1971 2 door Toledo - a very long hibernation

[2door-toledo]

With reference to the earlier valance being shallower, I don't think this is necessarily correct, as far as I am aware there is only a single part number for each Dolomite and Toledo front wing. I.e they did not change them requiring a new number, and as both early and late valances would need to meet the wings at the same point I do not see how one could be shallower than the other.

Thank you DOLOMITE135, that's very helpful. I fully agree with you about the wings, they are the same so hard to imagine how the valance could be different.

I raided my photo collection and found these, not sure of these help to confirm if there was a lip or not!

Cheers again

[Carledo]

Your top photo above shows the original issue, early Toledo front valance, complete with holes for the (cost option) front under rider brackets. This was the stock issue valance for Dolomite, 1500FWD and Toledo models, pre Sprint. I can't find the original part number for this as my oldest Toledo parts list is from late '73. Once the Sprint made production, around March 73 (with the spoiler as standard) the Sprint's valance became universal, this was part number 814529, which had holes for under rider brackets AND the spoiler mounts and was in turn superceded by XKC504 at the advent of the "series 2" Sprint (VA15000>) around September of 75. This valance had spoiler mount holes but none for under riders. One of my parts lists also gives an (inked in) possible part number for the valance of ZKC 2657 which, I think, is a final part number and just a superceded NUMBER without any change to the part.

So there are, or were, 3 distinct valances, but, as far as I am aware, their shapes and profiles were the same, the only differences being in the hole details. Not that ANY of them are common now, but the one you are most likely to come across NOS is the XKC504/ZKC2657 variant as these were produced long after the car itself went out of production, the other 2 being dropped from production when superceded. The NOS one I have has a manufacture date label from 1989!

HTH Steve

[2door-toledo]

Thanks Steve. This leaves me a bit confused because my 1971/1972 Toledo parts book lists 814529 as the part



The 1973 parts book lists 814529 and XKC0504 however the area where it says which commission numbers it applies to is blank. Hmm.



I wish I'd noticed this before I sent it to the bodyshop, they were only supposed to be attaching the front wings and painting it

[Carledo]

814529 is given in my 75 Sprint parts list as correct for early Sprint models, which all HAD the spoiler, so the lip would be there on that valance. Now it has been my ASSUMPTION that that valance would be predrilled for the spoiler, seeing as all Sprint models had a spoiler. Certainly the later XKC 504 valance comes predrilled as one was fitted as OE on my Dec 73 built Toledo, despite it not having a spoiler!

However, I guess it's possible that the earlier 814529 valance came without the holes and you had to drill them yourself if you had a Sprint! Maybe someone like MikeyB, who has meticulously restored more than one very early car, can confirm or deny this!

I have the same 73 issue Toledo parts book as you do and it is similarly silent with regard to the comm number change point from 814529 to XKC504. But my guess is that it happened at the same time as the big Toledo facelift which happened around the middle of 73, which included the conversion from drum to disc front brakes and was denoted by the change in Comm number prefix from ADG to ADH (2 door) and ADF to ADK (4 door). Interestingly, this is much earlier than the 75 change point indicated for the Sprint.

Steve

Edit, just gone back through this thread to find out WHY all the controversy about valances. Just to clarify there is NO extra lip on later, spoiler fit valances the lower edges are all the same shape! Toledos just look a bit naked at the front to folk used to the spoiler hiding the subframe from view! TBH I wouldn't bother going to all the trouble of having the holes made in your freshly painted valance, they serve no useful purpose for your car. If I had a quid for every early Sprint i've seen with a later valance retrofitted......... Well lets just say my respray would be a lot nearer than it is!

S

[DOLOMITE 135]

It appears I have opened a can of worms!

My understanding of the valances is as follows:

Part Number 814529
The original front valance, holes for the front under riders and front triumph badge included, no mountings for a spoiler.

Used on very early Dolomites and Toledos, don't know about the 1500FWD.


Part Number XKC0504
Holes for the front under riders and front triumph badge included, mountings for a spoiler.

Used on early 4 Headlamp shells (Dolomites, Sprints. 1500) and Toledos.


Part Number ZKC2657
No holes for the front under riders and front triumph badge included, mountings for a spoiler.

Used on Dolomites and very late Toledos, introduced sometime in 1975 / 76

Most new old stock valances are likely to be these as they continued to be made sometime after production stopped.


