets, and the seats and at long last could imagine what it might feel like to drive on the open road.

I have set the headlamps and checked the operation of all the lights. I have fitted the seat belts and today I fitted the windscreen. It was one of the last jobs to do for it has been so convenient to be able to start the car by leaning through the windscreen opening, and being able to stop it at will.

The very last job will be to fit the bonnet.

There are some little faults already evident. The viscous fan seemed to have an intermittent vibration in it. It comes and then goes. Both the pulley bearing behind it and the bearing in the fan itself seem to be fine and today, it’s been a very warm day here with the temperature reaching 30 degrees, it seems to have settled down.

The rear shock absorbers seem to be loose in the top mounting plate. So I will have to drop them out and check what I did when I mounted the back axle 20 years ago. I remember picking up comment in what was then called the DSR News about the necessity of getting the top mounting plate and rubber cushion all in the correct orientation. This will be an opportunity to check again.

I will book the car in for its Warrant of Fitness check on Friday I think. It will be the first time that I will have driven it on the open road. I am legally entitled to drive it to get it checked although I doubt that my insurance cover will be valid.

Nearly there? We will wait and see.

Robert

congratulations again Rob, good news

[The rear shock absorbers seem to be loose in the top mounting plate. So I will have to drop them out and check what I did when I mounted the back axle 20 years ago. I remember picking up comment in what was then called the DSR News about the necessity of getting the top mounting plate and rubber cushion all in the correct orientation. This will be an opportunity to check again.

I had a battle with my rear shock mounts as well. After fixing the damage I did when I uprated my rear springs during the resto, I found that the shock bolts were able to move about 2mm inside the mounting plate, due to the dished washers meeting in the middle and not grabbing the plate properly. It is hard to notice, since the compression of the spring holds the plate firmly. But once weight comes off the spring, when the car is rebounding, the upper edge of the dished washer was contacting the plate and making a horrible clanking sound. I think it is unlikely to be the orientation of the mounts, it is all but impossible to get the springs back into the car the wrong way round. Just a thought.

stu

The car was taken for its Warrant of Fitness examination today and the examiner, Paul, remarked that it looked like a new car he was inspecting. As well he might when I think of the countless hours of cleaning, fettling and replacing of parts that went into this restoration.

The car has now been issued with its Warrant of Fitness, or as it is called here a “WOF”! So an hour later I visited the local Post Office and purchased 6 months registration. It is now legal to drive on the open road.

However……!

There are tasks to do. 20 or so years ago I fitted a set of new Koni 80 (D) Series) adjustable shock absorbers into the rear of the car. They have been sat pretty much fully extended all that time so I am not holding my breath that the seals have survived. Indeed it was clear from driving them to the WOF testing garage and back that there was a rattle in the back end which can be seen when looking into the boot and bouncing the car very gently. The top “pin”, the top of the spear of the shock absorber, which is visible from within the car was moving up and down – as if the two nuts on the pin were loose and which also gave the appearance that the top rubber bush was not fully compressed.

The nuts were not loose!

I have now dropped the shock absorber assemblies out of the car and examined them on the bench. All seems to be in order but of course with no weight on the assemblies the top rubbers are now fully compressed. There is also some evidence of some pitting on the shock absorber spears suggesting that whilst they have not done any work they may not be useable anyway.

Like others before me, there are still many tasks to do before I will actually be able to drive and enjoy the car.

Paul has suggested that I bring the car back to him on Monday and he will check and align the front suspension, set the headlights and carry out a tune on the carburettors. Which suits me just fine for I shall be down at Lake Ohau until Thursday enjoying the mountain scenery and doing some work around one of the houses in the mountain village.

Jeroen will be pleased to learn that Paul commented that the first thing he will be checking is the float levels in the two carbs. Paul recognises something that Jeroen has already pointed out to me in a PM and that is that because the engine does not sit on the level that the float levels in both carburettors will have to be adjusted to ensure that they match. It may be a small and perhaps an insignificant point but it does give me confidence in Paul’s ability to get the best possible tune out of the carburettors.

I suspect there is another reason why Paul would like me to leave the car with him for a day or two and that is it will give him a chance to look more closely at the work I have done. That too gives me confidence, for I bet he will find a loose bolt or two somewhere.

As it is, he says he already has in mind another car which might be worthy of a restoration…! I haven’t finished this one and I have a lot of driving to do. He is trying to talk me into another project.

Still a few things to do on this car but that list (of things to do) seem to be getting less. I hope so.

Robert