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lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:46 pm
by bluetriumphsteve
Probably one question that gets asked a lot
I'm converting my dolly 1850 to lumenition optronic ignition, so great stuff on the reliability front, however 2 questions
1) Dollys work with on a 6v ign coil, lumenition coil from rimmers is 12v, do I still fit the 12v lumenition coil and all will be fine? or do I need to buy a 6v?
2) The lumenition coil supplyed by Rimmers has a ballest resister, should this be fitted? If so how should it be wired up?
Cheers
Steve
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:50 pm
by vitessesteve
I have a page on my website you may find useful:
http://vitessesteve.co.uk/IgnitionBallastRemoval it was borrowed from the now sadly dead dollywiki.
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:12 pm
by bluetriumphsteve
Cheers mate,
That's saved me alot of hassle
Steve
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:37 pm
by soe8m
Only too bad the article is not right.
Jeroen.
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:22 am
by bluetriumphsteve
Hi Jeroen,
Whats wrong with it?
Cheers
Steve
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:59 pm
by soe8m
It all starts with the first sentence of the article.
Jeroen.
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:36 pm
by bluetriumphsteve
Have pm you if you could give any further advise
Cheers
Steve
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:10 pm
by MIG Wielder
Hi Steve, This should be a very easy question to answer.
Certainly my initial reply would have been " Fit a 12V non-ballasted coil connected to the +12V IGN ON supply on the fuse box ". I actually have a Lumenition Optronic unit on my 1850 with a standard 12V coil and it works fine.
Now when you read the Lumenition data sheet ,it says specifically
" Not suitable for less than 3 ohm coils . Do not use with coils less than 1 ohm "
It also says "Maximum permissable ignition current 7A "
Ref; 1 here.
https://www.gsparkplug.com/media/wysiwy ... lation.pdf
So if you have a 1.5 ohm coil and stop the engine when hot with a fresh charged battery at 14.5V the peak starting current will be 14.5V/ 1.5ohm = 9.6A .This exceeds the maximum 7A rating.
But there is another Lumenition note !
https://www.gsparkplug.com/media/wysiwy ... iption.pdf
This says a similar thing....
"The ignition coil resistance (including ballast resistor if one is fitted) should be about 3 ohms and no lower than 2.5 ohms".
So 1.5 ohm ballasted coils are a no-no.
However it goes on to say .....
The Lumenition product range includes a coil specifically designed for Optronic ignitions. The MS4 coil is a 1.5 ohm coil complete with a 1.5 ohm ballast resistor and is ideal for this system.
This doesn't agree with the first statement about the coil resistance being no lower than 2.5 ohms.
Unless what they are intending is the ballast resistor switch connection is disconnected from the starter motor, so it runs at 1/2 battery voltage all the time.
Luckily the 2nd document has an e-mail enquiry line.
Any volunteers to ask the question and post it back on here ?
HTH,
Tony.
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:17 pm
by MIG Wielder
I had a read through this and it read O.K. to my simple mind. Technically accurate. Presented an alternative to ballasted systems.
The only possible gripe is the numbering of the Ignition coils. Ask for a DLBxxx on E-Bay etc; and you are likely not to get what you asked for. For instance if you ask for a 12V , 3.5ohm coil unballasted you will get "You can have a high energy coil for an extra tenner " and it will be 1.5 ohms when it arrives.
Can you list some specifics please Jeroen ?
Ta,
Tony.
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:21 pm
by soe8m
I think i did end the last 10 of 5236 posts about coils was fit whatever coil you like.
I will sum up my main conclusions.
A ballasted system is better than the unballasted system.
A whole lot of German, Japanese, Italien and British cars of the '70s and '80s had a ballasted system but ofcourse you still can think it does not work and even BL liked to pay extra for this option on all their cars without the need.
Use a Bosch coil, the best and most consistent.
Never had any issues with ballasted systems and DECENT electronic ignition conversions.
If the ballasted system does not work on your dolomite have some maintenance or use an extra relay and seperate resistor.
These are only my own experiences and others may have their own.
Jeroen
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:06 pm
by Galileo
As Jeroen says, nothing wrong with a ballasted coil, far from it, they are better than an unballasted system which is why most manufacturers moved to a ballasted coil before EFI took over.