Regarding the lip or lack thereof for mounting the spoiler, my Toledo is fitted with part number XKC0504 (November 1974 build), so the middle of the three known valance variations, it has the under rider holes, badge holes and mountings for a spoiler. If you look at it closely you will spot two design elements which I think are pertinent, firstly when looking from the wheel arch down on to the valance wing join the valance protrudes approx 25mm further back horizontally, secondly if you look at the valance from below corresponding to this extra 25mm there is a swage line running the width of the panel. I have included a couple of photos of my Toledo below to illustrate this (both panels are the original items on the car).







Please excuse the dirt, but I believe in using my car all year round and it was cleaned on the weekend.


If you look at period photos of the very early cars (J reg or thereabouts), I have not been able to see the swage line running across the width of the valance, and it appears the valance ends in line with the wheel arch. I could be wrong but I believe the valance was extended back approx 25mm, and the mountings added for the spoiler to change part 814529 into XKC0504. This I believe is why the valance protrudes further back in relation to the wing than you would expect, rather than retool the wings Triumph just added a chamfer to the edge of the valance.

The next problem is when was the change made, and what is appropriate for a K reg Toledo, it looks to me like the valance in this picture below if you extrapolate the edge to take into account the missing section would be in line with the back of the wing.




What do others think? I would probably leave the unit fitted alone though and not try to replicate this feature however.

Edit:

Just found this on line, it looks to me that the valance lip is in line with the wheel arch (click to enlarge):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31411679@N08/34583171170

Someone should have word with them about their sidelight / indicator units.

[Carledo]

It appears I have opened a can of worms!

My understanding of the valances is as follows:

Part Number 814529
The original front valance, holes for the front under riders and front triumph badge included, no mountings for a spoiler.

Used on very early Dolomites and Toledos, don't know about the 1500FWD.

As far as I can tell, this is universal to the entire range INCLUDING the SPRINT. It is listed in my Sept 75 Sprint parts list as being correct for all Sprints up to VA 15000 (around the publication date of the book Sept 75) In fact the series 1 Sprint only went to about VA10450, then a gap was left and series 2 production began at VA15000 with the XKC0504 valance as OE. Not sure what they did at the factory, but i'm fairly sure that replacement valances of ANY part number didn't come with holes for the upper nose badge, OR the centre one, which MAY account for the considerable disparity in position of this badge between individual cars. Further to this theory, I recently got hold of a NOS Toledo bootlid which had NO holes predrilled for any of the badges or moulding strip fitting clips. Not wanting to build in any more rust traps, I left the strip moulding off and removed the pins and stuck the badges on with double sided tape!


Part Number XKC0504
Holes for the front under riders and front triumph badge included, mountings for a spoiler.

Used on early 4 Headlamp shells (Dolomites, Sprints. 1500) and Toledos.

Despite the picture in the parts list showing them, XKC0504 does NOT have holes for under rider brackets. I'm a little confused as to why your Nov 74 car has these holes and my Dec 73 car didn't! I removed the rotten remains of mine to fit a club GRP one and i'm certain it wasn't a later replacement, all the spotwelds checked out as original.


Part Number ZKC2657
No holes for the front under riders and front triumph badge included, mountings for a spoiler.

Used on Dolomites and very late Toledos, introduced sometime in 1975 / 76

Most new old stock valances are likely to be these as they continued to be made sometime after production stopped.

As far as I can ascertain, this is XKC 0504 just with a different number and purely a book keeping excercise during BL rationalisation. The NOS one of these that I have, dating from 1989 (sticker still legible) has no holes for under riders OR ANY nose badge, does have holes for spoiler but no really noticeable swage at the lower edge, just a very faint crease at the outer edges where the valance flares a bit to equal the wing length. I'll try and get some pics when there's daylight but the brown primer finish doesn't make it easy to get precision pics.


Regarding the lip or lack thereof for mounting the spoiler, my Toledo is fitted with part number XKC0504 (November 1974 build), so the middle of the three known valance variations, it has the under rider holes, badge holes and mountings for a spoiler. If you look at it closely you will spot two design elements which I think are pertinent, firstly when looking from the wheel arch down on to the valance wing join the valance protrudes approx 25mm further back horizontally, secondly if you look at the valance from below corresponding to this extra 25mm there is a swage line running the width of the panel. I have included a couple of photos of my Toledo below to illustrate this (both panels are the original items on the car).







Please excuse the dirt, but I believe in using my car all year round and it was cleaned on the weekend.


If you look at period photos of the very early cars (J reg or thereabouts), I have not been able to see the swage line running across the width of the valance, and it appears the valance ends in line with the wheel arch. I could be wrong but I believe the valance was extended back approx 25mm, and the mountings added for the spoiler to change part 814529 into XKC0504. This I believe is why the valance protrudes further back in relation to the wing than you would expect, rather than retool the wings Triumph just added a chamfer to the edge of the valance.

The next problem is when was the change made, and what is appropriate for a K reg Toledo, it looks to me like the valance in this picture below if you extrapolate the edge to take into account the missing section would be in line with the back of the wing.

I reckon the correct valance for a 72 car would be 814529, but I too would leave well alone, now that it's painted!

[DOLOMITE 135]

I think we risk a bit of thread drift here and I do not want to detract from project Ernie to much, but I do think there were three distinct valances.

To reply to your points:

[quote=Carledo
Part Number 814529
It is listed in my Sept 75 Sprint parts list as being correct for all Sprints up to VA 15000 (around the publication date of the book Sept 75)

Reviewing my graphic catalogues gives the following time line:
Dolomite graphic catalogue publication no.520502, (no date probably first issue) States only 814529
Toledo graphic catalogue publication no.519932, (no date probably first issue) States only 814529
Toledo TS graphic catalogue publication no.RTC9102, dated December 1974 States only XKC0504 (which makes sense as if produced it would not have had the early valance).
Toledo parts catalogue publication no.NKC0432/B, dated May 1975 States 814529 & XKC0504
1500RWD parts catalogue publication no.RTC9019/A dated August 1975 States XKC0504 (the rear wheel 1500 was introduced in October 73 so the superseding of 814529 pre dates this).
Dolomite (pre HL) parts catalogue publication no.520502/C dated September 1975 States 814529 & XKC0504
Dolomite range 1976 onwards no.RTC9822 CB dated February 1981 States ZKC2657

To me this gives a time line for the use of 814529 from introduction to sometime prior to October 73 (probably around the introduction of the sprint), XKC0504 to the range consolidation around 75 /76, and ZKC2657 for the final parts. So in this case I think the Sprint parts book is wrong.


[quote=Carledo
As far as I can ascertain, this is XKC 0504 just with a different number and purely a book keeping excercise during BL rationalisation.

Reviewing the earliest and latest parts catalogues, the only changes to the page for the front end panels of the Toledo /Dolomite is the addition of under wing mud shields, and revised part numbers for the front valance, no other panels have their numbers changed.


[quote=Carledo
Not sure what they did at the factory, but i'm fairly sure that replacement valances of ANY part number didn't come with holes for the upper nose badge, OR the centre one, which MAY account for the considerable disparity in position of this badge between individual cars. Further to this theory, I recently got hold of a NOS Toledo bootlid which had NO holes predrilled for any of the badges or moulding strip fitting clips.

Some time ago I had a discussion on here with xvi valve regarding the chassis legs that run either side of the gearbox tunnel, to cut a long story short it became apparent that the parts he had were incomplete and not finished, a quick Google throws up images of NOS front panels with the holes for the nose badge so perhaps yours missed having the nose badge holes punched out. As for the boot lid is it a 1300 FWD item as they have less trim? As an aside my Dolomite had a replacement (new) front drivers side wing fitted at sometime, this had the holes for the sill trim clips, but no hole for the bumper mounting!


[quote=Carledo
Despite the picture in the parts list showing them, XKC0504 does NOT have holes for under rider brackets. I'm a little confused as to why your Nov 74 car has these holes and my Dec 73 car didn't! I removed the rotten remains of mine to fit a club GRP one and i'm certain it wasn't a later replacement, all the spotwelds checked out as original.

My January 1975 build Dolomite (pre HL) was also built with holes for under rider brackets (and has the earlier under riders fitted). As far as I know all Dolomites and Toledos would have had them until 75 /76. As the two door Toledos were dropped from the range before this, all would have been built with the holes, so I suspect your rotten original would have have been subject to some repair prior to you replacing it.