Never fitted any of the Autocar ignition kits, too pricey for my liking, though many years ago I did make my own 'electronic ignition' from scratch to fit to a Triumph 2000 but that was pretty basic and kept the contacts. So a quick read of the manufacturers website and coil choice depends on the model of kit fitted. Here's a subsection of the technical document they provide:
IGNITION COILS
There are three major types of ignition coil - Conventional un-ballasted, conventional ballasted and
constant energy. Lumenition have ignition system compatible with all three coils types however the
correct coil must be used on each system. Failure to select the correct coil may lead to poor
performance or even premature failure of the power module.
Lumenition technical bulletin No.3 describes in detail each type of coil but the following can be used as
a general rule.
Conventional un-ballasted coils.
These are for use in ignition system that do not have a ballast resistor. The coils usually have a
resistance in the range of 2.5 to 3 ohms. These coils are suitable for use with PMA 50, PMA 60 and
PMAZ.
Note: for these systems the coil MUST NOT have a resistance less than 2.5 ohms. Coils with lower
resistance will induce premature failure of the Optronic power module
Conventional ballasted coils
These have a resistance in the range of 1.2 - 1.5 ohms and MUST be used with a 1.5 ohm ballast
resistor. They are suitable for use with PMA 50 PMA 60 and PMAZ.
Consent energy coils <-I think they mean constant!
These are often referred to as ‘electronic’ coils i.e.a coil for use with an electronic ignition system.
They have a resistance of about 0.7 ohms. The low resistance gives a very fast recharge time and is
therefore excellent for performance and high speed running. These coils are compatible with
Lumenition Performance Ignition system CEK 150, CEK160, CEA150 and CEA160 products.
NOTE, Low resistance electronic coils are totally unsuitable for use with Lumenition PMA50, PMA 60
and PMAZ. Use of a low resistance coil on these systems will cause the power module or the coil to
fail – or both!
The key points I'd take away from that is.
- Use a coil that suits the model of kit.
- There is no issue with retaining the ballast, and in fact this is probably a good idea for cold weather starts but ensure that you check the condition of the solenoid connection on the starter to make sure that it is in good condition and if not sort it out first.
- If retaining a ballast then power the module from a direct 12v feed - not hard with the fuse box just a few cm away.
That's my two pennies worth anyway!
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:41 pm
by bluetriumphsteve
All great info thanks guys,
So if I wire from the fuse box to the ballest then to the coil, will that be ok with the system I'm using?
The following parts I have below from Rimmers
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GCL132MS
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RB7133
Cheers
Steve
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:45 pm
by Galileo
That's odd, unless I'm missing something then from your link RB are selling the MS4 for £57 and yet the manufacturer sell it for £37.20?
The Coil
The original coil is 1.5ohms with a ballasted feed also of 1.5ohms. The MS4 you have bought mirrors this setup, so you can retain the existing coil +VE feed from the solenoid as it is and put the supplied ballast resistor in a drawer, so that you can ponder about where it came from and what it fits in 5 years time.
White/Yellow and whatever colour KW is from the solenoid (too cold to go out and look, and that's all it says in my wiring diagram!) should be the only two wires connected to +VE on the coil.
White slate (for the tachometer) and the new modules brown (or violet) wire should be the only two wires connected to -VE on the coil.
The Module
Run the new modules red lead to a 12v feed from an unfused ignition live terminal in the fuse box (terminal 3, white leads, would be good). You will also need to connect the modules black lead directly to earth.
That's how I would do it, hope that helps!
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:12 pm
by bluetriumphsteve
Excellent stuff, thanks so much for that. Just one issue, I have changed the starter motor to a hi torque starter and discarded one of the wires from it. Will this make any difference?
Cheers
Steve
Re: lumenition coil 6v or 12v
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:49 pm
by Carledo
bluetriumphsteve wrote:Excellent stuff, thanks so much for that. Just one issue, I have changed the starter motor to a hi torque starter and discarded one of the wires from it. Will this make any difference?
Cheers
Steve
Yes it WILL make a big difference! the wire you have discarded is the ballast resist override wire that gives you the full 12v when cranking.
I've been noodling this problem recently for another customer who has gone hi-tork but kept ballasted ignition. My solution, push button start! I got one of those aftermarket kits off ebay with all the wiring and a relay and plumbed it up as per instructions then added a second wire from the output side of the relay to coil +ve. This gives you the 12v for cold starting, reduces wear on the ignition switch, provides a relay for the start wire, reducing load on the circuitry and (possibly best of all) gives you the satisfaction of starting the car by pushing a big red button! I guess you could just put a relay in the key operated start wire circuit, or join a second lead into the start wire out of the switch, but where would be the fun in that?
Steve
Of course, you could just opt for the permanent 12v solution and do away with the ballast! (dives for cover)