[quote=Carledo
just a very faint crease at the outer edges where the valance flares a bit to equal the wing length. I'll try and get some pics when there's daylight but the brown primer finish doesn't make it easy to get precision pics.

One of the problems with Dolomites towards the end of production was panel fit due to worn tooling (noticed the rear door to rear wing gap on later Dolomites?), so the fact that the panel line on the bottom of your NOS valance is very faint does not surprise me as the Tooling was probably on its last legs.

[2door-toledo]

Thanks all, it's an interesting conversation anyway. I do quite like some archaeology It's quite interesting when you're trying to reassemble a car that was taken apart decades ago with hardly any photos and mostly just a pile of rust anyway.

I do still have the centre bit of the valance as it was cut out, not sure what happened to the rest.



Which is the bit you see at the bottom of



I think I am going to leave it as it is. Although I am trying to get it as close as I possibly can to the day that it rolled out of the factory, I think I have to focus on more important things. I'm reassembly the front suspension right now.

[2door-toledo]

I picked up some NOS left and right hand side early-style grills a little while ago. One of them was repatriated from Spain.



Hopefully the car will be back from the body shop in the next few weeks so I have to get the running gear finished (only been working on it since July, but I wasn't happy with the first attempt and started again). I'm fairly happy with how it's turned out being painted with epoxy mastic from rust.co.uk

Before


Now






I haven't painted the subframe yet but I've mostly prepped it for painting, I was just waiting to buy some soda blasting gear so that I could get to some areas that I was struggling with. Should have done this earlier, I spent many hours with a wire brush..



But I noticed that the radius rod hole was a little elongated, so I will try to weld this first.



I'll replace the wheel bearings as I might as well. I'd like to paint the front hubs a bit but not sure how to tackle this yet, as I don't want to get paint into where the studs go.



The D washers are a bit worn, is this normal or indicative of an issue?



The stub axle attaches to the vertical link using thin nyloc TN3212 which isn't widely available, but I got one from Stag specialist LDpart.



The main annoyance is that the Brake Engineering brake cylinders that Rimmer Bros supply as GWC603 and GWC604 don't fit, GWC603 is fine but GWC604 is too large to fit in the hole in the backplate.

GWC604



Only a few mm in it, but the new ones are definitely bigger than the new GWC603 and the originals.



Difference in shape compared to the original. I haven't decided what I'm going to do here yet.

[DOLOMITE 135]

The refurbished suspension looks very good, did you paint it yourself, if so what did you use?
However the drag struts look like they were also worn when they were in contact with your subframe, it would be a good idea to check them.

Your subframe is interesting as the later units have additional brackets to brace the upper wishbones.
The picture of your suspension pre-restoration shows original upper ball joints (identified by the bolt head / washer on the top), if you still have them these can be refurbished so are worth keeping.

All the D washers I have seen have the same wear pattern.

With regards to the valance would you like the measurements of the position of the under rider holes?
Even if you intend to leave your valance as is, your original valance might still be able to confirm what part was originally fitted, I have photographed one of my spare valances (Part Number ZKC2657), if you are able to photograph your valance remains in a similar position it might be possible to compare them for differences and confirm if it had spoiler mountings.

[2door-toledo]

The refurbished suspension looks very good, did you paint it yourself, if so what did you use?
However the drag struts look like they were also worn when they were in contact with your subframe, it would be a good idea to check them.

Thanks DOLOMITE 135. I painted the suspension myself using epoxy mastic from rust.co.uk. Took me a long time but I'm fairly happy with the final finish and I'm hoping it will be more resilient and easier to touch up than power coating. I've never done it so it's not perfect, but it's better than hand painted hammerite.

You are right that the drag struts themselves are a little worn too, unfortunately I only found this out in the last few days by reading one of the Mad Mart restoration threads. I assumed they were meant to be like that - as I have said many times I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing As I've painted them my chosen strategy is to ignore the problem for the moment, I simply have to get the running gear into a state where it can be bolted onto the car to get it back from the body shop. Once I've finished the front suspension, which is fairly close, I need to work on the rear axle, which is scarier. I can worry about it later during the refit.

Your subframe is interesting as the later units have additional brackets to brace the upper wishbones.
The picture of your suspension pre-restoration shows original upper ball joints (identified by the bolt head / washer on the top), if you still have them these can be refurbished so are worth keeping.

Thanks, I didn't know there was a difference. I'll keep an eye out for the original upper ball joints, I suspect that they are in boxes in the garage. I'm not expecting these modern parts to last wrong!

All the D washers I have seen have the same wear pattern.

Good to know thanks, I'll buy some more from Chris Witor.

With regards to the valance would you like the measurements of the position of the under rider holes?
Even if you intend to leave your valance as is, your original valance might still be able to confirm what part was originally fitted, I have photographed one of my spare valances (Part Number ZKC2657), if you are able to photograph your valance remains in a similar position it might be possible to compare them for differences and confirm if it had spoiler mountings.

Thank you fo the photo, it helps me understand what you were referring to. Unfortunately I can only find the central bit of the valance, which I posted in a pic above - the valance was replaced some time in the early 2000s, I'm not sure what happened to the rest of it. It's not like my dad to have thrown it out, but it doesn't seem to be here! I would say don't worry about the measurements, but appreciated the offer cheers

[DOLOMITE 135]

It's understandable you need to fit the drag struts as is to get your Toledo mobile, it might though be best to Red Tag them as unserviceable to remind you to revisit them, or alternatively if you have a job list add the task to that.

With reference to the valance, I did note your new picture of the valance remains, but unfortunately the angle of the shot doesn't show the bottom of the valance from an angle where we can confirm its design features, hence why I asked if it was possible to photograph it from a similar angle to my photo.

[2door-toledo]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been a little unwell since before Christmas. I am not sure there is enough left of the front valance to determine any features, but maybe this will help!





Meanwhile I've been trying to get the rear hubs off with the Canley classics puller... but taken a retreat until I can buy a pipe wrench and the air impact gun arrives.



Thanks

[2door-toledo]

Enough on the front suspension for a bit, I wanted to take a look at the rear suspension. Having never done it before, the procedure in the manual instilled a fair bit of fear... in the end, it turned out not to be too bad.

James467 previously wrote about his experiences with RUK here.

The first step is to remove the hub nut and washer, this is supposed to be tightened to 120 lb ft but with a breaker bar (not pictured) it loosened very easily, with a wedge to stop the hub spinning.



This nut is 15/16", which is probably the only size I don't have.



24mm - naughty, but close enough - I'll replace the nut anyway.



Next, on with the hub puller - this is the Canley classics one which I do not recommend - it's circular, so nothing to grip onto to stop it rotating. Other variants are available from other sources such as TSSC which are squared off to attach suitable tools to. Tighten up the wheel nuts, you can put a fair amount of force just by doing these up - make sure you do it up nice and square.



As the damn thing is round, I struggled to get enough grip with a breaker bar, so onto the air tools. An air impact wrench did a good job.



If the hub doesn't come off of its own accord, the trick is apparently (well, it worked for me) give the puller a few whacks on the side with the hammer - at which point it should fall off. The first side took me a few days of messing around, I did the other side in a few minutes



Next unbolt the backplate, this was very easy, the bolts weren't seized at all - I'm sure a nice oil leak over the years helped here



Now you can lever off the outer seal, and the paper gasket, for replacement.



It was knackered.



The ROM says you need a slide hammer to pull the half shafts out, thanks for Jeroen and Tony on the facebook group for advice - one half shaft just pulled out with my fingers, the other came out with a tiny bit of force using the key to lever against. Way easier than I was expecting.

Then we reveal the inner seal, which is also knackered.

[DOLOMITE 135]

Sorry somehow missed your reply to my valance photo request,

Thanks for this photo, I think this photo is proof positive that the valance lower lip was extended back, and the mounting holes added to allow fitment of the spoiler:


When compared to a later valance it is noticeably shallower and devoid of the spoiler mounting holes, which explains the join with the bottom of the wings.


As you are so keen on getting you Toledo to it's original build state (which is I think is great), one point on NOS parts. Over time some later Dolomite parts were modified (repainted etc) to be provided as spares for the earlier Toledo's. An example of this is the front grill assemblies, Dolomite 1300 /1500 (and very late Toledo's) used black painted grill assemblies with silver highlights on the horizontal ribs. The silver highlights were in fact painted onto additional raised sections on the horizontal ribs which were not present on the original silver Toledo grills. BL supplied these later grills painted silver under the earlier Toledo part numbers, when compared side to side this difference is noticeable, especially if car has both types fitted.